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Good-change government raising minimum wage in Poland, cutting SB pensions



rozumiemnic 9 | 3,107    
26 Jun 2016  #61

In other words annulment is the way that the RC church gives people divorces.

yes but it costs a lot more...:D


terri 1 | 1,162    
26 Jun 2016  #62

Some people want to marry for a second time in church. They have to get the first church marriage annulled. Then you have to get divorced in the usual way.

If you have never been married in church, then a civil divorce will do.
mafketis 16 | 4,251    
26 Jun 2016  #63

They have to get the first church marriage annulled

In other words they have to get a divorce from the church. There's no reason to have separate words when talking about the same thing

civil marriage / church marriage

civil divorce / church divorce
Religio    
27 Jun 2016  #64

Mafketis - Annulment of marriage

The Polish read anulowanie małżeństwa so perhasp a civil annulment also exists. I'm not a lawyer.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,407    
27 Jun 2016  #65

There is no such thing as church divorce in RCC. Annulement of marriage is called "unieważnienie małżeństwa" in Polish. This means that the RCC states that a particular marriage has never been valid, so it has not existed really. I think civil annulement of marriage exists, but must be applied for in a given, rather short time ("non consumatum" is probably the main reason for it) immediately after the marriage took place. Civil marriage is just a contract between the two sides, whereas religious marriage seems to be more than that.
mafketis 16 | 4,251    
27 Jun 2016  #66

This means that the RCC states that a particular marriage has never been valid, so it has not existed really

magic thinking, not surprising, but still magic thinking

the practical result is the same, the divorcees/anullees can get married again, annulment is just a way for the RC church to pretend it doesn't believe in divorce
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,458    
27 Jun 2016  #67

"unieważnienie małżeństwa"

The grounds can include non consummatum, concealed mental condition, other false pretences, bigamy and not wanting to have children not wanting to have children.
jon357 63 | 11,640    
27 Jun 2016  #68

magic thinking, not surprising, but still magic thinking

Better just to divorce than go through the hoops of explaining yourself to clergy who then have a debate among themselves about it.

A friend (a priest taken out of parish work due to serious mental illness) worked for the Diocesan Marriage Tribunal as something called a 'Defender of the Bond'. He, who had never had a relationship and was so nutty they wouldn't let him near a pulpit or a parishioner was paid to argue in every case that an annulment should not happen.

Easier to sort it out at a lawyer.
mafketis 16 | 4,251    
27 Jun 2016  #69

The grounds can include non consummatum, concealed mental condition, other false pretences, bigamy and not wanting to have children

what about domestic abuse?
Religio    
27 Jun 2016  #70

mafketis - what about domestic abuse?

If that is something that emerged after the marriage had been sacramentalised and consummated, it would not normally be grounds for annulment. Unlike civil divorce, grounds for annulment usually have to do with entering into marriage under false pretences, because one side had concealed some vital fact, impediment or information disqualifying him/her from a sacramental union. Concealing that one is sterile, impotent, mentally unbalanced, already married or an atheist would qualify.

The fact of the matter is that a good (well-paid) lawyer can stretch and twist things into line what the verdict he/she anticipates.
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,458    
27 Jun 2016  #71

a good (well-paid) lawyer can stretch and twist

That may be true of civilian lawyers, but participants in eccelsiastical annulment proceedings must adhere to the principles of the Catholic faith and that incldues the insolubility of sacramental marriage. Occasional abuses may creep in but that does not justify equating annulment with divorce or calling it a "church divorce".
mafketis 16 | 4,251    
27 Jun 2016  #72

the principles of the Catholic faith and that incldues the insolubility of sacramental marriage

First, it's adorbs! He's talking to himself pretending to be someone he isn't!! Cutes!!!

Secondly, either sacremental marriage is insoluble or not. Annulment seems like wanting to have your cake (insoluble bonds created by the church) and eat it too (looksies! it never happened!!!)

Sloppy thinking, plain and simple.
jon357 63 | 11,640    
27 Jun 2016  #73

Replying to yourself, Po?

And of course domestic abuse is grounds to end a marriage. Religions are not always right.
smurf 39 | 2,011    
27 Jun 2016  #74

That may be true of civilian lawyers

You're actually replying to yourself????

