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Poland's John Paul the Great canonisation this year


jkb - | 198
14 Jul 2013 #151
That is an assumption, in fact you are not able to predict the future.

That is true. Based on current state of science, you cannot prove or disprove existence of some sort of divine entity. So, today, it's a fact that this cannot be done. Anyone who says differently, either made a groundbreaking discovery, or just treats their theory as facts.

There are plenty of scientific theories that remain theories as of this day. They might be facts, but we don't know that yet, and if someone claims them as facts, see above.

Misunderstanding.
If you want to be respected you need to respect your opponent. There are only two kind of posters here those who do respect other people and those who do not respect other people. Being religious or non -religious has nothing to do with it.

Well, yes, of course it has nothing to do with it. But if someone keeps persistently insisting that God exists and they're so confident about it, do you think that in their mind they see it as a theory, or as a fact?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Aug 2013 #152
Merged: JP2 canonisation possibly next April

The canonization of John Paul II may occur in late autumn or spring - said Fr . Cardinal . Stanislaw Dziwisz . He added that he suggested to the Holy Father on the first Sunday after Easter - Divine Mercy Sunday , April 27 .

The decision as to the date of the canonization of John Paul II will be made at the consistory on 30 September.

Cardinal Priest . Stanislaw Dziwisz returned to Krakow after World Youth Day , which this year took place in Rio de Janeiro (Brazil ) . There, Francis announced that the next host World Youth Day in 2016 . Would Kraków .


Card. Dziwisz aid he had proposed to Pope Francis 27th April 2014, the feast of Divine Mercy established by JP2, as the date of his canonisation. So far dates in November and December this year have been metnioned. The decison will be taken at the consistory on 30th September.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
2 Aug 2013 #153
There are only two kind of posters here those who do respect other people and those who do not respect other people.

A good example of this to classify non-believers as sub-humans.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Aug 2013 #154
to classify non-believers

Or to deride believers for allegedly believing in 'fairy tales, superstitions and nonsense'. That in your books must be the epitome of showing respect for others, innit?
Harry
2 Aug 2013 #155
Is it only me who thinks that anybody who preferred to sentence people to a slow painful death rather than let them use a condom shouldn't be allowed to get anywhere being a saint?
bluesfan - | 85
2 Aug 2013 #156
No. Your are not alone in your thinking.
Fortunately many Catholics in Poland choose not to adhere to this and choose instead to 'sin' xD
The low-birth rate in Poland is proof of this :)
Unforunately, the damage that has been done in poorer parts of the world cannot be undone.
That guys has a lot of blood on his hands. Surely he couldn't have met his maker with a clear conscience.
Barney 15 | 1,475
2 Aug 2013 #157
God I love anti Catholic posting in the morning.......................
Ignorant fools
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Aug 2013 #158
to a slow painful death

You would be right if humans were mere animals (the way atheists seem to be). Forutnately, a complete, well-rounded thinking human being has a soul and conscience, knows right from wrong, is not guided by animal instincts and is free to exercise self-control and restraint. He is not some flea-bitten cur that cannot pass up a b*tch in heat.
Polson 5 | 1,771
2 Aug 2013 #159
Forutnately, a complete, well-rounded thinking human being has a soul and conscience, knows right from wrong, is not guided by animal instincts and is free to exercise self-control and restraint.

You're aware that this planet is populated by 7 billion people?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Aug 2013 #160
is populated by 7 billion people

If more of them were taught that 'anything goes' is wrong and the 10 Commandments is the way to go, we'd have a lot fewer problems everywhere.
Polson 5 | 1,771
2 Aug 2013 #161
Among the very Catholic/Christian countries, we can find Mexico and the Philippines for instance. Countries with a high crime rate. The country with the highest crime rate being Honduras, where most of the people declare themselves Christians. Probably the teaching of the Church is not so serious in these places.
Nile 1 | 155
2 Aug 2013 #162
Among the very Catholic/Christian countries, we can find Mexico and the Philippines for instance.

