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Jaruzelski dead / his legacy in Poland


OP jon357 66 | 16,977
25 May 2014 #31
Now Newsweek can publish the final interview. The one he only let them publish after his death. The first part is on their website already, though it's very slow loading probably due to the number of people reading it.
sylvio
25 May 2014 #33
Merged: Jaruzelski should be declared a Saint

...for saving Poland from the Russian invasion.
Wulkan - | 3,250
25 May 2014 #34
for saving Poland from the Russian invasion.

Again, there was no evidence of Russian army prepering for invading Poland. It's just his made up excuse for his own mistake.
Harry
25 May 2014 #35
No evidence the Warsaw Pact armies were ready to invade Poland? There's more than a few Czech officers who say otherwise. But let's not let facts get in the way of people who abandoned Poland insulting a man who fought for Poland.
Lenka 3 | 2,558
25 May 2014 #36
I'm reading his inteview right now and...whatever you may say about him, he was used to self- criticism and reflection, it's more than you can say about most politicians.

Even if he is a person that is not crystal clear- I respect him. He showed class many times (e.g. order sybiraków i Lech Kaczyński) and to me he's not a hero but not a person to put trash on as well.
Wulkan - | 3,250
26 May 2014 #37
But let's not let facts get in the way of people who abandoned Poland insulting a man who fought for Poland.

Nobody cares about your personal issues you have with some members of this forum.

If he is a 'national hero' to you then why there will be no 'national mourning' after his death?
OP jon357 66 | 16,977
26 May 2014 #38
A lot of bad people had interesting lives. Hitler had a very interesting life.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I'm reading his inteview right now and...whatever you may say about him, he was used to self- criticism and reflection, it's more than you can say about most politicians.Even if he is a person that is not crystal clear- I respect him. He showed class many times (e.g. order sybiraków i Lech Kaczyński) and to me he's not a hero but not a person to put trash on as well.

Yes. He's too complicated to dismiss just as the times he lives in are too complicated for the very young to generalise about.
goofy_the_dog
26 May 2014 #39
Read up on Jaruzelskis vile antisemitism in the 60s.
Finally his dead... Shame that he never actually begged for forgiveness from the people and God.. Id forgive him then but because he didnt may he bethe forgotten... And casted into dark corners of the Polish history as a traitor, antisemite, butcher and a Soviet agent.
Harry
26 May 2014 #40
If he is a 'national hero' to you then why there will be no 'national mourning' after his death?

Perhaps I'm not the Polish nation? Or perhaps with figures as divisive as the General, it's best to keep things low key: some people clearly lack even the most basic of manners and sense of respect, as demonstrated by things such as booing and heckling during a ceremony commemorate those who died fighting in the Warsaw uprising.

He's too complicated to dismiss just as the times he lives in are too complicated for the very young to generalise about.

One certainly hopes that they still have time to grow up.
puss
26 May 2014 #41
It's impossible to paint a true picture of the man at the moment. Too much emotion; not enough data. Although history may eventually side with those who say he represented the lesser of two evils, it is hard to reject the genuine complaints of those who were imprisoned and tortured, or worse, during the emergency. Our builder remembers passing blood in a police cell after a kicking by the police, and I can't argue with him when he raises a glass to the general's demise.
goofy_the_dog
26 May 2014 #42
May he rot in hell.. For all the Poles that he helped to kill in the 1945-6 AK NSZ WiN ZWZ For all the jews that he helped to kick out, for the invasion of czechoslovakia, for betraying his commie friends and of course for the Brethrens blood that he had spilled.
Harry
26 May 2014 #43
it is hard to reject the genuine complaints of those who were imprisoned and tortured, or worse, during the emergency.

It's impossible to reject their complaints. However, their complaints are balanced by the knowledge that if they didn't have those complaints, a lot more people would have had more serious complaints. Given the way a lot of Poles behave, it's hard to see a Warsaw pact invasion ending in anything other than a bloodbath with tens of thousands of deaths.

the 1945-6 AK NSZ WiN ZWZ

a) At no time did the General fight the AK.
b) It is very interesting that you both criticise him by claiming that he was anti-semitic but at the same time criticise him for fighting against organisations which murdered Jews for being Jews.
goofy_the_dog
26 May 2014 #44
Read up harry.
There was no actual threat though jaruzelski tried to make russians move in they rejected it of hand.
America would defend Poland.
ONR people went to the gas chambers for protecting jews, NSZ liberated concentration camps full of Poles and Jews... Please do not talk bad of our Fallen.
OP jon357 66 | 16,977
26 May 2014 #45
Our builder remembers passing blood in a police cell after a kicking by the police, and I can't argue with him when he raises a glass to the general's demise.

