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Poland's fight against paedophilia


Harry
9 Jun 2015  #91
Merged: Polish Episcopate pledges it is tackling paedophilia

This is good to see. But will the RCC here in Poland own up to its past mistakes, such as, to give just one example, deciding that a convicted (and self-confessed) paedophile rapist who had been deported from the USA for his crimes would be the ideal man to teach religious education to students the same age as his victim. We shall see (and hope). Anyway, at least this is progress.

Primate of Poland Archbishop Wojciech Polak took part in a conference on Tuesday concerning reforms on how the Church is dealing with child abuse within its ranks.

Recently enforced regulations on how the Church combats child abuse were presented at the conference, in two separate documents. Father Adam ┼╗ak, coordinator of the Conference of the Polish Episcopate's Department for the Protection of Children, said that the documentation "gives everyone - the public, believers, the clergy, but most of all victims - certainty regarding the law, the activities of the Church, and the principles upon which it is based."

Full article here. 100+ words cropped
thenews/1/9/Artykul/209637,Polish-Episcopate-pledges-it-is-tackling-paedophilia
gregy741 4 | 1,204
9 Jun 2015  #92
Poland is to become the first EU country to impose chemical castration on convicted paedophiles.

not sure if that's a good idea.i especially hate when media or politician use some single pathological situation in order to help them push some controversial legislation.

thats could be potentially permanent harmful for health , chemicals as a punishment for crime..its like coming back to medieval times,,cutting hands,ect.
but whats worst is that its further demonize this disorder and could potentially prevent many would be pedophiles from seeing doctors,out of fear of being judged or victimized.thus it could even contribute to rise of this crime

the way i see it,its a medical problem and condition that needs to be treated.and need to be seen that way,
instead,public see this as some ultimate evil.as results this disorder is being demonized massively..calling for executions,castrations ect. ant that prevent many people with this problem to seek medical help or therapy.instead they go into hiding,trying to fight it away.some manage it some dont.

but need more knowledge to know best solution..i don't even know if that disorder is treatable or curable.
Harry
9 Jun 2015  #93
Primate of Poland Archbishop Wojciech Polak took part in a conference on Tuesday concerning reforms on how the Church is dealing with child abuse within its ranks.

Does anybody happen to know if/when the RCC has discussed castration paedophile priests?
Brunensis
10 Jun 2015  #94
These people are slaves of urges largely beyond their control.

So the death penalty is appropriate .
jon357 63 | 14,124
10 Jun 2015  #95
One issue with that is the sheer number of accusations that are false - every word fiction - that are almost impossible to defend against.

Admittedly someone calling for the death penalty (impossible anywhere within the Union anyway) isn't likely to care that much if an innocent person dies....
Harry
10 Jun 2015  #96
So the death penalty is appropriate .

That is a bit extreme, don't you think? I know that in the above cases we are talking about paedophile priests, who are the worst kind of paedophile, as priest are supposed to be the men which Catholics can trust above and beyond all other men (or women), and thus the magnitude of the crime is greatly increased, but isn't killing them a bit too much?

Apart from anything else, in a century or so, when absolutely everybody recognises homosexuality for what it is (i.e. completely normal and natural and nothing to be hidden or ashamed of), those who wish to defend the paedophile priests who were executed for raping boys will start trying to claim that the priests were only homosexual and the age of their partners was lied about in order to persecute homosexual priests. One might even see the start of campaigns to have those paedophile priests being recognised by the RCC as martyrs who died to promote homosexuality.

Also, when RCC priests are finally allowed to marry, there will be the same problem with paedophile priests who were executed for raping girls aged 14. The RCC sees nothing wrong with marrying (and having sex with) girls aged 14, so there would most probably be campaigns to have those paedophile priests being recognised by the RCC as martyrs who died in order to enable priests to marry.
gjene 14 | 200
10 Jun 2015  #97
Better than chemical castration or prison would be to turn the pedophiles into eunuchs. In other words completely remove their genitalia. Then the operation should be made public in order to humiliate the person. Then any other person that gets caught and convicted of the same crime will have the same operation done and publicly humiliated as well. Maybe this might smarten others up and prevent any further incidents.
jon357 63 | 14,124
10 Jun 2015  #98
If the death penalty isn't a deterrent, that certainly won't be. And you don't mention that percentage of people wrongly convicted who are later freed on appeal. You don't mention female offenders either.
Brunensis
11 Jun 2015  #99
And you don't mention that percentage of people wrongly convicted who are later freed on appeal.

