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Poland -- Europe's only counterweight to Russia


AdrianK9 6 | 364
13 Apr 2016 #151
Poland doesn't stand a chance against Russia - and this is coming from someone who's uncle is a Major in the land forces... Poland would get steamrolled faster than it did by the Nazis and Soviets in WW2. You better believe the US, UK, or France wouldn't help either - just as they didn't during WW2. The most they would do is speak out against Russia and maybe add some more economic sanctions - but as far as actual military help - forget it.

The only thing Poland could do if Russia invaded is have some sort of guerrilla saboteur type of war to slow them down. Russia isn't interested in attacking Poland though - it doesn't have the same historical or geographic significance or even a minority Russian population like Ukraine.
jon357 74 | 21,834
13 Apr 2016 #152
Read the thread title, before commenting inanely. It's about Poland's role as a geopolitical counterweight.

Remember Poland is a full member of both NATO and the EU.
Crow 155 | 9,030
13 Apr 2016 #153
Polish-Russian wars belongs to past. Balance of power and influence in Eastern Europe and within Slavic world is re-established. Wounds dealt by Ottoman Turkish invasion into Europe are being healed. Conditions are created for end of western European schemes and experiments with the region.

Russia and Poland should follow example of Serbia and Hungary and, by the God they will.

Good news for all wise Poles >>>

Vucic praises Hungary as Serbia's "true friend"

Source: Tanjug Wednesday, April 13, 2016 | 16:17
b92/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2016&mm=04&dd=13&nav_id=97679

hs

L-R: Hungarian PM Viktor Orban, Masterplast's Tivadar Bunford (General manager of big Hungarian company that invests in Serbia), Serbian PM Aleksandar Vucic (Tanjug)

"..... Thank you Viktor for supporting Serbia in difficult moments," Vucic said, addressing his Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban ......

According to Vucic, Hungary has supported Serbia ............ We know how to keep in mind true friends."

Children of Poland can sleep in peace. No, there won`t be any kind of war between Poland and Russia. This region, our regions from Baltic to Balkan have brighter future. As Polish president Duda announced, Intermarium awaits us. Hungary and Serbia are real proof of it. And, it all goes without interference and obstacles by Russia but, obstacles creating western Europe and USA.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
13 Apr 2016 #154
geopolitical counterweight.

More like geopolitical stone in Russia's shoe...

Poland is definitely NOT Europe's only counterweight to Russia - out of the border countries even Turkey has a more powerful army. Poland is perhaps a bit more powerful than the Baltic countries but less so than like Germany, France, Turkey, etc.

Russia and Poland should follow example of Serbia and Hungary and, by the God they will.

I really really want Poland to form better relations with Russia, Serbia, and the Visegard 4. I'd love to see a breaking away from Brussels hegemony and closer ties with the East. The West is on a downward spiral - Poland is going to have to make some decisions whether to go down with it. Personally, I'd be in favor of Poland making ties with countries like Serbia, Hungary, Russia, China, Pakistan, Iran, etc. - these are the countries that have realized that the US, EU, and NATO really aren't as powerful as they use to be.
Crow 155 | 9,030
13 Apr 2016 #155
Remember Poland is a full member of both NATO and the EU.

jon357, honestly man, when i read your comments its like to read classical example of brainwashing indoctrination. Look this sentence: ``Remember Poland is a full member of both NATO and the EU.`` To put cross on myself. That is awful. Before that you said: ``Read the thread title, before commenting inanely. It's about Poland's role as a geopolitical counterweight.`` That is like that you think to yourself ``let me remind Poles what is their role. They must stay in fear from Russia mind set. Its good for them and, of course its good for us Anglos. He, he``

i am shocked and appealed. People like you again and again remind me why i don`t like Britain. So, no you won`t. It would be exactly as we Serbians want. There won`t be war between Poland and Russia. Just like that. It won`t.
InPolska 10 | 1,818
13 Apr 2016 #156
"lol"! Crow accusing others (np Jon) to be ...... brainwashed!!!! ;) Unbelievable!
AdrianK9 6 | 364
13 Apr 2016 #157
i don`t like Britai

Same. London by far was my least favorite city and England my least favorite country in Europe - and I've traveled all over Europe. Although it was unique to see the men better dressed and in better shape than the women. It reminded me of a european version of Chicago - meaning nothing to brag about and everything you don't want like terrible traffic, bad weather, ugly people, and a very high population density with no room to move around. The beer was good - but the food not so much. Mayonaise with fries- I'll pass...