Hahaha, Je$us H Christ, we've seen it all now folks.
You need help brother.
Atch 8 | 1,544    
27 Jun 2016  #75

Annulment

Remember that once upon a time only very rich people even contemplated officially separating from a spouse. I would suggest that annulment was introduced by the church in order to facilitate royalty and nobility in remarrying, in the case of there not being any heir produced. As Catholics are not permitted to divorce, this would be the only way to ensure the succession in a direct line, very important to crowned heads of Europe in those days!
GLostEmail    
27 Jun 2016  #76

No , divorce was earlier (never cponsidered "goood")... in NewTestament. There they ask Christ why was divorce allowed and other things His response:
He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

It is a myth that an annulment is "Divorce, Catholic style." Civil divorce and a church annulment are two vastly different things. A divorce is

concerned with the legal realities of marriage only; an annulment is concerned with the religious and
spiritual element-the sacrament of marriage. A divorce focuses on the end of a marriage; an annulment
looks at the beginning, the very moment the couple said "I do." A divorce looks at marriage in civil law;
an annulment looks at marriage from the perspective of the Gospel and of Church doctrine.
Atch 8 | 1,544    
27 Jun 2016  #77

divorce was earlier

There they ask Christ why was divorce allowed and other things

Yes but it was never available in the Catholic church.
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,458    
27 Jun 2016  #78

it never happened!!!

No, it's like a fraudulently concluded contract. If the stated conditions were untrue, then such a contract can be appealed against and overturned.
jon357 63 | 11,640    
27 Jun 2016  #79

No, it's like a fraudulently concluded contract

And domestic abuse is clear grounds for divorce. Not that any explanation should be needed if a couple wish to part. Nobody's business except theirs.
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,458    
27 Jun 2016  #80

Nobody's business

There are people to whom nothing is sacred, not even th holy estate of matrimony.
Treating marriage and the fmaily lightly has led to tears, dispair and tragedy. Children are even better off if a mismatched couple grin and bear it for the family's sake rather than displaying their soiled linens in a court of law, facing custody battles, visting rights, parental abductions and all the other traumatising experiences that family break-up may entail.
mafketis 16 | 4,251    
28 Jun 2016  #81

an annulment looks at marriage from the perspective of the Gospel and of Church doctrine

So why isn't physical abuse a large enough violation of Church doctrine to dissolve a marriage?

Children are even better off if a mismatched couple grin and bear it for the family's sake

To some extent this is true. There are probably too many frivolous divorces. But still, if one spouse is regularly abusing (physcially or verbally) the other then it is probably better for the non-abusive spouse to take the kids and leave.
jon357 63 | 11,640    
28 Jun 2016  #82

Children are even better off if a mismatched couple grin and bear it

Any evidence for that?
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,458    
28 Jun 2016  #83

Years of observation. Any evidence to the contrary? Besides, altruism (doing it for the kids) is heroic and far better than me, myself and I egoism. Unless you espouse the thinking behind the ING bank commercial on TV: It's MY idea, MY money, MY decision...
jon357 63 | 11,640    
28 Jun 2016  #84

Years of observation

Not very scientific.

It's MY idea, MY money, MY decision...

Absolutely.
smurf 39 | 2,011    
28 Jun 2016  #85

Years of observation.

That's no evidence, unless you did actually observe it by recording it and then wrote a peer reviewed paper on your observations.

Did you?

It's MY idea, MY money, MY decision...

As Jon says above 'absolutely'

But it's like the saying goes, you have have your beliefs, but beliefs don't change facts mate
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,458    
28 Jun 2016  #86

MY idea, MY money, MY decision

Selfishness -- the supreme virtue? Nice to know who one is dealing with.
jon357 63 | 11,640    
28 Jun 2016  #87

Selfishness

There you go again, falsely trying to make a contrast.

You conveniently forgot about the individual taking responsibility for their actions and finding their own understanding of ethics, without need for advice from a religious organisation unless they want it and without their freedoms being constricted by the religious beliefs of others...

beliefs don't change facts

Exactly
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,458    
28 Jun 2016  #88

freedoms being constricted

What about people's freedom of speech and expression being constricted by the PC dictatorship which insists there is only one, true, version of reality: the leftist one?
smurf 39 | 2,011    
28 Jun 2016  #89

Change a few words and you have exactly what your beloved cult political party are doing to Polish media.
But you can't see that becasue you're blind to the cult
jon357 63 | 11,640    
28 Jun 2016  #90

What about people's freedom of speech and expression being constricted by the PC dictatorship which insists there is only one, true, version of reality: the leftist one?

That post makes no sense at all, since your freedom of expression is very evidently not being 'constricted'.

beloved cult political party are doing to Polish media.

Those individuals however are trying.



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