Very few over the years the death penalty has been legal here.
And you don't mention those who're guilty but are freed by a sympathetic judge ... there's a case like that being sorted out now .

And I notice no mention of the brutality of the deaths inflicted by these criminals.
jon357 63 | 14,124
11 Jun 2015  #100
Very few over the years the death penalty has been legal here.

You don't have the death penalty for sexual abuse wherever you live, do you? And absolutely tons of cases happen like that every year in Europe, especially England (and some in Poland too, though they have a higher burden of proof so fewer cases reach court). Juries tend to convict, then some new information comes up to clear person who is victim of the false allegation (or the false alligator admits they lied about an innocent person). It's happening now about a famous person called Rolf Harris - jailed for 6 years and it now looks like he was never in the same town as the under-age complainant. There was also an adult complainant against him who lied through her teeth for money and attention and has as much as admitted this online. He is the victim not them - and you'd have had his blood on your hands had he been executed. Fortunately we don't kill people so there will be a judicial review instead.

And you don't mention those who're guilty but are freed by a sympathetic judge

Not in the UK - there are minimum sentences. same in Poland.

And I notice no mention of the brutality of the deaths inflicted by these criminals.

We are talking about sexual abuse. If there's a murder as well, then it would be treated as a murder.
NocyMrok
11 Jun 2015  #101
So now we pre-judge people.

To be honest Your way of thinking is flawed. If the punishment is clearly known "before hand" it's up to future-convict to pre-judge the outcome of his/her actions. "If i'll abuse this child and get caught i'll get castrated". If one commits then he/she gets what he/she was aware of BEFORE they broke the law!

There should be restrictions of course. It can happen that for example 17 y.o. falls in love with 15 y.o. but this is what we have judges for, to distinguish those "unfortunate" from pathological child molesters.
Harry
11 Jun 2015  #102
And you don't mention that percentage of people wrongly convicted who are later freed on appeal.

Do you know of even a single case in which a Polish RCC priest (or nun for that matter) has been convicted of child abuse and later had the verdict overturned? I can't say I've heard of any, although I have heard of cases where priests have done their time, been let out and then gone straight back to their old job. The Roman K. case would be one example.
jon357 63 | 14,124
11 Jun 2015  #103
Do you know of even a single case in which a Polish RCC priest (or nun for that matter) has been convicted of child abuse and later had the verdict overturned?

No. Although this is increasingly common in the UK (plus judges stopping trials on the first day) it doesn't happen so much in Poland because of a. the statute of limitations, b. the higher burden of proof, so not just one person's word against another and c. the low levels of compensation for accusers.

I have heard of cases where priests have done their time, been let out and then gone straight back to their old job

This is not Poland-specific and the real issue in the RCC is how proven crimes were covered up, but yes, the fact that this happens is bizarre. The complete opposite of UK ('scuse me citing the UK all the time but I know more than I'd like to about it unfortunately and am involved in campaigns so can easily draw comparisons) where even one allegation, even if proven false, can prevent an innocent person of ever working with minors and can even cause access problems to their own kids.

This is one area where the rather annoying Polish legal system works in the favour of the truth, however some scarily lax child protection issues too.
Harry
11 Jun 2015  #104
it doesn't happen so much in Poland because of a. the statute of limitations, b. the higher burden of proof, so not just one person's word against another and c. the low levels of compensation for accusers.

Would you say it is even less likely to happen here when the alleged abuser is a RCC priest?
jon357 63 | 14,124
11 Jun 2015  #105
That wouldn't surprise me. I know of one awful case (reported at the time in some, but only some of the Polish media) of a case of a lady in a village who walked in on her 10 year old son and the parish priest. He'd even rigged up a camera and was filming what he was doing. She (after presumably screaming the place down) contacted the police, he vanished from the parish and when she tried to chase up at the police station to find where he'd been taken by the church etc was told all the paperwork had been taken to Warsaw at the instruction of a higher agency than the police. She was told there were to be no public scandals connected to the church prior to JPII's planned visit. Worth mentioning that was during the short-lived PiS regime.
Dougpol1 30 | 3,046
12 Jun 2015  #106
all the paperwork had been taken to Warsaw at the instruction of a higher agency than the police.

