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Poland's John Paul the Great canonisation this year


TheOther 5 | 3,758
4 Jul 2013 #31
John Paul II appears likely to be canonised towards the end of the year.

At the moment they are looking for a second miracle that they can attribute to him to go ahead.

He has been called the Apostle of Life, having condemned all forms of killing: murder, abortion, euthanasia and war.

Sadly, he also protected the kiddy fiddlers in the RCC.
Paulina 10 | 1,526
4 Jul 2013 #32
That really depends ;)

LOL
No, it doesn't, Polson.
If you lack imagination or empathy then I'll help you - would you prefer to be dead or alive?
I'd prefer to be alive. Now, do you have a right to make such choice for a child?

Besides, what if the mum doesn't like the kid?

So she has a right to kill a kid because MAYBE she won't like it? xD
What if she likes the kid?
What if she loves the kid?
Is she able to know this before the child is born?
No, because the bond between the child and the mother starts during the pregnancy and becomes so strong after the child is born that a mother who wants to give her baby to adoption may change her mind about giving it away and she may decide to keep the baby!

After all, it's the result of something very painful, physically and psychologically. What if she CAN'T like the kid? She could get violent with him/her. She could just abandon him/her.

One word: ADOPTION.
Also, the grandma and grandad may like the kid, you know?

Go explain the kid why s/he an unwanted 'bastard'.

Go explain to the kid that he/she is unworthy of living because his/her mum doesn't like him/her.

I mean there's a real problem here.

Of course there is, it isn't nice, it isn't pleasant, but definitely it isn't worth saying someone's life isn't worthy enough.

Noone has a right to say sth like that, to decide about it.

You're not really concerned about the kid, you're concerned about mother's feelings.
Sorry, but I don't think someone's feelings are more important than someone's life.
It isn't even about religion, but about common sense and human decency.
It isn't the kid's fault. The kid shouldn't pay for it with his/hers life.
That's my opinion.

Really? Personally I've never met any children who can only survive by sucking blood from the body of their host. Apparently your experience is otherwise.

Harry, it's all just purposeful semantics, isn't it?
For a woman that wants a child - no matter how early the stage of pregnancy it is, it is her CHILD. Notice that no woman calls her wanted child "a feotus". The child becomes a feotus when it is unwanted. Killing it becomes "an abortion" then. It's easier for the psyche, of course, when you use euphemisms. If the woman wanted a child what would she scream? "You killed my baby, you bastard!"

We all know that "a feotus" is a human being, with a certain set of genes not to be repeated again. It won't grow to be a dog, ffs lol

Honestly, guys, I'm not writing this as a Christian even. I'm writing this as a humanist, a human being. It's logic and biology.

You'd be probably outraged if some cruel as*hole kicked your female pregnant dog to the point that she would loose her puppies.
But if it's about a human being, then nooooo... It's feotus, it isn't alive... lol
What the hell... :/
sobieski 107 | 2,128
4 Jul 2013 #33
Back to the basic question. The church always have and always will be creating saints which fit in their long-term strategy, though tactical considerations also play a part.

Every pope has his agenda, and the producing of saints fits into that. That's all there to it.
Harry
4 Jul 2013 #34
We all know that "a feotus" is a human being

Two of the features of humans is that they do not suck blood from hosts and that they need to breathe oxygen: foetuses suck blood from a host and do not breathe.
Paulina 10 | 1,526
4 Jul 2013 #35
LOL
And where did you get such definition, Harry? xD

So are you saying that a baby in a womb isn't a human being for you and becomes a human being only when it leaves a woman's body? lol
Marek11111 9 | 816
4 Jul 2013 #36
great we will have a saint a person accused of harboring child molesters while cardinal in Poland and while a Pope in charge of a church affairs, it will be a dark mark in Polish history.
Harry
4 Jul 2013 #37
So are you saying that a baby in a womb isn't a human being for you and becomes a human being only when it leaves a woman's body?

I am saying that humans do not suck blood from hosts and do need to breathe. Have you ever met one that needs to suck blood from a host but not to breathe? Has anybody?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Jul 2013 #38
accused of harboring child molesters

Accused by whom? An proof the accusations were grounded? That he knew what was going on and deliberately aided and abetted the paedophiles? Casting random aspersions is easy. Remember, you are badmouthing the one most Poles regard as the greatest Pole in history.
whyikit 6 | 102
4 Jul 2013 #39
The issue which people here will not agree is when does it become a child? Is it the first chemical reaction? Or later in the growth? To be fair noone knows no matter what we believe. Those that feel that is later can agree with abortion those that don't, don't.
Paulina 10 | 1,526
4 Jul 2013 #40
I am saying that humans do not suck blood from hosts and do need to breathe.

