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Poland's John Paul the Great canonisation this year


smurf 39 | 1,981
6 Jul 2013 #91
This proves absolutely nothing. One could take any country, organisation, institution or political movment and compile its shortcomings and errors since it came into existence. It's easier with the Catholic Church becuase how many other organisations have been around for over 2,000 years?

It proves a lot.
None are as a blind as those that cannot see.

t was enough to show a video on MTV of Madumma

If you raise your kids to believe that singers/celebrities/sport stars etc. are role models, then you have failed as a parent.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
6 Jul 2013 #92
Actually I think kids should be taught that they have to be honest, respect other people, do not be egoists, not to be materialists, be fair to other people.

And you want to add religion to that, that is your own personal matter. Without religion they will still grow up with ups and downs, as all kids do.

But the basic values stay. For this no religion is necessary. If you see this as an added bonus, fair enough.
Paulina 10 | 1,526
6 Jul 2013 #93
That's not very objective, you don't know what it feels like to not exist ;P

xD
Come on... lol

OK, then everyone has a right to experience both in order to make up their mind what they prefer - existence or nonexistence, don't you think? ;)

How long does it take? Is it all always effective?

How long?
I don't know. I suspect it depends on many things, like: whether the person in question is psychologically strong or not, how brutal the rape was, what type of rape, whether it was a gang rape or not, whether the rape was accompanied by some kind of psychological abuse or not, whether she knew the rapist or not, whether it was a family member or not, whether it was a one time rape, or the raping went for hours, days, months or years, whether the rapist was caught and sentenced or not (it helps to get a closure, a peace of mind), whether the woman has the support of her family, friends, husband, boyfriend, whether she has "a reason to live" and whether she has a good, professional psychotherapist.

An example from an article I've read some time ago:

"She says that since she's been violated her husband won't touch her because he's disgusted by her. So she's on her own: scared, weary and hungry.

I asked her how she found the strength to carry on, and she replied that she had to fight to survive for the sake of her children, but that if she saw the two men who attacked her she would kill them.
"

Btw, if you're interested with the subject of the process of dealing with rape, how it may look like, I think this film is worth watching:

imdb.com/title/tt0378793/

Yes, the main role is played by young Kristen Stewart from "Twilight", but don't be discouraged, the film is good and she actually plays well there :)

Is it all always effective?

I don't know. Probably not. As I wrote - it probably depends on many factors.
And it also depends on what you mean by "effective".
I can imagine it's something that stays with people for the rest of their lives. I guess it's "effective" if you're able to go on with your life after the rape and you don't have nightmares about it every night. I honestly don't know and I hope I'll never experience anything like that.

So older kids are doomed to grow parentless? ;)

Eh... No. Are we going to discuss adoption now? ;P

Well, embryos don't have many feelings, lucky them ;)

Why, you don't like having feelings, Polson? :P

I wish that was true.

Why on Earth you wish that was true? o_O

Are you against abortion in case of health issues

If the pregnancy threats the woman's life then it's a choice between one life and another life. I don't know what is "the good choice" in such a case. It's a tragic choice.

I think in such circumstances, since it's the woman's life that is in danger, it's up to her to decide whether to go on with pregnancy or not, after being provided with all the info about the risk by the doctor.

(for the kid, the mum, and/or both)?

What health issues you have in mind in case of the kid?

With all those LOL's you must have one sick sense of humour.

Funny, you're so outraged by my LOL's (not really quoting to which comments they were addressed and not knowing why I've put them there), but you have no problem with someone saying that an eight month baby in mother's womb isn't a human being because "humans do not suck blood from hosts and do need to breathe".

Psychotherapy. Don't make me laugh. Opinionated and the text book solutions we have had from the 7 we saw in Poland beggar belief.

What were you seeing them about, if you don't mind me asking?

They seem to think you fit the text book to the situation and not the situation to a solution. I guess they all study the same material. Rubbish. Rubbish. Waste of money. I'm sure the English ones are equally up their own bottoms.

