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Footie hooligan punch-up thwarted in Poland


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Jun 2013  #1
Police prevented a clash between rival football fan clubs from £ódź who were planning to face off in a park. Such a pre-arranged clash is known in Polish as an 'ustawka'. Do such events take place in other countries? If so, do they have any special name?

As Adam Kolasa said the press office of the Lodz police , skierniewiccy police received information that on the territory of the county early in the morning can lead to confrontation kiboli . The police showed up in a few selected places before kibicowskimi militia . It was found that 15 cars appeared almost simultaneously in the depths of Landscape Park , the clearing away of two kilometers from the provincial road No. 705 .
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
15 Jun 2013  #2
I'm glad to see that no one got hurt that day but even this is still a reaction to a symptom of a much deeper social problem.

If the national and municipal governments invested money that people currently pay in taxes on things like, oh I don't know...culture, parks, recreation, infrastructure and education then these events would attract fewer participants.
szkotja2007 27 | 1,500
16 Jun 2013  #3
Do such events take place in other countreis?

Back in the Eighties maybe. Its seen as a bit "retro" nowadays.
wjtk - | 29
16 Jun 2013  #4
That's stupid. If grown men want to fight eachother somewhere in the woods let them do it. Why would anyone stick his nose into it? That's their life, their health, their business. I prefer them to fight eachother under their rules than involve into it some innocent people on the streets.

And no, i never participated in such "event", but nannystate simply disgust me. there should be only one rule - you can fight BUT if someone got killed or seriously injured all of you will suffer legal consequences. It up to them if they want to take a risk.
jon357 63 | 14,134
16 Jun 2013  #5
Actually in a public park, not "the woods".
wjtk - | 29
16 Jun 2013  #6
News says it was forest.
jon357 63 | 14,134
16 Jun 2013  #7
Where people have a right to walk without thugs battling. Regarding your views about their freedom to behave like that, I wonder if they all have private health insurance to cover the cost of treating their self-inflicted injuries or whether they expect the rest of us to subsidise it.
wjtk - | 29
16 Jun 2013  #8
Where people have a right to walk without thugs battling

Some would find it very interesting ;).

Regarding your views about their freedom to behave like that, I wonder if they all have private health insurance to cover the cost of treating their self-inflicted injuries or whether they expect the rest of us to subsidise it.

1. I hardly ever hear in the news about tragedies happened during such fights,
2. Most of them are adults and despite common view most of them have job so they are forced by state to pay for health insurance, i don't know why would they have to buy additional private insurance.

3. If not - well, that is patology of public health care system. I would never agree to get rid off my personal freedoms because of it.
jon357 63 | 14,134
16 Jun 2013  #9
Doubtless it is interesting to some. Nevertheless, healthcare here is a shared matter and patching up lowlife who bash each other for fun isn't something that others need to subsidise.

Also there are very good reasons that wrestling and boxing are regulated and that assault is illegal.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,669
16 Jun 2013  #10
1. I hardly ever hear in the news about tragedies happened during such fights,

Do you really think that your average hooligan is going to admit having received a beating?

2. Most of them are adults and despite common view most of them have job so they are forced by state to pay for health insurance, i don't know why would they have to buy additional private insurance.

Their contributions to health insurance will be minimal compared to the costs of treating them.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
16 Jun 2013  #11
yeah, like if they had a league then it could actually produce revenue.
Fcuk it, some c-unt should start a hooligans league in Poland, if any revenue was produced then there'd be some awesome franchise options available in the future. At least in that way their actions would benefit them as well as others -win, win scenario imo.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,669
16 Jun 2013  #12
yeah, like if they had a league then it could actually produce revenue.

I'm surprised no-one has started some sort of hooligan MMA league - like those Toughman contests in the USA!
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
16 Jun 2013  #13
I've been telling some of the guys in my area for years to get this going but have come to accept that the strategic thinking of most of the people here is 2 years maximum...if no one can guarantee someone they'll be the next Jan Kulczyk in that time then it's not going to happen:/

But I've worked out a lot of things that would have to happen for it to be stable and profitable.the point though isn't who does it but that it gets done and it actually produces some benefit to offset the costs these brawls have on society in general.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 May 2015  #14
Merged: Stadium punch-ups in Poland? Ferguson lives!