Who would Michael Caine do first - the priest or the head of the kommissariat? I reckon the second. Utterly repulsive story Jon, and Poland B would condone such filth.
johnny reb 17 | 3,537
12 Jun 2015  #107
And absolutely tons of cases happen like that every year in Europe, especially England

And nothing being said about what Poland may have learned from the Queens alledged involvement herself.
May I quote from about 18 months ago:
"At this time almost all of the real alternative news media outlets are buzzing, absolutely buzzing with the claims from UK child abuse survivors, that they were sexually abused, and by that I mean drugged, trafficked, raped, and tortured...., by senior politicians in Parliament and even by members of the royal household."

Does anyone know what the out come was of this or is the investigation on going ?
Hopefully Poland can learn from this so they don't single out just the "RCC" and just the priests.
There has been a lot aimed here at solely the "RCC" and the priests in this thread to make one wonder if maybe there were personal accounts of this happing at say a boarding school in England years ago to show so much bitterness toward them.

Paedophiliars come from all classes of people, all religions, all ages, women, men, and all races.

(or the false alligator admits they lied about an innocent person).

It happens way to often that an irrate divorcing woman coaches the child to turn on the father for revenge.
The ex wife coaches the child to lie.
A man is TOTALLY helpless to defend himself because all the child has to say is that Daddy touched me
in the wrong spot. Bam ! Straight to jail Daddy goes just on that one lie. No if's and's or but's.
Even if the prosecutor knows better he/she still has to convict on the testimony of a four year old.
I am very glad to hear that Poland has a higher burdon of proof compared to other countries.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jun 2015  #108
awful case

The exaggerated, media-propelled notoriety that has created a paedophile = RC clergy association to a large extent has resulted from a red herring invented by groups (like the LGBT) who wanted to take the heat off themselves. And what better way to take revenge on the Church which condemns their sick deviations than by whipping up public ire against it.

It turns out that RC clergy or other clergy for that matter do not have a higher rate of paedophilia convictions than others groups. It also turns out that the 2% homosexuals account for over one-third of all paedophilic assaults on young boys. The anti-RC smoke screen was an excellent way of concealing such unflattering facts from view.
Shaman
12 Jun 2015  #109
The thing is not the amount of paedophilia cases in church but how the church acted.
No-one sane would expect such a big organisation to be free of any deviants, even though they are supposed to be the moral compass. What matters in the cases of paedophilia in the church is that the church covered for them, silenced the matters and usually just moved the priests to another parish where they worked with kids again. Once the church owns up for all that disgusting practices which must have led to more abuse (since the abusing priest weren't removed from the work) we can talk about statistics. For now church is the most abominable organisation in Poland when it comes to paedophilia.

I don't understand how even the most devoted Catholics can try to excuse what the church did.
Harry
12 Jun 2015  #110
It turns out that RC clergy or other clergy for that matter do not have a higher rate of paedophilia convictions than others groups.

Could you be so kind as to give us your source for that? I'd like to check it.

It also turns out that the 2% homosexuals account for over one-third of all paedophilic assaults on young boys.

Again, what is your source for that? I get the feeling it might also be the same sort of source as the source of the factoid you shared with us about micro-chipping babies.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jun 2015  #111
source for that

I'm sure you're computer-savvy enough to have heard of Google. He who seeks, finds!
jon357 63 | 14,124
12 Jun 2015  #112
the Queens alledged involvement herself.

WTF?

It happens way to often that an irrate divorcing woman coaches the child to turn on the father for revenge.
The ex wife coaches the child to lie.

This is very close to the truth, unfortunately.

It turns out that RC clergy or other clergy for that matter do not have a higher rate of paedophilia convictions than others groups

That issue isn't about how many of them do it or don't do it, it's about how dioceses have helped some clergy evade justice - they have admitted doing that.

The thing is not the amount of paedophilia cases in church but how the church acted.

Exactly

It also turns out that the 2% homosexuals account for over one-third of all paedophilic assaults on young boys.

Or perhaps they're just one of those groups like teachers who are especially vulnerable to false allegations.... It's also an affluent demographic, which is a magnet for chancers. Most false allegations by the way are as Johnny Reb said, connected to a divorce, especially from former step-daughters.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jun 2015  #113
teachers who are especially vulnerable to false allegations....