Many Brits are brainwashed - it's not their fault entirely. I thought free speech was limited in the US till I researched England.

We should start a thread on this... Why England sucks and why some Brits come to Poland..
Crow 155 | 9,030
13 Apr 2016 #158
Many Brits are brainwashed - it's not their fault entirely. I thought free speech was limited in the US till I researched England.

i hope that is just this generation and, few more, alright many more but, if we ignore their idiots, they had great people from time to time who contributed to humanity. Still, much more pests then great people. All in all sh** with few exceptions. My grandmother would say Govna.
whocares
13 Apr 2016 #159
I really really want Poland to form better relations with Russia, Serbia, and the Visegard 4.

Its good you have open mind. If Poland does the above it should do so very carefully. I imagine a ******** load of sanctions and a propaganda war. Its not easy because of current Poles views. You would need to create a counterpropaganda.

You have to keep in mind that the UK has invaded and/or colonized the most countries in the world and there is chance it just uses Poland. The establishment of wealthy Anglosaxons and Jews is still nested in cities like London and New York.

Same. London by far was my least favorite city and England my least favorite country in Europe -

Its becoming less white British day by day. Maybe the multicultarism got to you. It would **** me off too.
Crow 155 | 9,030
13 Apr 2016 #160
Serbia, Hungary,

one of things behind the scene is that Hungary and Serbia consider itself to belong to Poland`s sphere of influence and they have common problem with Croatia that traditionally goes in German sphere of influence. Now, Hungary and Serbia knows that in reality Croatia represent false formation where are Catholic and Orthodox Serbs subjugated to Catholic Croats. Just, those Catholic Croats opposing Vatican and listen solely Germany and that is why already Greater Croatia threatening both- Hungary and Serbia, with even more dreams of something even Greater. On that, Hungary and Serbia responded with kind of mutual protection pact. No, not because they are afraid of Croatia but to send clear political message that sh** won`t be tolerated. So, if things gets ugly, Hungary and Serbia would make order in the region. Meaning, liberation for Catholic and Orthodox Serbs in what is now Croatia and,... well Croats said for themselves that they aren`t neither the Serbs, neither the Slavs.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
13 Apr 2016 #161
"......reminded me of a european version of Chicago - meaning nothing to brag about and everything you don't want like terrible traffic....."

Hey, hey now; you must not know interesting people in Chicago. The restaurants are marvelous; the museums top-notch; the architecture is a wonder. Evidently, you somehow missed the many many acres of Grant Park, Lincoln Park, the lake shore beaches for miles, and the numerous smaller parks, etc.

You need to develop some up-scale friends. Okay, we have a lot of murders but you know where most of them are committed and besides, we now have conceal-and carry in the city, not that I've needed to use it (so far).
AdrianK9 6 | 364
13 Apr 2016 #162
Maybe the multicultarism got to you

One of the many reasons haha = but not the main one honestly. I live in a very diverse city (granted my suburb is like 95% white, perhaps 4% asian and 1% black with very few jews as this is a WASP stronghold) so I'm use to it. However, when I travel through Europe I like to be with Europeans. If I wanted to be surrounded by Pakistanis and Indians I'd go to Lahore or Mumbai.

The establishment of wealthy Anglosaxons and Jews is still nested in cities like London and New York.

They're in nearly EVERY western country - even places like Argentina and Moldova. Although Europe and NYC was the original stronghold of the Rothschild, Warburgs, Guggenheims and the original banking families.

