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Poland's John Paul the Great canonisation this year


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #1
thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/140171,John-Paul-II-canonization-this-December

According to Italian media reports close to the Vatican, the late Pope John Paul II appears likely to be canonised towards the end of the year. October and December dates have been suggested. Surveys taken in Poland have shown that most Poles regard JPII as the greatest Pole that ever lived. He has been called the Apostle of Life, having condemned all forms of killing: murder, abortion, euthanasia and war. Canonisaiton officiallly elevates a person to Catholic sainthood.
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2013  #2
having condemned

He also condemned condoms and other forms of contraception, doing nothing to help the fight against AIDS.
There's a lot of blood on his hands, & not only from the AIDS crisis:

Also:

In response to wholesale murders of innocents, grinding poverty and oppression by a handful of oligarchs, many in the Church in South and Central America embraced Christ's often stated values about caring for the poor and oppressed. (A message central to Christ's actual teachings, as opposed to any word about birth control, homosexuality or the supremacy of men over women).

This new Catholic teaching embraced things like land reform, still today a central issue of basic justice in countries where 99% of the land and wealth both are controlled by far less than 1% of the people. John Paul seemed completely unable to grasp the difference between the peasant's struggle for basic human dignity and the Soviet State, even when his own Archbishops, like Oscar Romero, traveled to Rome to talk about it.

Instead, Pope John Paul II told Romero (who was later assassinated by the very people John Paul urged him to cooperate with) to shut up and stop stirring up the people. When he travelled to Nicaragua in 1986, he told the crowd again to shut up and give up "unacceptable ideological commitments."

kuro5hin.org/story/2005/4/3/231846/1970

And let's not forget that his holiness did nothing while child sex abuse was rife in his organisation...well, actually he did something, he gave the green light to bishops to move abusive priests around to different parishes.

If they want to make him a saint after the above, yea, go for it, but they won't be winning over anybody who knows the truth of Karol's conservative Roman reign.

One of the most basic principals of humanity is protecting our children. One of the main precepts of Judaism and Islam is obeying the laws of the land in which they live. But Church officials don't believe this. In fact, they were accessories after the fact to unknown thousands of molestations, following Canon law, rather than the Civil law of the countries where this thing was rampant. That half a dozen bishops and archbishops and cardinals were not indicted as accessories to these crimes speaks to a flaw in democracy.

Pope John Paul II spoke incessantly about the evils of women being ordained, use of condoms and abortion. In fact, Canon law holds that getting an abortion is an issue of automatic excommunication. But priest child molesters were not defrocked, they were not turned in to civil authorities to answer for crimes, they were not excommunicated. In fact they were protected by the church and allowed to continue their reign of terror over Catholic children.

If I was Polish I certainly would not be proud of the Wadowice man and it's a shame here that people don't know the truth about his time as leader. Instead choosing to believe the propaganda they are feed by the church in Poland and the too-scared-to-mention-it media.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
4 Jul 2013  #3
Saints are created by the church for political purposes of the day.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #4
for political purposes

Wrong! People are elevated to sainthood to serve as an example to the faithful. Unlike liberal-leftist bigots who are opposed to the death penalty but support killing the unborn and euthanising the old and useless, and unlike the right-wing fanatics who are for the death penalty but oppose abortion and euthanasia, JPII was opposed to all forms of killing our fellowman. Which are you -- a liberal-leftist bigot or a rigth-wing fanatic?
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2013  #5
People are elevated to sainthood to serve as an example to the faithful.

Read my post again, if they are qualities wanted by the rcc, then all I can say is Ha!

JPII was opposed to all forms of killing our fellowman

Not by AIDS he wasn't.

Saints are created by the church for political purposes of the day

That's very true, look at how JP called Aloysius Stepinac a martyr & was beatified.
Stepinac was

was pro-Ustaše, tolerated the mass killings of Orthodox Serbs in Jasenovac and their forced conversion to Catholicism.

Here's a pic of Archbishop Stepinac with the Croatian Parliament president Marko Došen giving Nazi salute at an official ceremony.
Charming, JP beatified this man! WTF!


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #6
The so-caleld Theology of Liberation whose posters showed Jesus wielding an assault rifle was rejected as unacceptable. The Church does not condone violence in any shape or form. Solidarity had the Church's support becaseu it was a bloodless revolution carried out under the Cross of Christ.