That happened in Poland during the Second Republic and still happens now. Not that it absolves the PRL of blame for such things.
Harry
26 May 2014 #46
There was no actual threat though jaruzelski tried to make russians move in they rejected it of hand.

Again goofy, there are Czech army officers who were right there at the time and they entirely disagree with the view you put forward two and a half decades after the event.

America would defend Poland.

ROFL!!! Even if America wanted to do a thing to defend Poland, where would the American troops have come from? And even if there was anywhere for them to have come from, none would have come: nobody was going to start another world war just because Poles didn't like their government.

ONR people went to the gas chambers for protecting jews

Some did; however far more of them carried on with the violent anti-semitism which had characterised them before WWII and after the war.

NSZ liberated concentration camps full of Poles and Jews.

And also collaborated with the Nazis and murdered countless Jews both during and after the war; they even managed to murder half of the survivors of the Belzec death camp, and the co-leader of the Sobibor death camp revolt.
goofy_the_dog
26 May 2014 #47
Links? Or is it just your claims and rants?
Harry
26 May 2014 #48
As I keep telling people like you: go and read up about Operation Krkonose.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
26 May 2014 #49
NSZ liberated concentration camps full of Poles and Jews

Obviously you have never heard of the "Brigada Świętokrzyżka" who happily cooperated with the Gestapo and the SS when convenient = murdering Jews.

For all the jews that he helped to kick out,

You mean the pogrom in Kielce?

jon357:
He's too complicated to dismiss just as the times he lives in are too complicated for the very young to generalise about.

One certainly hopes that they still have time to grow up.

From what I know he is not living in Poland - for one thing somebody so "patriotic" should not have left for the UK, but work and pay taxes here and support the local economy, and not a corner shop in Fulham or Croydon?
Harry
26 May 2014 #50
Interesting to see former PM Leszek Miller speaking out in support of both a period of national mourning and military funeral for the General, and attacking those who hounded the General to his death.

Former prime minister Leszek Miller, who was one of the communist party members who took part in the 1989 Round Table Talks, was forthright in his praise for Jaruzelski. "A great Pole has left us who was victimised to the end by political hyenas and common twerps," he wrote on his Twitter profile.

Full article here: thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/171922,National-mourning-for-General-Jaruzelski-unnecessary
goofy_the_dog
26 May 2014 #51
Right.. I was contemplating on making this thread ages ago... yet I knew the atmospehere of this forum a bit towel.. but now I think it is a right time to make a thread abou what Poles that have lived in those tinmes and actually fought with ZOMO/ORMO/Mo, and those younger born after the Okragly Stol (Roundtable Agreement) and the more bizzare Magdalenka agreement.

Who actually was Wojciech Jaruzelski?
A descendent of a small noble family of Slepowron, born in Kurow.
As the war started he and his familly moved to the USSR part of Poland.
As captain of one of units of the Peoples Army invading.. or Liberating Poland after the war, he got himself a medal for an effective cleansing of the anti communist Ukrainian areas.. he also participated quite gladly in forcing out Ukrainians and Lemkos out of the area.

In 1946-1954 he is a secret agent of the Informaca Wojskowa - a very brutal communist secret service, the predecessors of the UB and SB.. it has been written in the IPN acts.. of course once alive he feverelishly rejected these truths.

In 1948 by the orders of Boleslav Bierut (Stalin like figure that have for an example signed a death warrant ion danuta Siedzikowna a girl of the mere age of 17) has been advanced further in ranks for exceptional service to the rank of major of the Polish peoples Army.

He was so devoted to the Red Army tha he was the only general out of the staff to eb in favour iof an old communist, a true Soviet Konstantin Rokossowsky to stay in the Polish Army.People often claim that Jaruzelski dfid not repress AK, WiN or NSZ...