Its good you have open mind. If Poland does the above it should do so very carefully

At the very least, I feel that Poland ought to shift away from economic reliance on the west and realize the enormous market potential of places like Russia, China, and Iran. These three countries have been making treaty after trade agreement with each other as they realize they've got to be each other's friends against the EU, US, and NATO.

I would love to see more cheaply made Chinese, Russian, or even Iranian goods in Poland and more Polish high quality exports to Russia. I know the EU sanctions did hurt Poland a little bit and some Russians would smuggle Polish goods into the country - namely food, especially cheeses.

I'm a lover of the free market - I think that Poland should trade with whoever it is economically beneficial - not solely on who the EU dictates that we trade with.

Zimmy, I live in Chicago.... it sucks...

many many acres of Grant Park, - big open field with a few trees - not impressed
Lincoln Park - full of yuppies, hipsters, and trust fund babies. there's a few good bars but that's it - which would be nice to go to if you could actually park your car within the same 5 blocks as the bar.

the lake shore beaches for miles - full of trash and fat ugly women - unlike the shores of Spain, the French Riviera, or even Gdansk

and the numerous smaller parks, etc. - like the ones infested with gangs such as Garfield park, Riis park, portage park, and just about any other small park in the city. Even without the gangs, they're still totally unimpressive - grass with no unique landscaping or even flowers for that matter and a couple of ash trees that grow thanks to a steady diet of cigarrette butts..

I've lived in Chicago most of my life - it's overrated, overly expensive (further 17% property tax increase on properties worth over $250k), and there's hardly anything special about it. Aside from the L, the average street in Chicago will look nearly identical to that of Philly, Milwaukee, Boston, or just about any other generic major city in the US.

There's a reason why the population has been going down just about every year since 2000 in Chicago (at that year it had a height of 2.89 million - that's the highest it's been in 16 years) - the people who have the means to move out, do... including the corporations and businesses

Stick to the topic please
jon357 74 | 21,834
14 Apr 2016 #163
Poland is definitely NOT Europe's only counterweight to Russia - out of the border countries even Turkey has a more powerful army.

You can't alter geography. And Poland is the major Slavic country within the EU. And yes, it is a great counterweight to Russian ambitions in the region.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
14 Apr 2016 #164
Please... this is coming from someone who was born and raised in Poland and had to learn Russian as a second language.. Poland is a NATO buffer state against Russia, merely a geopolitical pawn to set up missle defences against missles from landing in Germany, France, UK, etc. At least now the new government is realizing how it's been played all along. Russia would steamroll Poland almost as quickly as it did Georgia. I'm not saying I want that to happen as I love Poland, but I also am being realistic.

Putin, who I have lots of respect for, has bigger fish to fry than worrying about invading Poland. I certainly hope in time Poland learns to make better relationships with the Russians as both parties could benefit. History tells us though that it'll be a long uphill battle though and may never happen. Atleast there's still our Czech, Serbian, Slovak, and Hungarian friends.

I will cite Sienkiewicz who said Poland exists only on paper and Sikorski who said we slob on American knob.. Poland is a counterweight to Russia because it is a EU/UN/NATO pawn... and like in chess, you frequently have to sacrifice a pawn or two to obtain a better position - no country would help Poland if invaded. This is why I wish at the very least Poland would disregard EU sanctions against Russia especially as PL farmers are really feeling the sting against this.
dolnoslask 6 | 2,946
14 Apr 2016 #165
Sikorski see below

liveleak.com/view?i=76a_1403531657&comments=1

Yes I know it's RT lol
jon357 74 | 21,834
14 Apr 2016 #166
Sikorski

A very strong believer in the EU and certainly no apologist for Russia.
Crow 155 | 9,030
14 Apr 2016 #167
Atleast there's still our Czech, Serbian, Slovak, and Hungarian friends.

Poland isn`t alone.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
14 Apr 2016 #168
A very strong believer in the EU and certainly no apologist for Russia.

True. Also a believer that Poland is America/NATO's lapdog.

Poland isn`t alone.