Contraceptives run counter to procreation. The rhythm method was a compromise but it can be compared to the compromise the Pharisees asked about as regards divorce. They said Moses had allowed them to draft a letter or divorce if their wife was unfaithful, but Jesus explained that was to accommodate the hard-hearted. (Don't recall the exact words - perhaps PF's resdient Bible-quoting atheist will know the exact chapter and verse).
whyikit 6 | 102
4 Jul 2013  #7
So someone who is raped they should not have the right to abort the child? For condoms if someone who is HIV positive has unprotected sex this is ok? In your view this is not attempted murder if not murder?
goofy_the_dog
4 Jul 2013  #8
So someone who is raped they should not have the right to abort the child?

Why should a child suffer the consequences of rape?

For condoms if someone who is HIV positive has unprotected sex this is ok? In your view this is not attempted murder if not murder?

It is still a human life, as precious as yours, or mayby even more precious? Who are you to decide who should live or not? I have met children with terminal illnesses, they all wanted to live the same as you do.

If the world would be running as you would like it to, then many people, (like me) would not be alive. Abortion is always an unjustifiable murder. Deal with it.

Regards
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #9
Under Polish law, rape is one of the circumstancs that allow baby-butcerhing. Unfortuantely Tusk has reneged on the issue of chemical castration of rapists which could have seved as a deterrent to would-be rapists.

Also, shouldn't situations that foster the spread of HIV/AIDS be restricte by law. For instance making it a crime for a HIV-positive person to engage in casual sex without informing the partner of his positive status.
Harry
4 Jul 2013  #10
Contraceptives run counter to procreation.

Condoms allow married couples to still have a completely loving relationship if one of them is infected with HIV. Only complete scum would tell a married couple that they cannot use condoms even if one of them has HIV.
whyikit 6 | 102
4 Jul 2013  #11
Why should a child suffer the consequences of rape?

So it is OK for the women to suffer these consequences then?

It is still a human life, as precious as yours, or mayby even more precious?

Exactly but if the person were not to use a condom they are in effect murdering the person they have slept with by infecting them with HIV? But in the views, I think, of yours and Polonius3 this is fine.
Polson 5 | 1,771
4 Jul 2013  #12
Why should a child suffer the consequences of rape?

Well, s/he will, eventually. 'Hey, honey, you know, your dad, you never saw him, he's the guy who raped your sweet mummy and then disappeared, he apparently raped 2 or 3 more women after me, so this is your daddy, happy birthday, honey!'
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #13
Here is the official teaching. You can accept or reject it, but I didn't make it up. Every Catholic in good standing is expected to accept it.

The Catholic Church is opposed to artificial contraception and orgasmic acts outside of the context of marital intercourse. This belief dates back to the first centuries of Christianity.Such acts are considered intrinsically disordered because of the belief that all licit sexual acts must be both unitive (express love), and procreative (open to procreation). The only form of birth control permitted is abstinence. Modern scientific methods of "periodic abstinence" such as natural family planning (NFP) were counted as a form of abstinence by Pope Paul VI in his 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_birth_control
Harry
4 Jul 2013  #14
Exactly but if the person were not to use a condom they are in effect murdering the person they have slept with by infecting them with HIV? But in the views, I think, of yours and Polonius3 this is fine.

In their view is is not only fine, it is the only acceptable thing to do.
whyikit 6 | 102
4 Jul 2013  #15
Harry, sadly I know this

So murder is ok as long as the death is not straight away. Very christian. ...
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #16
Ever hear of restraint? A humane and thinking HIV-positive person also has the opiton of abstinence until he is cured. People are not dogs whose animal instinct forces them to react to every ***** in heat.
Polson 5 | 1,771
4 Jul 2013  #17
until he is cured

The thing is it is not yet curable.

People are not dogs whose animal instinct forces them to react to every ***** in heat.

People still have needs, as Christian as they may be.

I'm not completely anti-religious, but sometimes it sounds just too theoric. Reality is different, it's not just nice words in a holy book.
Harry
4 Jul 2013  #18
People still have needs, as Christian as they may be.

Priests certainly do, which is why so many of them have unofficial wives, or just abuse children.
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2013  #19
Why should a child

A feotus is not a child, duh.

Abortion is always an unjustifiable murder

You cannot murder something that isn't born. Fact.
Deal with it.

This belief dates back to the first centuries of Christianity

Yet had nothing to do with the teaching of Jesus.
It was church leaders who made up this poppy-cock, like not allowing female priests, even though Jesus' wife Mary Magdalene was a prominent leader of the early Chrsitian sect.