From a source:
Wojciech Jaruzelski , after graduating from Officer School in Ryazan was directed to the front of World War II as commander of the reconnaissance platoon 5th Infantry Regiment . At the time of the National Armed Forces and WIN ( organizations fighting for a free Poland from German occupation and Soviet ) reported to his superiors in the following way:

" The purpose of the terrorist militia was to be uncompromising struggle against the current democratic regime and terrorize and murder of activists of the democratic parties and the UB and MO, robbing money in state institutions and cooperative , looting weapons and conducting all possible means of struggle and propaganda against the democratic Polish Statehood with its representatives "

In 1948, Jaruzelski became lecturer at the School of Infantry . In 1949 he became head of the faculty in the Department of Schools and Courses Staff of the Land Forces . During this time, your supervisor , General Popławski reported as follows:

"Despite the vigilance that showed the Admissions Committee at the recruitment of candidates for the school , a few students show a hostile attitude to the current reality in Poland and the Soviet Union . Been reported hate speech on the part of some students coming mostly from white-collar and petty-bourgeois "

Truly Wojciech was an exceptionally loyal Bolshevik.
To be continued
Lenka 3 | 2,558
26 May 2014 #52
Who gave you the right to speak in the name of all Poles? I know quite a few that don't share your opinion. If you want to write this BS write it as you and only you.
pam
26 May 2014 #53
From a source:

Could you please give a link to that source Goofy?
goofy_the_dog
26 May 2014 #54
what Poles that have lived in those tinmes and actually fought with ZOMO/ORMO/Mo, and those younger born after the Okragly Stol (Roundtable Agreement) and the more bizzare Magdalenka agreement think about this Persona.

Who gave you the right to speak in the name of all Poles? I know quite a few that don't share your opinion. If you want to write this BS write it as you and only you.

... This thread is based on the beliefs of people that have fought ORMO/ZOMO/MO,SB and UB or older.. or younger people like me born after the Round table agreement and the madalenka deal.

SOURCES FOR NOW (as this thread will be updated with new entries):

DELETED

english language is required on this thread
romanbear
26 May 2014 #55
Lenka, most of the Poles will tell you the same about jaruzel, only people agree with him are traitors , same as he was, now he burning in hell.
goofy_the_dog
26 May 2014 #56
Since this thread is already thriving with interest i shall continue for a bit...

After his succesful campaign against the Polish freedomfighters.. of course as we now (it has been estab,lsihed by the IPN) he was working for the infamous WSI.. as such he was most probably one of teh onterrogation officers.. same like Mr Baumann ( one wonders if tehy knew eachother) thus to those in the know they will know that the job that Jaruzelski most probably had to carry out was just liek the one of a Gestapo officer..since both reginmes didnt really differ that much.

That is a very nice picture of his visit to the North Korea:
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSp9I9hHpqikeGvQs1nRWB8qgU7QQyjAlLOXyx0lfBdgJ5UHUpt
the subtitle was added later 9I predict) it says:
democrats keep together....
Lenka 3 | 2,558
26 May 2014 #57
Lenka, most of the Poles will tell you the same about jaruzel, only people agree with him are traitors , same as he was, now he burning in hell.

I know what ppl say and think I'm a Pole for Pete's sake and I talk to Poles all the time. And quite frankly I'm not too glad that Goofy is theoretically talking in my name.

Anyone has the right to have their opinion however one Polish immigrant speaking for the whole nation is not ok with me.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
26 May 2014 #58
Interesting to see former PM Leszek Miller speaking out in support of both a period of national mourning and military funeral for the General, and attacking those who hounded the General to his death.

FFS I am beginning to dislike you Harry for your communist apologist bent. So now you are quoting Miller as a voice of reason. I wouldn't ***** on Miller if he was on fire. Of course the old commies of Gdynia might have elected "the twerp" but he is another who in a decent world would get a good kicking.

Next?
goofy_the_dog
26 May 2014 #59
Old time commie PZPR official .. Jaruzelski should be buried either in Kremlin or on the Red Armiescemetary on Zwirki i Wigory NOT On POWAZKI
if they will actually put his body to rest there then i bet a fiver that his grave will detroyed next week :-)
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
26 May 2014 #60
I very much doubt it Goofy. The pseudo-intellectuals have already re-modelled him.

Revisionist history will have it's revenge, so be calm.


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