Thankfully yes. Poland has a great relationship with the Visegard 4 - which I would love to see Serbia a part of. However, Polish leadership, in business and politics, need to understand that the West is on a decline. Poland can sell burqas for the newly arrived migrants in Belgium and Germany, but I think they'd be better off forming new trade agreements with countries like Russia, China, and Iran - those are the countries that are on the upswing now... and I guess also Mexico, Brazil, Mongolia, Vietnam, etc. The point is though, the Poland needs to focus less on German and the rest of the EU and focus more, at the very least on the economic benefits, on making better relations with other countries outside the EU.

Poland actually just signed a huge trade agreement with Kazakhstan recently - a country I am considering working in actually (especially if Hillary wins). The economy of Kazakhstan is wonderful - huge oil, uraniam and mineral deposits, low debt, 2:1 export to import ratio, low unemployment, rising GDP per capita and PPP, moderate inflation, diversified economy, undervalued currency - they have everything going for them. The government pays foreign workers $80k USD a year for entry level positions with only 10% going towards income tax and free room and board and even airfare covered. You can live like a king on $40k USD in Kazakhstan, let alone double.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Apr 2016 #169
they have everything going for them.

...except a blatant lack of democracy.
jon357 74 | 21,834
14 Apr 2016 #170
True. Also a believer that Poland is America/NATO's lapdog.

Yes, you said that before, albeit in a cruder way.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that Poland vastly prefers NATO and the EU to the Russian sphere of influence. Counterbalance is a strong word given the size and level of danger from Europe, however as a keen member of the EU and NATO, Poland has a robust role in countering Russian geopolitical ambitions.

...except a blatant lack of democracy.

And of course they are one of the most corrupt major states in the world.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
14 Apr 2016 #171
...except a blatant lack of democracy.

'Democracy' isn't everything, and is oftentimes overrated... there are plenty of countries with a high HDI and happy citizens that are ruled by the same president for decades, a monarch, dictator, etc. India is the world's largest democracy yet most people are dirt poor - many emigrate or work in countries Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, which are the furthest things from democracies.

Libya under Gaddafi is one such example, same with U.A.E., Bahrain, or Qatar - those aren't democracies... yet I'd much rather live there than India which is considered the world's largest democracy.

We have a so-called democracy here in the states - sure we have freedom of speech, right to bear arms, can criticize Obama etc. (granted that's gradually being taken away) and we're supposedly free - but nonetheless total slaves to banks, mortgages, ridiculous cost of living with low wages in this democracy.

Quite frankly, I'd take free housing, free healthcare, monthly dividend checks from oil sales, $50k upon marriage, etc. and give up my right to criticize the government over being an indentured servant in a democracy able to speak out against the government any day.

As far as Russia is concerned - it's a weird situation there. It's kind of like a semi-democracy increasingly nationalist type of country run by oligarchs (many of which were exiled put in prison, or murdered by Putin) and people with connections to the old Communists.
jon357 74 | 21,834
14 Apr 2016 #172
'Democracy' isn't everything, and is oftentimes overrated.

According to you - others might say it's the best system we know.

monarch

Not incompatible with democracy.

free housing, free healthcare, monthly dividend checks from oil sales, $50k upon marriage, etc.

They have that in Russia? Amazing all those people want to leave...

And Russia is a country to which Poland is rightly very negative. Not a counterweight - the EU (of which Poland is an enthusiastic member) as a whole has that global role, hence Putin's attempts at destabilisation.
Ironside 53 | 12,448
14 Apr 2016 #173
Defence chief Antoni Macierewicz told a TV interviewer that Poland is regarded as the only force able to serve as a counterweight to Russia and that this decison changes the entire geopolitcial situation.

Hmm ..how? The only real way to counterweight Russia is for Poland and other countries of the eastern Europe to build their own close knitted alliance partly military like NATO and partly economical like EEA.

That would shift a geopolitical balance from Russia to Poland&friends and would bring stability to this part of the world.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
14 Apr 2016 #174
They have that in Russia? Amazing all those people want to leave...

No, they did in Libya under Gaddafi before Clinton turned the country in a total ruin. I would've loved to live in Gaddafi's Libya. Funny how we can decide at the drop of a hat which dictators are A-Okay and which need to be murdered. Let's not forget the US had a good relationship with Saddam before the 90's and 2000's.

