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Jaruzelski dead / his legacy in Poland


Harry
28 May 2014 #91
Yes, but when I click that I'm told "Reszta artykułu dostępna dla naszych prenumeratorów", which unless my Polish has got much worse basically says 'Subscribers only'.
goofy_the_dog
28 May 2014 #92
SRight, as promised then,
These are the sources confirming that Jaruzelski was an antisemite:

Prof. Paczkowski has no doubt - Jaruzelski was one of the people opting for anti-Semitic purges in the army or the shameful invasion of Czechoslovakia. The movie is one-sided. And why? Because it is right-wing, because it has been aired on television linked to PiS (an "argument" of progressive Wojciech Mazowiecki). In today's Poland, what the Left says is objective, for an example when Jeruzelski presents his veiled version of events.Comrade does not comment Towarzysz General.(...) After all, you could invite the defense authorities of the WSI, informers, apologists for the suppression of the "Prague Spring", shooting for the workers, anti-Semitism.

Experience has shown that the problems of Zionism are based in most of the Comrades of the Jewish origin, but we did not have such understanding of the problem. New events that revealed this state of affairs began to take shape after the formation of the state of Israel in 1948, and then were much brighter after the Israeli aggression in 1956.

Edit:
To any defender of Jaruzelski, I invite to search and watch a film under a title: "Towarzysz General".. don't think that it will change your opinion.. but to those that have a very shady knowledge of this Persona non Grata maybe it will shed some light?
Lenka 3 | 2,558
28 May 2014 #93
Cardinal Nycz said that the two days to the funeral he will spend on prayer and everyone should do the same. He also said Jaruzelski is tragic and controvensial figure but any summary should be made after the funeral. It's nice to see a clergyman with such sensible attitude.

Two days have been to the funeral of General Jaruzelski Let's spend in prayer. In this way, should be accompanied by family and yourself dead - calls for Cardinal Kazimierz Nycz . - General is a tragic character , and controversial , but the time for settlement will be on May 30 - the cardinal added .
Harry
28 May 2014 #94
I'm not a Catholic but I know his voice may reach some of the ppl who are.

Yes, but most of the people who are planning to protest at the funeral think that they are better Catholics than the Cardinal.

Maybe you are not aware of it - since you escaped to the UK - but Cardinal Nycz has another opinion as you

Actually it was his parents who moved to UK.

Harry, on the main forums, you need to be discussing the title of the thread and not other members.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
28 May 2014 #95
Yes, but most of the people who are planning to protest at the funeral think that they are better Catholics than the Cardinal.

True and some of them just want to cause trouble.
Harry
28 May 2014 #96
This scum should be handed directly to his russian friends (masters) an antisemite, a slaughterer of Poles and Ukrainians should not be even placed on a Polish soil.

Thanks for sharing that view with us, goofy, but we people of Poland will decide who is and is not buried in our country.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
29 May 2014 #97
The decission has been made- Jaruzelski will be buried on Powązki
Good! That's exactly here he belongs.

I happened to be living in Poland at the time Jaruzelski declared a state of emergency. It as very scary. I don't remember a single person, not a one, cursing him or declaring him a traitor. I think history's going to be kind to him.
goofy_the_dog
29 May 2014 #98
Sobieski all i know is that theres plenty of associations of Polish patriits (not talking about nationalists) that are opposing this burial.
If u only made this rather short post to troll then to answer your question i dont know i have never actually met those ppl.

Why isnt anyone speaking about the family of the victims?
Surely they should be able to decide.
Harry
29 May 2014 #99
Translation to English please.

Can't you just run it through google translate? That is what you have done with the 'sources' you quote from in your first post in this thread.

Here, let me give you a very rough translation (only the second half, remember the 100-word rule you completely ignore in your first post):
For me it is a completely incomprehensible attitude. If in such a situation I introduced martial law, I'd bet that a few thousand people may die; and if it turned out that only a few were killed, I'd jumped with joy, and not worry! In 1982 the General not a politician, not a military leader, he only wanted there to be peace and order, no Soviets invading Poland and Solidarnosc not starting a civil war ...

Prof. Norman Davies is right calling the introduction of martial law in 1981, "the most perfect military coup in the history of modern Europe." However, although that the tool was excellent, was anything accomplished with its help?

Accusing the General of causing loss of life is absurd. Yesterday I listened to Adam Słomka call for him to be sentenced for his ciphertext authorizing the military to shoot people. But just a few days ago, parliament passed a law authorizing the military to do exactly the same! Is voting for this act realizing that if in a riot and military uses weapons, the Interior Minister will be condemned and those who voted for this law will be prosecuted in the same way?!? This is absurd: the police and the army weapons so they can use those weapon
Lenka 3 | 2,558
29 May 2014 #100
plenty of associations of Polish patriits (not talking about nationalists) that are opposing this burial.

The only organization opposing that I heard of was IPN ( I wouldn't call it an association of Polish patriots) and as was stated by some politician (can't remember the name) they have no voice in this. They are supposed to be research facility.
goofy_the_dog
29 May 2014 #101
Some people should stop reading Michnik's propaganda and search for the info on more independent sites than gazeta.pl, onet, nteria or rfm.pl

Sources:

We will gather in silence, and stand there with a rosary - quotes the Law and Justice MP for fronda.pl portal.