They do, when they're still in their mothers' wombs.
No, they're not aliens. They're humans alright lol

Have you ever met one that needs to suck blood from a host but not to breathe? Has anybody?

One only becomes a human when you are able "to meet" him or her?? lol
What kind of peaks of absurdity are you reaching now, Harry? o_O
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
4 Jul 2013 #41
Two of the features of humans is that they do not suck blood from hosts and that they need to breathe oxygen

Those are overshadowed by the fact that an unborn child is a separate human being with its own human DNA often having a blood type different from its mothers. It is a separate entity.

The life of an individual human begins at conception and attempts to label it something else until some future time is an attempt to attain a desired 'social' goal despite the reality that it is a living human organism. That effort is arbitrary which is an odd way to judge whether or not to kill it. The fact that it needs help when still in its mothers womb does not take away its right to life. Many ill or elderly people need help but they are still human.
Polson 5 | 1,771
4 Jul 2013 #42
would you prefer to be dead or alive?

I honestly haven't answered myself this question yet ;)
Well, the question should rather be: would I prefer to be born or not? I certainly don't want to die now.

Is she able to know this before the child is born?

I'm talking about the shock, the deep trauma caused by a rape. This goes beyond simple bonds between a mum and her future child.

Also, the grandma and grandad may like the kid, you know?

My grandparents passed away, and were living too far anyway. What should I do? (well, I'm a boy, but let's say I'm a girl, for a moment ;))

As to adoption, there are already so many kids in orphanages. The idea is interesting maybe, facts are not as optimistic.

You're not really concerned about the kid, you're concerned about mother's feelings.

No, I'm concerned about both, really. When you are concerned about the kid only.

That's my opinion.

And thanks for sharing it ;)
The problem is: when does life 'start'? If we don't agree on this point, we can't agree on the rest.
Anyway, my opinion is not fixed yet, I'm not pretending I know better, and it is a very difficult and sensitive matter.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Jul 2013 #43
he also protected the kiddy fiddlers in the RCC.

In 2004, an already sick and frail Pope John Paul mustered enough energy and determination to take a bold and unprecedented measure. He ordered the closurr of an Austrian seminary where homosexual and paedophilic activities had been reported. That doesn't sound like someone 'soft on deviates', as some Church-bashers claim..
Marek11111 9 | 816
4 Jul 2013 #44
Remember, you are badmouthing the one most Poles regard as the greatest Pole in history

I do not care if he is Pole, wrong is wrong period. you can search for it on line about his knowledge of child molestation while cardinal in Poland.
Paulina 10 | 1,526
4 Jul 2013 #45
I honestly haven't answered myself this question yet ;)
Well, the question should rather be: would I prefer to be born or not? I certainly don't want to die now.

Well, I want to live and I'd prefer to be born. I like existing :P

I'm talking about the shock, the deep trauma caused by a rape.

This is something one can overcome - to a greater or smaller extent, among others, thanks to psychotherapy.

This goes beyond simple bonds between a mum and her future child.

It does or it doesn't. It depends on the person.

My grandparents passed away, and were living too far anyway. What should I do? (well, I'm a boy, but let's say I'm a girl, for a moment ;))
As to adoption, there are already so many kids in orphanages. The idea is interesting maybe, facts are not as optimistic.

There are many kids in orphanages who are at least a few years old. Every couple usually wants a small baby.
You don't want a child who is "a fruit" of a rape? You give it to such couple. It's a win-win situation.

No, I'm concerned about both, really. When you are concerned about the kid only.

No, Polson, all what I'm saying is: life is more important then feelings. You can deal with feelings, but only when you're alive lol

The right to live, cherishing the life of every individual is a fundamental value of our humanistic civilisation.

Polson, I'm a woman, I can imagine what a raped woman must be going through and the feelings that she must be experiencing when she finds out that the rapist got her pregnant probably better than you. Of course it would be a difficult decision, but, you know, women besides feelings have also a brain and often a conscience, or empathy if you like, too.

Also, there are not raped women who gave birth to their children and don't love them, treat them badly or even kill them.

The problem is: when does life 'start'? If we don't agree on this point, we can't agree on the rest.