According to you - others might say it's the best system we know.

Some argue democracy is best, some argue socialism is best, some argue anarchy... I think each system has it's pro's and con's and some governments work well for certain countries and certain demographics where as another one wouldn't.

Personally, I think that in democracies the politicians spend way too much time worrying about campaigning and elections instead of governing. Even with a 4 year presidency - 1 - 1 1/2 years are going to be focused on campaigning and election season. If you have a leader that's been doing a great job for 5, 10, 20 years why not keep him?

And Russia is a country to which Poland is rightly very negative.

Yes, because of the centuries of wars on both sides. There's suspicious among Poles, especially those who have lived under communism like myself (granted at the very tail end of it) and my parents but the view is changing with the younger generation. Personally, I'd just like to see individuals like Polish farmers not be told by some guy in Brussels who they can and can't sell their peppers and vegetables to. Polish farmers have really suffered because of the sanctions. What I am stating is that I hope Poland can realize that the West is in decline and buddy up with countries that are on the rise - like Kazakhstan for one with whom Poland just signed a very important trade deal which will benefit both parties.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Apr 2016 #175
That would shift a geopolitical balance from Russia to Poland&friends and would bring stability to this part of the world.

It would need a fundamental change in Polish attitudes though. I've said it a few times on here - Poland would be wise to let go of history and minor grudges and focus heavily on establishing cooperation with neighbouring states. Poland providing air policing for the Baltic countries was a good start, but there needs to be much, much more. A good idea (for instance) would be to create a joint Polish-Lithuanian border guard under rotating command with responsibility for patrolling the border with Russia and Belarus.
jon357 74 | 21,834
14 Apr 2016 #176
No, they did in Libya under Gaddafi

I wonder what that's got to do with Poland as a counterbalance to the Russian threat.

I would've loved to live in Gaddafi's Libya

Having been there, I doubt you'd have liked it.

There's suspicious among Poles, especially those who have lived under communism like myself (granted at the very tail end of it)

Massive suspicions, and all justified.

Polish farmers have really suffered because of the sanctions

Those would be the same farmers who have done very well out of the EU.

The sanctions against Russia are there for a reason, and Poland (including the current President Duda whoi has recently spoken in favour of maintaining them) is resolute in its support of Ukraine and other states threatened by Russian expansionism.
Crow 155 | 9,030
14 Apr 2016 #177
western European definition of democracy is quite flexible. You obey them and you are democratic. You oppose them you aren`t democratic. Once they declare you to be non-democratic you are on their menu.

Poland has a great relationship with the Visegard 4 - which I would love to see Serbia a part of.

Hungary doing its part. Orban today criticized Croatia for blocking Serbia`s EU negotiations. In reality, neither the Hungary, neither the Serbia aren`t quite upset because of Croatian blockade (Hungarians and Serbians don`t have sweet dreams about EU anymore) but, rather, Hungary and Serbia demonstrate their united respond to regional and global challenges. Ultimately, what we see here is that Poland`s sphere of influence clash with German sphere of influence. Germany obviously sense that would Serbian entry in EU strengthen Poland (and make Poland and Serbia closer) and so Croatia got signal to make obstacles to Serbia. In turn, Hungary reacts on behalf of Serbia.

The only real way to counterweight Russia

please, don`t buy that. Poland needs to look its own business, not to exist to counterweight Russia or anybody. From necessity to look for its own business, Poland would know, if come to some challenge, how to respond, whom to counterweight. Particular occasion would dictate Poland`s position and not necessity of Anglos to manipulate with Poland.

Poland and other countries of the eastern Europe to build their own close knitted alliance partly military like NATO and partly economical like EEA.

not like NATO. We need Intermarium

That would shift a geopolitical balance from Russia to Poland&friends and would bring stability to this part of the world.

no, it won`t shift and it don`t need to shift. What we need is multi-polar world and Intermarium as one of powers (centers) of that world. That would maintain balance of power and secure peace and prosperity.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
14 Apr 2016 #178
I wonder what that's got to do with Poland as a counterbalance to the Russian threat.