I'm sure there are good and bad psychotherapists out there, just like other good and bad doctors. You just have to find a good one, I guess.

You should try and imagine yourself in that predicament with possibly the next rapist growing inside you;

"The next rapist"? Are you saying that every man who's father was a rapist is doomed to be a rapist himself?
And what if the baby is a girl? LOL

but its impossible.

No, it isn't. I'm a woman and although it isn't possible for me to know how it's like I can imagine it. I don't lack imagination or empathy.

I am all for looong sentences for rapists, but not for punishing innocent children.
Here you have some comments by women who are raising children being "the fruits" of rape:

I gave birth to a child from rape, eight years ago, and now the "Father" of my child is in prison. But so what, I live in the countryside and the mother of my perpetrator hates me. Now I do not know if I should trust the father of a man who hurt me, in the end he is the grandfather of my son. He apologized to me many times for what that man did to me and asked that I let him contact with my child? Should I agree ??

f.kafeteria.pl/temat.php?id_p=4545451

You know, I'm starting to wonder about the fact that only men write here on this topic. What about women? Girls, do you have any views on the subject of giving birth to and raising such children?

You are wrong,

Tell that to a pregnant woman.

please do some research.

What research? I am aware of different stages of baby's development. And?

You really need to do more research.
A feotus and a baby are different things.
The first becomes the 2nd, but only after a period of gestation.

Sorry, smurf, but for the parents it is a baby from the very beginning.
It isn't some piece of meat, it's a living organism, and we all know it's a human organism, with a fixed set of genes not to be repeated again.

We aren't animals and therefore we are able to grasp the idea of future, we can think, predict and that's why we know that if the pregnancy isn't aborted a little Katie or a little John will be born. If the fetus will be killed there won't be another Katie or John, there may be Marry or Harry, or Tom or Sean, or Annie or Rachel, but no Katie or John anymore. Just like me and my brother are quite different people. If let's say my mum decided to have an abortion I wouldn't be here writing this.

If your mum decided to have an abortion you wouldn't be here writing that a fetus isn't a baby and it's OK to kill it lol There would be someone else, maybe with completely different views than yours.

By what you are saying in your weak arguments, you think that having a miscarriage could be classed as manslaughter. Which is obviously quite silly.

No, what I wrote was: "If someone would purposely do something to cause a miscarriage to a pregnant woman (against her will, obviously lol),"

Imagine that your girlfriend or wife is pregnant with your baby. Her jealous, crazy ex-bf finds out about it and throws her on the ground and kicks her in her belly and as a result she looses your baby. Will the guy get the same sentence in the court as in the case if your wife/gf wasn't pregnant?

Please learn more about the subject at hand before commenting.

What exactly am I supposed to learn about the subject?
sobieski 107 | 2,128
7 Jul 2013 #94
Polonius3:
the decadent 'anything-goes' permissivist revolutuion you so hotly promote

You make an awful lot of presumptions about me :)
Define permissive revolution.

You still did not define "permissive revolution". And do not start to rant about shopping malls (which I hate), pot-smoking (which I don't, actually I have never smoked in my life).
smurf 39 | 1,981
7 Jul 2013 #95
We aren't animals

I think you'll find that yes, we are. Duh!

I am aware of different stages of baby's development. And?

It doesn't look like you are.

If the fetus will be killed there won't be another Katie or John, there may be Marry or Harry, or Tom or Sean, or Annie or Rachel, but no Katie or John anymore. Just like me and my brother are quite different people. If let's say my mum decided to have an abortion I wouldn't be here writing this.

So, you think men probably shouldn't masturbate then too?
Isn't every sperm sacred, all 600million of them, per ejaculation? We wouldn't be long overpopulating the world in that case.
What about female periods? I mean, in your view that's probably a waste of eggs? Lol

Imagine that your girlfriend or wife is pregnant with your baby. Her jealous, crazy ex-bf finds out about it and throws her on the ground and kicks her in her belly and as a result she looses your baby.