Ever hear of restraint?

Ever heard of don't be a fool, wrap your tool?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #20
A feotus is not a child

According to the Church, a foetus is a budding human life and its wanton destruciton is murder. Plain adn simple. Accept or reject.
whyikit 6 | 102
4 Jul 2013  #21
But still no comment on the impact to the female.... Although from your other posts females are just possessions so their view doesn't count.

So if you were raped you wouldn't want them to use condom?
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2013  #22
According to the Church

the earth was flat.
women could be witches.
the sun revolved around the earth.
the earth was 4000 years old.
Charles Darwin make up evolution.
mary was a virgin.
a talking snake asked a woman made from the rib of a man to eat an apple, she then tempted him to eat it.
women can't be priests, even though Jesus' wife Mary Magdalene was a church leader.
John Wycliffe was a bad guy.
you could pay to have your sins forgiven & get into heaven.
the crusades were worth it.
in the 17th century the beaver was ruled to be a fish
Pope Pius XI was against women's emancipation
Slavery is OK

Plain adn simple

it's all there for ya man.

Accept or reject

Accept or reject.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
4 Jul 2013  #23
Wrong! People are elevated to sainthood to serve as an example to the faithfu

Saints always have been business and/or politics in the church. I already see now PIS claiming the whole JPII thing.
In the Middle Ages (and later on) relics were a great source of income. And every pope has created saints which he thought could be useful or practical.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #24
has created saints which he thought could be useful or practical.

Hasn't the hedonistic popcommercialism you so espouse also created its own saints and heretics? Doesn't it have its highpriests, sacraments and liturgy, although they may not be called that. Its shopping malls, stadiums and rock arenas are its basilicas and cathedrals and the computer the altar at which millions worship. Nothing has changed -- only a minor reshuffle. Some beleive in Christianity, otehrs in the commercial exploitation of the gullible masses. Take your pick.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
4 Jul 2013  #25
Its shopping malls, stadiums and rock arenas

It is really none of your business, but I hate shopping malls and shopping in general - I leave that to my daughters -, never go to any stadium (I think football is stupid) and rock arenas neither. I prefer Jazz in Tygmunt :). Do you always think in and/or by the way?

I am a middle-of-the-road guy who prefers to have a quiet weekend, wash the car do the weekend shopping (unfortunately), we go with friends to the cinema or for a strolll in Pole Mokotowskie and grill in Lolek.

If this is espousing popcommercialism. You really do have an obsession.

the computer the altar at which millions worship

You seem to spend all your life behind the computer.
Harry
4 Jul 2013  #26
Some beleive in Christianity, otehrs in the commercial exploitation of the gullible masses.

And some believe that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
4 Jul 2013  #27
I heard that notion recently for the first time. That history doesn't exist and the universe is all a kind of mental projection. This is pretty weighty stuff -- hard to digest all at once. I wonder if the virtual world mentaltiy that surrounds us and films Matrix haven't inspired such thinking. I don't know, just wondering.
Paulina 9 | 1,448
4 Jul 2013  #28
OK, I have to intervene here for a moment lol

A feotus is not a child, duh.

It is, duh lol

You cannot murder something that isn't born. Fact.

No, no fact. You can murder something that isn't born, if it's alive. Duh o_O
If someone would purposely do something to cause a miscarriage to a pregnant woman (against her will, obviously lol), he or she wouldn't be persecuted for murder? o_O

Honestly, what is wrong with you people...

Well, s/he will, eventually. 'Hey, honey, you know, your dad, you never saw him, he's the guy who raped your sweet mummy and then disappeared, he apparently raped 2 or 3 more women after me, so this is your daddy, happy birthday, honey!'

Sorry, Polson, but that's still better than not being born... lol

That's just my two cents :)
Polson 5 | 1,771
4 Jul 2013  #29
Sorry, Polson, but that's still better than not being born...

That really depends ;) Besides, what if the mum doesn't like the kid? After all, it's the result of something very painful, physically and psychologically. What if she CAN'T like the kid? She could get violent with him/her. She could just abandon him/her. Go explain the kid why s/he an unwanted 'bastard'.

I mean there's a real problem here.
Harry
4 Jul 2013  #30
smurf: A feotus is not a child, duh.
It is, duh lol

Really? Personally I've never met any children who can only survive by sucking blood from the body of their host. Apparently your experience is otherwise.


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