"State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practiced during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Since then, such a policy was repeated only in Revolutionary Mexico and some Marxist-Leninist states"

"Due to the strict enforcement of anti-clerical laws, people in strongly Catholic areas, especially the states of Jalisco, Zacatecas, Guanajuato, Colima and Michoacán, began to oppose him, and this opposition led to the Cristero War from 1926 to 1929, which was characterized by brutal atrocities by both sides. Some Cristeros applied terrorist tactics, while the Mexican government persecuted the clergy, killing suspected Cristeros and supporters and often retaliating against innocent individuals. On May 28, 1926, Calles was awarded a medal of merit from the head of Mexico's Scottish rite of Freemasonry for his actions against the Catholics."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
Polson 5 | 1,771
2 Aug 2013 #163
State promotion of atheism as a public norm

Forcing religion hasn't proved to be any better.
Among the safest countries today, many are in Europe, especially Western Europe, where most of them are secular country (France is among them). The crime rate is the same as Poland.

To be honest, I don't think religion (or the absence of it) has so much to do with this, once again, education, education, education.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
2 Aug 2013 #164
once again, education, education, education.

It depends what is being taught. Nowadays school systems do very little ethical upbringing. Parents are too busy and pass it off on the school. The end result is that kids are raised by advertisers and the entertianment industry, subcultures and the fashion & gadget industry pandering to their passing fads and whims. And we all know that raising a decent young person with high ethical standards is hardly their priority.
Nile 1 | 155
2 Aug 2013 #165
Forcing religion hasn't proved to be any better.

Forcing religion on people occurred ages ago and nowadays holds rather mythical qualities.
Those countries who were promoting atheism (quite recently) happened to be destroying freedom and murdering people in the precess.

once again, education, education, education.

All those bloody tyrannies has been established by educated people.
goofy_the_dog
2 Aug 2013 #166
Very well educated people at that!
In the Christian doctirine there are only two groups of people in the world.
Those that obey the God, and go on the path of their lives with the Holy Spirit... and there is also the other group of people... that go hand in hand with the fallen one.

but there is always hope and forgiveness waiting... as Pope Francis said, Mankind doesnt have the power and should never dare to not give somebody a chance of Gods Mercy!
Polson 5 | 1,771
3 Aug 2013 #167
It depends what is being taught. Nowadays school systems do very little ethical upbringing.

I agree on this, school systems need big, deep changes. And parents do not always do what they have to do.

Forcing religion on people occurred ages ago and nowadays holds rather mythical qualities.
Those countries who were promoting atheism (quite recently) happened to be destroying freedom and murdering people in the precess.

You cannot force neither of them. It's just wrong. You can't force to believe or not believe. As you can't force someone to like carrots if s/he hates them.

In both cases, it will result in violence.

All those bloody tyrannies has been established by educated people.

While religious states were established by ignorants?
When your education includes respect, tolerance, altruism, you're less likely to adhere to blood-spilling ideologies.

that go hand in hand with the fallen one.

Divine mercy, how cute ;) Who are the fallen ones?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Aug 2013 #168
school systems need big, deep changes. And parents do not always do

Just let's forget your negative view of the Church for the sake of disucssion for a moment and focus on consensus and the situation in the US before things began disintegrating.

Round the upbringing of the young the school, Church, parents and the poltical establishment worked together and shared essentially the same values which were inculcated in children. That educational unity fostered such tratis as honesty, decency, respect and the Golden Rule. Over time, the entities that had once worked togetehr became warring rivals, each with their own disintct priorities to the detriment of children and society as a whole.

A salient example was when a parent was called in to school over a child's behaviour or grades, the parent would try to see how to work with the teacher to remedy the situation and the child could expect to be punished (grounded, lose pocket money, etc.).

At present, the parent often attacks to teacher for picking on his/her darling little 'brat'. That makes teachers less inclined to discipline unruly pupils, and instils in the child a sense of impunity, that he can get away with murder.

Does that mean that today's parents support their children better than one or two generations ago? It may seem so. In actuality parents rarely really devote much time to actual child-rearing, to discussing things heart-to-heart , impressing on them ideals and sharing values. Parent-child interaction often amounts to little more than buying kids pricey toys, clothes and gadgets and driving them to sport practice, riding school, language lessons, etc. The parents delude themselves with the feel-good impression they are doing their job, whilst for lack of guidance the kid begins taking his cues from advertisers, the entertainment industry and the 'street' (peer groups).
Zibi - | 336
3 Aug 2013 #169
Parent-child interaction often amounts to little more than buying kids pricey toys, clothes and gadgets and driving them to sport practice, riding school, language lessons, etc. The parents delude themselves with the feel-good impression they are doing their job, whilst for lack of guidance the kid begins taking his cues from advertisers, the entertainment industry and the 'street' (peer groups).