That's the dumbest thing you've ever posted. You've outdone yourself.

Are you saying that every man who's father was a rapist is doomed to be a rapist himself?

If you wish for your child to contain about half the genetic code of the man who raped you then your an idiot. But, yea, go for it, your body, your choice. Let me know how it works out.

What exactly am I supposed to learn about the subject?

lol
goofy_the_dog
7 Jul 2013 #96
People are not animals.
A sperm or an egg is not a human, an embroy is
jon357 63 | 15,615
7 Jul 2013 #97
an embroy is

A human embryo is not a person.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
7 Jul 2013 #98
On the other hand, the decadent 'anything-goes' permissivist revolutuion you so hotly promote

I am still very curious of your definition of the permissive revolution.
smurf 39 | 1,981
7 Jul 2013 #99
People are not animals.

Yes, they quite clearly are. You are very much wrong on you ill-informed opinion.
But that's OK, afterall it's an opinion, however, the fact remains that humans are animals.

Humans (variously Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens) are primates of the family Hominidae, and the only extant species of the genus Homo.[2][3]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

human being (Homo sapiens), a culture-bearing primate that is anatomically similar and related to the other great apes but is distinguished by a more highly developed brain and a resultant capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning.

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/275376/human-being

Yep, we sure are animals.
jkb - | 198
7 Jul 2013 #100
Yes, they quite clearly are. You are very much wrong on you ill-informed opinion.

Probably a follower of the Theory of Divine Science, which doesn't really have anything to do with science at all. When did ignorance become a point of view?
Nile 1 | 155
8 Jul 2013 #101
When did ignorance become a point of view?

Since when disrespect and an insult has become a tool to club people with a different point of view on the head and call it science?
Paulina 10 | 1,526
8 Jul 2013 #102
I think you'll find that yes, we are. Duh!

OK, then I'll put it in a different way.
Humans are much more developed species, that evolved into something like no other species on the face of the Earth.
We can think, speak, write and fly to the Moon lol
If you watch documentaries about animals on TV you'll also know that (other) animals, unlike humans, according to scientists and researchers, aren't capable of grasping the idea of some more distant future. They live in the present, they are only aware of the present time.

So, unlike other animals, we are able to grasp the idea of future, we can think, predict and that's why we know that if the pregnancy isn't aborted a little Katie or a little John will be born, etc. etc.

It doesn't look like you are.

And you're basing this opinion of yours on what exactly?

So, you think men probably shouldn't masturbate then too?

No, you can masturbate to your heart's content lol

Isn't every sperm sacred, all 600million of them, per ejaculation? We wouldn't be long overpopulating the world in that case.
What about female periods? I mean, in your view that's probably a waste of eggs? Lol

Sorry, smurf, we aren't talking about sperm and eggs, but about a new life that already started, I think that's pretty clear.

That's the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

Why? What is dumb about it? You think such things don't happen? For example, I've watched a documentary about a martial law in Poland and there a story was told of a female protester who was pregnant. She was chased into some building by ZOMO policemen and kicked into her belly and she lost her child.

You find that dumb?

If you wish for your child to contain about half the genetic code of the man who raped you then your an idiot.

Noone wishes for being impregnated by a rapist in the first place, I hope you're intelligent enough to know that.
What about you, smurf - do you think every man who's father was a rapist is doomed to be a rapist himself?
And what if the baby is a girl? What then?

But, yea, go for it, your body, your choice. Let me know how it works out.

I don't understand why you have a need to make it so personal and to be so hostile.
Fortunately I don't have to make such a choice, but there are women who had to make a choice and they did, they chose to give birth to and raise those children. Are they idiots?

lol

If those are the best answers you can provide, then I guess there's no point in further discussion.

A human embryo is not a person.