Clashes between stadium hooligans and riot police are nothing new but since Ferguson they seem to have taken on a new dimension. So far the rampaging thugs smashed cars and shop windows but now they have targeted police stations.

One way to deal with the problem would be for someone (councils, police, sport clubs, schools, parishes) to organise contact-sport activities where the young testosterone thugs could let off steam in a controlled environment. Let them beat the crap out of each other in any of the martial arts. That would be a long-range goal.

The ad hoc reaction would be to have the wreckers clean up and repair the damage they did with their own grubby hands. If they are juveniles their parents should be required to pay. If they lack the money, the bailiff could always take the old man's TV set. Dad would fix his rioting brat just fine.
jon357 63 | 14,134
4 May 2015  #15
Sir Alex Ferguson? As far as I know he's got no connection with Polish football. In any case, football stadium punch-ups in Poland are nothing new and the various rivalries between football supporters is actually quite sophisticated, if that's the right word.

Personally I prefer Polonia to Legia - on the whole their fans tend to be better behaved and are generally from a different demographic.
cms 9 | 1,272
4 May 2015  #16
Polonius, lots of these guys would not have a Dad anywhere close to hand - absent fathers are one of the root causes of this idiocy. I don't think that news from Ferguson has much impact on Knurow - there has always been a serious hooligan problem in Poland since the end of Commie times. I remember reading about live rounds being fired at Gdynia once over the heads of the rioters and I was at an amazing riot between Legia and Polonia in 97 when Legia fans were throwing javelins and shot puts at the police after breaking into a sports pavilion.
jon357 63 | 14,134
4 May 2015  #17
Yes, though rubber bullets are certainly overkill. Tear gas would have been a more sensible solution.
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 May 2015  #18
"One way to deal with the problem would be for someone (councils, police, sport clubs, schools, parishes) to organise contact-sport activities where the young testosterone thugs could let off steam in a controlled environment."

What a ridiculous thing to say regarding this case.
The cops were incredibly heavy-handed on how they dealt with the football fans. I would bet that this being a low league match the cops weren't particularly experienced with dealing with real hooligans of the area, i.e Ruch Chorzow, Gornik Zabrze.

Some idiot cop shot a guy and killed him.
In my eyes he should be charged with manslaughter.

The use of plastic bullets is archaic. Completely unescessary in this day and age. Polish cops have plenty of pepper spray and the use of water cannons, as well as truncheons. And a young man is dead because of the wrong actions of the Police.

The ad hoc reaction would be to have the wreckers clean up and repair the damage they did with their own grubby hands. If they are juveniles their parents should be required to pay. If they lack the money, the bailiff could always take the old man's TV set. Dad would fix his rioting brat just fine.

You've written some really dumb sh!t in your time, but that's might just be the winner.

The actions of the Police caused these riots. I'm certainly no fan of football hooligans but if a cop killed one of my friends I'd be first in line to throw rocks at the ba$tard$
gumishu 11 | 5,015
4 May 2015  #19
You've written some really dumb sh!t in your time, but that's might just be the winner.

smurf - the policeman did not shoot to kill - if you are acting like a bandit prepare for possible consequences - in this incident the consequence was death - this is sad but it happens when you act like a bandit
jon357 63 | 14,134
4 May 2015  #20
It sounds like spectacularly incompetent crowd control.
Polsyr 6 | 769
4 May 2015  #21
Personally I prefer Polonia to Legia

Try saying that in my neighborhood :)
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 May 2015  #22
No, the actions of kibol scum who barged onto the pitch caused the trouble. In Germany they've got these nets that are shot out and can enwrap a large slice of pitch. With them the thugs can be scooped up and dragged to the nearest lock-up.

Police did not start shooting at normal, peaceful footie fans but trouble-makers. In the thick of a clash people do get hurt.
What would be wrong with forcing the young thug slime to do some honest clean-up. They made the mess and caused the damage, let them work it off! Molly-coddling them and blaming police only leads to the kind of nonsense we have seen in Ferguson and Baltimore. The parents of the juveniles (under 18) should be charged for the damaged police cars and their wages garnished.
JollyRomek 7 | 481
4 May 2015  #23
In Germany they've got these nets that are shot out and can enwrap a large slice of pitch. With them the thugs can be scooped up and dragged to the nearest lock-up.