Is your memory that abysmally short? Too much marijuana? I stated that Poland is increasingly looking for trade deals elsewhere and not just in the EU - like the deal with Kazakhstan. To which you commented that they are corrupt and copied delph's post that they have a lack of democracy - which has nothing to do with Poland nor Russia. To which I unfortunately fell for your tangent bait and responded that democracy doesn't necessarily mean a high standard of living and happy citizens and explained how certain countries that are run by dictators offer (or in this case offered) their citizens healthcare, education, dividend checks, etc. to which you ignorantly thought I was speaking of Russia due to your poor reading comprehension skills.

Those would be the same farmers who have done very well out of the EU.

The same farmers who have seen a drop in agricultural income since 2011 and a significant decline in employment.

ibtimes.co.uk/poland-norway-be-hardest-hit-by-russian-sanctions-1461013
The country exports over $1.12bn of agricultural products to Russia every year and its fruit sector, apples in particular, would face a severe blow.

Some sources like Bloomberg say that the figure is closer to $2 billion a year in losses for the agricultural industry thanks to the Russian sanctions.

I'll use apples as an example as up until recently, I had a hectare sized apple orchard on my property and loved making wine out of apples. Say that I was under contract to provide x kilos of apples to two companies - one in Germany, one in Russia - as most farmers sell their harvests to either one or very few customers - they don't have 100's of customers (unless they have like a small market stall type of operation where they sell their goods locally). Like my uncle for example lives on a farm and sells all his goods to a company named Golpasz. For the most part it involves a contract and filling a quota with a certain good of a certain quality by a set date. If suddenly sanctions prevent me from sending my apples to my Russian customer - well my contract is now null and void and it'd be illegal for me to go through with it. I just lost 1/2 my customers. So now, not only did I lose what could've been my only customer - if I was only exclusively selling to a Russians, but now I have to find a new customer to buy the apples from me - which there aren't many in the EU that want Polish apples. Meanwhile, the Russian customer is upset because now he also has to find a new source so that he can fulfill his own contractual obligations - whether they're providing apples to a grocery store, or apples to a company to make apple sauce, or whatever. Now, the consumer at the Russian supermarket feels this effect as suddenly the price of apples has gone up 50% if not more. So a person already hit hard by the decline of the rouble now has to spend even more money on a basic food item.

bbc.com/news/business-28879165
Specifically about Polish apple growers feeling a squeeze:

"We are happy with the quality, but just don't know whether we can sell our apples or what price we can now get. The kind of apples we grow are good sellers in Russia but less popular in many other places in Europe."

Now is it worth for a poor Polish family to face financial ruin just because a guy in Brussels can decide for them who they can and cannot sell apples to? I think not...
jon357 74 | 21,834
14 Apr 2016 #179
Too much marijuana?

???

The same farmers who have seen a drop in agricultural income since 2011 and a significant decline in employment.

And increased subsidies. The difference in standard of living out in the sticks is palpable.

The country exports over $1.12bn of agricultural products to Russia every year and

Not any more we don't.

Now is it worth for a poor Polish family to face financial ruin just because a guy in Brussels can decide for them who they can and cannot sell apples to?

In fact, as you were told before, the Polish government and the main opposition party are wholeheartedly behind the sanctions. As President Duda recently affirmed to the man who is now Ukraine's new Prime Minister.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
14 Apr 2016 #180
And increased subsidies. The difference in standard of living out in the sticks is palpable.

Offset by increased prices for food and higher taxes.

Not any more we don't.P

Yeah I know - thanks to the sanctions we don't anymore

Polish government and the main opposition party are wholeheartedly behind the sanctions.

I know and it's unfortunate.

What I am certain of though is that some capitalist minded individuals are certainly taking advantage of the sanctions to smuggle goods from Poland into Russia. I have heard of one particular incident where a Russian was caught on the border with a truck full of Polish cheeses and other dairy products.


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