Then when a person starts, according to you, jon357?
jkb - | 198
8 Jul 2013 #103
Since when disrespect and an insult

What are you talking about?

different point of view on the head and call it science?

One can have a different point of view when it comes to opinions. When it comes to facts, it's either being right or being wrong. It's like saying 2+2 is not 4. You call it a different point of view, I call it ignorance.
jon357 63 | 15,615
8 Jul 2013 #104
Then when a person starts, according to you, jon357?

Ask the doctors.
goofy_the_dog
8 Jul 2013 #105
I was once taking part in a discussion about human life. Nobody really knows, when does an embroy become a human being ( not an animal but a human, supreme being). You can see it clealry from a much different legislations of the abortion law around the world. Some countries allow abortion until 8 week where as other allow it until the 12 weeks.

Who is right?
If we are so unsure about it that we cant even set a proper date for it then i think that abortion is utterly wrong.

Abortion is the modern day holocaust of around 30 million babies a year... Wince about the year 2000... 13x30 million is about 390 million lives... Each abortion costs lets say 1000 quid, altho it is probably less now.

So we are talking of an income of more than 30 billion pounds of profit to the pockets of mighty abortion corporations!
John Paul 2 was right we live in the civilization of darkness and Death. On an unimaginable scale.
How many people perished in the holocaust? Ten- fifteen million.. Well ...

Regards
jkb - | 198
8 Jul 2013 #106
Abortion is the modern day holocaust of around 30 million babies a year

Oh boy...
goofy_the_dog
8 Jul 2013 #107
Is oh boy all youve got to say? oO
jkb - | 198
8 Jul 2013 #108
Pretty much, because that statement did not deserve anything else.
delphiandomine 87 | 18,463
8 Jul 2013 #109
mighty abortion corporations!

There are mighty abortion corporations?
goofy_the_dog
8 Jul 2013 #110
Do u think that abortnion clinics are founded by govs?
delphiandomine 87 | 18,463
8 Jul 2013 #111
To give an example - the well known Marie Stopes clinics are run by an NGO, not a private business.

I'd be interested in the names of "mighty abortion corporations" though.
goofy_the_dog
8 Jul 2013 #112
Most abortion clinics are funded supported even run by corporations!
Delphiandomine, you can check it out urself.
jon357 63 | 15,615
8 Jul 2013 #113
Most abortion clinics are funded supported even run by corporations!

They are either voluntary organisations or state funded.
whyikit 6 | 102
8 Jul 2013 #114
I do not think so goofy... although this may depend on the country... Goofy as you are making the statement you should be able to back it up. Or is this just another rant without factual backing?
goofy_the_dog
8 Jul 2013 #115
rhrealitycheck.org/article/2011/11/21/judge-orders-two-michigan-abortion-clinics-closed/

i strongly advise to watch a 180 movie.
Its on youtube.
smurf 39 | 1,981
8 Jul 2013 #116
we aren't talking about sperm and eggs, but about a new life that already started, I think that's pretty clear.

So a sperm isn't a living thing? Oh OK, I see you didn't bother taking biology in school.

I've watched a documentary

watch documentaries

watch documentaries

on TV

You watch way too much TV. Obviously you believe everything it tells you.
Educate yourself.

What then?

Uou think women don't commit rape?
Like I said.
LOL!

I guess there's no point in further discussion

Good, your arguments are weak and neither well thought out nor articulated.

Abortion is the modern day holocaust of around 30 million babies a year

Tinfoil hats at the ready.
The loopy brigade have landed.

are funded supported even run by corporations!

So which are they?
Oh I see, you're making stuff up.
OK.
bluesfan - | 85
8 Jul 2013 #117
According to Italian media reports close to the Vatican, the late Pope John Paul II appears likely to be canonised towards the end of the year. October and December dates have been suggested. Surveys taken in Poland have shown that most Poles regard JPII as the greatest Pole that ever lived. He has been called the Apostle of Life, having condemned all forms of killing: murder, abortion, euthanasia and war. Canonisaiton officiallly elevates a person to Catholic sainthood.