We call for the protest with whistles, trumpets, etc. to disturb the service for the peace of a soulf of a bloody dictator and traitor.

He was no hero, on the contrary, as a general he betrayed Poland and served Moscow until the end of his days

Interestingly I could not find any sources claiming that the IPN want to do a protest.. if that is tru egreat (the more the better) but Lenka, please could you share a source please?

Kindest Regards
Lenka 3 | 2,558
29 May 2014 #102
Your links:
One, Pieta is just an MP not an association of patriots.
Next two (the same organzation I see) - organization of past and FUTURE(? hahaha) political prisoners? Again, to me it doesn't hold any signifance. An organization that is basically unknown to Poles. I would pay more attention to Pieta's words since he actually may convince some Poles.

The Republic of Poland is built on a foundation of values ​​such as independence , freedom , truth and human dignity. In the post-war period of enslavement in their defense became tens of thousands of Poles , many of whom paid a high price - the loss of life, health or freedom. Among those who from the beginning of the dictatorship of the Communist fought with these values ​​was Wojciech Jaruzelski , "- said in a statement the president of IPN Lukasz Kaminski .

Is this enough for you?
rybnik 18 | 1,462
29 May 2014 #103
Ukraine now is perfect example what might have happened, my family member saw army on Polish border...

Lenko,
one needn't go to the Polish border. The Red Army was stationed at all the major cities just ready to spring into action
Lenka 3 | 2,558
29 May 2014 #104
Well Rybnik, you were here but Goofy doesn't believe witnesses, he needs a proof in a historic book but probably only one that supports his view.
goofy_the_dog
29 May 2014 #105
And vice verca to u lenka.
Tvn24.. ;)
So not only do the organisations that you didnt know about, catholic societies created around Fronda.pl and a polish MP but also a partially state funded IPN is against Jaruzelskis burial on powazki?

Dammm.
Harry
29 May 2014 #106
he needs a proof in a historic book but probably only one that supports his view.

Perhaps a picture might help him? Here's a map from a Czech army officer showing where the forces they knew about (and part of) were going to:

map of Warsaw Pact invasion from the west
sobieski 107 | 2,128
29 May 2014 #107
catholic societies created around Fronda.pl and a polish MP

fronda is a fascist mouthpiece. And for that mp...even his own party distances itself from his initiative.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
30 May 2014 #108
I happened to be living in Poland at the time Jaruzelski declared a state of emergency.

Now don't be a silly boy Rybnik. This is not time for opinions. Poland was split exactly 50/50 as to whether Martial Law was illegal or not. It was called a referundum.

And the educated amongst us know he was a wrong-un and should have been buried years ago.
f stop 25 | 2,513
31 May 2014 #109
And the educated amongst us

I agree with Rybnik. And I don't know what education you got, Dougpol, but I don't think it's good enough to speak for other educated people.
OP jon357 66 | 16,977
31 May 2014 #110
I agree with Rybnik

Me too. He was, above any other consideration, there at the time.

This is not time for opinions.

It's a discussion forum.

Here's a map from a Czech army officer showing where the forces they knew about (and part of) were going to:

That's quite scary. I've seen Soviet-era maps of my home town (the industry there would have been of interest in times of war) however to see part of the actual battle plan to come into PL so recently is chilling. The General at least pre-empted that.

the educated amongst us

Your post doesn't suggest your education stretched to using English well.
Lolek2
31 May 2014 #111
Is he coming back? If not I don't see problem.

he was a wrong-un

Yes, he was.

happened to be living in Poland at the time Jaruzelski declared a state of emergency. It as very scary. I don't remember a single person, not a one, cursing him or declaring him a traitor.

You sound like a nice chap but you are a naive person.
OP jon357 66 | 16,977
1 Jun 2014 #112
Is he coming back?

That would depend on metaphysics and religion.

Yes, he was.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, however a broader consensus is that his career and term of office as leader were in times so unusual that conventional moral benchmarks are inappropriate.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
2 Jun 2014 #113
the New York Times summary of his life:

For decades before that, as a career officer and party official, he dutifully worked to entrench Soviet-directed Communism in Poland, an effort that even Stalin, its instigator, recognized as futile, likening it to "putting a saddle on a cow."

nytimes.com/2014/05/26/world/europe/gen-wojciech-jaruzelski-polands-last-communist-leader-dies-at-90.html
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
3 Nov 2015 #114
I don't remember a single person, not a one, cursing him or declaring him a traitor.

Come to Katowice then, and I'll introduce you to 10,000. Palpable nonsense. If the mob could have laid hands on him at that time, according to my circles, there wouldn't have been a bone left unbroken.

Next?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Feb 2016 #115
Merged: Watch "Towarzysz Generał" on TVP Historia tonight at 9 PM

Be sure to watch the documentary "Towarzysz Generał" on TVP Historia tonight at 9 PM. This film was kept shelved by the PO regime so as not to offend the sensibilities of those who regard Jaruzelski as (believe it or not!) "a man of honour".
OP jon357 66 | 16,977
3 Feb 2016 #116
Didn't you make a thread about this earlier today that was merged into another?


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