Well, all I need is logic and biology textbook from secondary school to decide about it, tbh... Some basic human ethics and humanism won't hurt either... ;)
TheOther 5 | 3,758
4 Jul 2013 #46
That doesn't sound like someone 'soft on deviates'

Depends on how you look at it: nytimes.com/2011/04/24/opinion/24dowd.html?_r=0
Polson 5 | 1,771
5 Jul 2013 #47
I like existing :P

That's not very objective, you don't know what it feels like to not exist ;P

This is something one can overcome - to a greater or smaller extent, among others, thanks to psychotherapy.

How long does it take? Is it all always effective?

Every couple usually wants a small baby.

So older kids are doomed to grow parentless? ;)

You can deal with feelings, but only when you're alive

Well, embryos don't have many feelings, lucky them ;)

Also, there are not raped women who gave birth to their children and don't love them, treat them badly or even kill them.

I wish that was true.

Are you against abortion in case of health issues (for the kid, the mum, and/or both)?
xzqbq7 2 | 104
5 Jul 2013 #48
Besides, what if the mum doesn't like the kid?

Ever heard of 'okna zycia'?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Jul 2013 #49
xzqbq7
Okna ┼╝ycia are a good innovation. In fact, shouildn't women who don't wantt their baby or if it was the fruit of a crime bear them and give them up for adoption rather than have them btuchered. There are many childless couples who would do anything to be akle to adopt.

Polonius3: According to the Churchthe earth was flat.

This proves absolutely nothing. One could take any country, organisation, institution or political movment and compile its shortcomings and errors since it came into existence. It's easier with the Catholic Church becuase how many other organisations have been around for over 2,000 years?
sobieski 107 | 2,128
5 Jul 2013 #50
Remember, you are badmouthing the one most Poles regard as the greatest Pole in history

The majority of the world's Catholics do not live in Poland, and many of them are very critical of this newest saint production.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Jul 2013 #51
newest saint production

JP2 was once asked why he had beatified and canonised so many people. His reply: People are raised to to the altar because they led exemplary Christian lives and are an example to emulate. And in our confused and disorderly world good examples are needed more than ever before.

Before you start blasting again, ask yourself: who are today's role models for people, esepcially the young?
jkb - | 198
5 Jul 2013 #52
who are today's role models for people, esepcially the young?

Thankfully, not the Pope.
Ant63 13 | 408
5 Jul 2013 #53
This is something one can overcome - to a greater or smaller extent, among others, thanks to psychotherapy.

With all those LOL's you must have one sick sense of humour.

Psychotherapy. Don't make me laugh. Opinionated and the text book solutions we have had from the 7 we saw in Poland beggar belief. They seem to think you fit the text book to the situation and not the situation to a solution. I guess they all study the same material. Rubbish. Rubbish. Waste of money. I'm sure the English ones are equally up their own bottoms.

You should try and imagine yourself in that predicament with possibly the next rapist growing inside you; but its impossible.
Nile 1 | 155
5 Jul 2013 #55
You should try and imagine yourself in that predicament with possibly the next rapist growing inside you; but its impossible.

I think that posters here relay too much on their imagination not on facts and reality.
John Paul will be a saint for the Roman Catholic Church and all Catholics. "In the Church, the title of Saint refers to a person who has been officially recognized by the Catholic Church, and is therefore believed to be in Heaven."

If you disagree and you are a Catholics that is your problem, nobody force you to believe it to be true.
If you are not a Catholic that issue do not concern you at all.
You should ask yourself what are you doing here? Spewing Virol and hate doesn't make a good person out of you.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Jul 2013 #56
Thankfully, not the Pope.

If the Pope and saints are not role models for people today, then who is?
ylzmichal 3 | 13
5 Jul 2013 #57
Those who don't suggest the Pope might suggest Palikot as a role model.
jon357 63 | 15,615
5 Jul 2013 #59
I notice that John XXIII, perhaps the greatest of Twentieth Century Popes is expected to be canonised before the year is out.

Both were remarkable people, both have fulfilled the specific requirements, namely that the RCC accepts they have performed miracles, that they have a cult around them and that they had squeaky clean personal lives. Their supporters will have cause for celebration over the next few months.
Harry
5 Jul 2013 #60
they had squeaky clean personal lives.

Well, apart from that whole covering up the RCC's paedophile priest problem. And the 'it's better to die of AIDS than to use a condom when having sex with your HIV-infected partner' thing.


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