Well, they can make this guy a saint but he and his church will still have the blood of millions on their hands.
I would imagine his soul will spend eternity burning in hell.

In September 1990, John Paul II visited the small town of Mwanza, in northern Tanzania, and gave a speech that many believe set the tone for the AIDS crisis in Africa. Being unequivocal, he told his audience that condoms were a sin in any circumstances. He lauded family values and praised fidelity and abstinence as the only true ways to combat the disease.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS#Pope_John_Paul_II

He failed as a Pope as he forbade the use of something which, ironically, could have saved many lives.
He also refused to grant or even consider women equal status in the church whilst pretecting all kinds of paedophiles.
I could also mention the greed of wealth the complete failure of the church to help the poor... but what's the point?
If this guy is a hero, and a saint... I'd hate to see what an evil and unpopular pope is like...
smurf 39 | 1,981
8 Jul 2013 #118
If this guy is a hero, and a saint... I'd hate to see what an evil and unpopular pope is like...

+1

Well said Blue.
Paulina 10 | 1,526
9 Jul 2013 #119
Ask the doctors.

What doctors? Am I supposed to ask rybnik? lol
I'm asking you, jon357. I'm interested in your opinion. I guess you have one?

So a sperm isn't a living thing? Oh OK, I see you didn't bother taking biology in school.

I was writing about new human life, genius lol For a new human life to start a spermatozoon has to get into the egg cell and only then the whole process begins. We aren't discussing spermatozoons and egg cells, but a zygote and later stages of embryo development. Zygotes contain DNA derived from both parents, and this provides all the genetic information necessary to form a new individual. You understand now? :P

You watch way too much TV.

Actually, I don't :) But I'm rather picky about what I watch, so I usually end up watching some interesting and often educational stuff.

Obviously you believe everything it tells you.

Well, when it's a BBC documentary with David Attenborough in it, then I'm rather trustful :)
I've attended school, smurf, but I like to broaden my knowledge and horizons also by watching documentaries on TV, among others.
Don't you like to get to know new things, smurf? I do.
For example, today I've watched a documentary on Polish TV "Children of Agent Orange". I didn't know about Agent Orange before watching this documentary and what it caused in Vietnam. From watching this documentary you could, for example, learn what you can read in an article on a BBC site: "The US compensates its veterans exposed to the defoliant, but does not compensate Vietnamese nationals."

bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-19190509

Well, I guess that documentary and the BBC article could be lying about this, but I don't see why they would do that.

Educate yourself.

About what exactly? What do I don't know, according to you? You still fail to answer this.

Uou think women don't commit rape?
Like I said.
LOL!

It happens, but very rarely in comparisment to men. So it's highly unlikely that if it's a girl, she'll rape anyone in the future.

But you haven't answered my question - do you think every man who's father was a rapist is doomed to be a rapist himself?

Good, your arguments are weak and neither well thought out nor articulated.

You're yet to prove that, because so far you haven't managed to. Sorry, smurf, but I don't consider comments like "That's the dumbest thing you've ever posted" as strong, well thought out and well articulated counterarguments ;D
goofy_the_dog
9 Jul 2013 #120
Smurf is just funny, i tend to read his posts chuckling from time to time.
Blues, i dont see anything wrong with what john paul II said, marriage isnt just about sex! There married couple with a husband that sexually inactive! They still love themselves the same or even more than normal couples!

Condoms, as I said earlier, are a sin because they show that you dont trust God.
Human beings are not like other animals and with a bit of will we can overcome our insticts.
Take it or leave it.
You loudly shout that Catholic religion should not force its ways upon, ok but we want the same from you!
Want to do something for africa? Surewhy not! But shouting mindless crap is not helping them for sure, however sending money to caritas will.


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