Not only teachers but also priests. There have been cases of people coming forward (when they got a whiff of the big money swirling about) that claimed a deceased priest had buggered them when they were young. Whether that ilk actually got any bread, I dont' know, but it is symptomatic of the temptation any kind of reparation potential generates.
jon357 63 | 14,124
12 Jun 2015  #114
Not only teachers but also priests.

Absolutely.

The issue with clergy isn't just about whether they've done it or not, but about the way the RCC has covered up proven cases and helped people who are guilty evade justice. Some dioceses abroad have admitted they did this. There was also a case in the UK where they paid a parent to keep quiet.

There have been cases of people coming forward (when they got a whiff of the big money swirling about) that claimed a deceased priest had buggered them when they were young.

This is also true. When compensation for historic allegations was stopped just over the border in Germany, the number of allegations dropped by 80% overnight.
Harry
12 Jun 2015  #115
I know of one awful case (reported at the time in some, but only some of the Polish media) of a case of a lady in a village who walked in on her 10 year old son and the parish priest.

Wasn't that the case in Witonia with that Wincent Pawlowicz? Utterly sickening case. What made it worse was the way that the RCC kept moving him on to new parishes, as if covering up for him wasn't enough. Eventually they had to move him to Ukraine, where he didn't last long before attracting law enforcement attention and being moved back to Poland by the church.

At his first trial he was sentenced to 20 months in prison for raping young boys (he was never charged for making and distributing kiddie **** or pimping boys from Witonia to other priests). Any guesses why he got such a light sentence? Public outcry resulted in the prosecutor appealing and the sentence was increased to 36 months.

After he got out he was given his old job back but the backlash forced the RCC to move him to Ukraine again. Last I heard he was still there, but making regular visits to Poland and had been seen working at a Kielce seminary. The mind really does boggle at the idea the RCC thinks a man convicted of raping young boys can teach trainee priests anything at all.

I'm sure you're computer-savvy enough to have heard of Google. He who seeks, finds!

So you mean it's just yet another of the claims you make here and have absolutely nothing to support it with. Your 'claim' is as valid as somebody posting here that in order to becoming an RCC priest a man has to rape a different child every day during lent (and two each Sunday) and then when asked for proof simply saying "I'm sure you're computer-savvy enough to have heard of Google. He who seeks, finds!"

WTF?

Just more trolling from jonny; I thought you know better than to feed a troll.
jon357 63 | 14,124
12 Jun 2015  #116
Wasn't that the case in Witonia with that Wincent Pawlowicz?

Looks like the same one - no name or village were given at the time.

There's also the Dominican Republic case, Father Wojciech Gil. He was protected by the Polish church (and vigorously defended by the usual suspects on here). He has pleaded guilty and is now serving a sentence. If it wasn't for 'the liberal media' he would still be at large, doubtless in a parish.

Archbishop Josef Wesolowski (defrocked now) is currently in the Vatican awaiting an 'internal' trial - they won't let him be extradited and he is claiming diplomatic immunity.

Significant too that Pope JPII's bosom buddy Abp. Paetz was never tried for any crime :-(
Harry
12 Jun 2015  #117
There's also the Dominican Republic case, Father Wojciech Gil.

There's a whole list of Polish paedophiles who wear cassocks here: eioba.pl/a/2p5e/koscielna-pedofilia-cz-1#ixzz2K42CjemR

So as to meet the requirement " Each link to a source written in Polish must include a summary in English", the above link lists RC priests in Poland who have been convicted of raping and/or sexually assaulting children and/or possession of kiddie porn. For each of the cases there is also the title of the published article and name of publication which covers the case.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jun 2015  #118
There's a whole list of Polish paedophiles

To balance things out, perhaps you can provide a whole list of homosexuals in casual dress who are paedophiles.
Harry
12 Jun 2015  #119
Sadly not. However, I can most certainly provide a full list of paedophiles who are not priests (or monks or nuns) but for whom the RCC has covered up paedophile crimes and enabled the offenders to offend again. Here it is:

Although if anybody does have any names to add to the list, I'd be interested in hearing the background to such cases.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
12 Jun 2015  #120
the RCC has covered up

So you've never heard of any homo paedophiles not linked to the Church? Another of your many obsessions (RC-bashing, micro-chipping, Sunday head count, 14-year-olds marrying)? What about PT instructors, scoutmasters, teachers, doctors, etc.


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