Polo3, how about you tell us how rear YOUR kids, since you claim to be an expert on this topic as well.... ?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Aug 2013 #170
you claim to be an expert

I don't claim to be an expert but I am interested in and try to observe social developments, processes and tendencies. Rather than challenge someone else's expertise, it might be better to present your own alternative observations and the reasons why you think things have developed the way they have. Have you observed the same things? If not, share what you have seen and analysed. I can now see a similar tendency appearing in Poland, at least amongst those who can afford pricey toys and extra lessons to drive kids to.

What is the situation like in countries you are familiar with other than the US and Poland? Of course, your take on the US and Poland is also most welcome.
Polson 5 | 1,771
3 Aug 2013 #171
Just let's forget your negative view of the Church for the sake of disucssion for a moment

This is something I cannot do, as I'm not a religious person. Religions (most of them), basically, are about the personification of a deity, and all the 'rites' and customs that result from it, something I don't, can't adhere to.

I keep thinking values are not the sole property of religions. The best example I can find is myself, I hope this doesn't sound too pretentious, and if it does, it doesn't matter, as long as it illustrates my thinking. My family is not religious, but we respect others, show tolerance and open-mindedness, regularly give money to charities.

Actually, I can think of many people around me who seem to have the same values. Even tho they never followed any of the Church teachings. Their education made them be who they are now. The way I see it, parents are the first in line when it comes to the education of their children (obvious, right?), schools are too often incompetent in many fields.

Of course, parents need to be educated first, before taking care of the education of their kids.
The countries considered the 'best to live in' have no state religion (but freedom to practise any religion), and usually an excellent educational system.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Aug 2013 #172
basically, are about the personification of a deity

And a solid ethical system. The too are inseparabłe. But if you can't deal with it, let's remove the religious element and speak only of the one-time consensus re child-rearing of family, school, poltical establishment, media and entertainment industry. Now each is pulling in its own direction. Do you believe the 'buy and drive' syndrome mentioned above is a good thing? Is the growing commercialism and impersonalism (for instance setting the child in front a DVD contratpion instead of telling or reading him a story) a good thing?
Harry
3 Aug 2013 #173
You would be right if humans were mere animals (the way atheists seem to be). Forutnately, a complete, well-rounded thinking human being has a soul and conscience, knows right from wrong, is not guided by animal instincts and is free to exercise self-control and restraint. He is not some flea-bitten cur that cannot pass up a b*tch in heat.

You seem to forget that your hero told RCC members that they could either not have a normal married life (because they could not have sex because one of them was HIV positive and they could not use condoms) or they could both die of AIDS.

Anyway, back on topic, does anybody know what St JP II is going to be the patron saint of? Perhaps cover-ups? Or condoms?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Aug 2013 #174
because one of them was HIV positive

And they contracted HIV at the dentist's, right? That is a possibility but an extremely rare one. HIV is largely avoidable if one avoids sleeping around, pre- and extra-martial intimacies. A dog cannot do that. A thinking human can!
bluesfan - | 85
3 Aug 2013 #175
Anyway, back on topic, does anybody know what St JP II is going to be the patron saint of? Perhaps cover-ups? Or condoms?

of AIDS.

Sounds about right to me xD
Harry
3 Aug 2013 #176
And they contracted HIV at the dentist's, right? That is a possibility but an extremely rare one. HIV is largely avoidable if one avoids sleeping around, pre- and extra-martial intimacies.

Blood transfusions, drug use, bad medical practices, badly made drugs, there are various possible ways of catching HIV.
But regardless of how it was caught, didn't your Lord once say "Go and sin no more"? So how can you tell people who 'sinned', repented and now want to enjoy a normal married life that they cannot? Who are you to judge them?

And what about the people who haven't 'sinned' but loved and married a person who had? Who are you to tell them that they cannot have a normal married life?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Aug 2013 #177
married a person who had

You're all for artificial scientific or industrially produced things -- condoms, probably dildoes, abortion
pills, abortions, test-tube babies, etc. What's wrong wtih having or, better yet, requiring medical
tests before saiyng 'I do'?


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