You seem to know more than I do. Can you please advise in which stadium in Germany they have nets that shoot out when the pitch is invaded?

Anyway, I do agree that what happened on the weekend has to be looked at from both sides. On one hand, I agree that the police overreacted. The rubber bullets should be the last resort. On this occasion, the police did not even try anything else. According to the videos there were enough officers to keep the two sets of supporters apart. Looked more like a case of a trigger happy cop who thought he would get a away with it, seeing that there would be no media attention to his aggressive "crowd control". I guess it didn't quite work out as he would have imagined.

On the other hand, I can see and understand the argument "they should not have been on the pitch in the first place" .

Either way, if anyone thought that Polish football has returned to normality, at least in some Stadia, will find that the idea of violence free football games in Poland is now completely out of the window. Police will now have an even harder time to control the crowds at games.
jon357 63 | 14,134
4 May 2015  #24
The aprents of the juveniles (under 18) should be charged for the damaged police cars and their wages garnished

Much the same when the nationalists (and there's a considerable overlap between them and football hooligans) set fire to vehicles and rip up paving stones on 11 November. In crowds though, and during the chaos of a football riot it's hard to know who exactly did what and who was just caught up in it unless there's detailed film footage. Punishing the guilty is one thing, avoiding punishing those near them is much more subtle.

In this case though it was a gross overreaction by the police who panicked and behaved like trigger-happy amateurs. Not the first time this has happened recently in Poland. At least they didn't mistake real bullets for rubber ones when loading weapons as they did in Lodz.

Tear gas would have been much more effective.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 May 2015  #25
Fortunately, the race card isn't being played in Poland. In the US things are always twisted to make police appear guilty of racial brutality. Football hooligans, nationalists, leftists, anarchists, pederasts or anyone else who destroys property and attacks law-enforcement officers should be punished with the full severity of the law. But especially made to make amends. Putting someone behind bars is not the same as having them themselves roll up their sleeves, clear away the rubble and clean up the mess they made. That is directly related to the destruction they caused and should make them think twice before engaging in such behaviour again.

Since, as you contend, there is an overlap between nationalists and footie scum, they could be cut down to size if told they're acting like a bunch of barbaric N-words in America. Nothing could insult them more! Dealing with mindless violence requires a comprehensive approach -- not only physical and financial penalties but also psychological means.
jon357 63 | 14,134
5 May 2015  #26
Education and community penalties might have a better effect - for both groups. The people protesting in Anerica have a very valid point - these are just hooligans.
JollyRomek 7 | 481
5 May 2015  #27
Polonius3, do you want to discuss current events in the U.S.? If so, please use the off topic thread or find another forum.

If you want to discuss what happened in Knurow, please do not mix the topics in one answer. Hooliganism in Poland (or anywhere in Europe) can not just simply be described as "mindless violence". There is a lot more to it. A look at the group's infrastructures makes it quite clear that we don't just talk about uneducated thugs.

However, first of all, I would like it if you could answer my questions regarding the nets in German football stadia, that shoot out across the pitch when someone invades it. Can you please tell me at which German stadium you think you have seen such a net?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 May 2015  #28
[quote=jon357]Some may believe that the people protesting in America by torching cars and buildings and looting shops have a very valid point.
JollyRomek 7 | 481
5 May 2015  #29
... which means Polionius should discuss the nets in German football stadia in the off-topic, whereas he himself tries to discuss it in the on-topic. Should only the US be removed to the off-topic and Germany shouldn't?

You don't get the point. The references to the current events in the U.S. are in no way related to football hooliganism.
The references to the nets which apparently are shot across the pitch to catch pitch invading hooligans in German stadia, are related to the topic.
johnny reb 17 | 3,873
5 May 2015  #30
quote by jonEducation and community penalties might have a better effect - for both groups. The people protesting in Anerica have a very valid point - these are just hooligans.

In America it was a civil rights riot for a purpose and in Poland the footie riots are just drunk and disorderly hooligan punks with no purpose.


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