Poland -- Europe's only counterweight to Russia

I'm talking about Ukraine.


No, there are many powerful people in Russia (or abroad) who could have sponsored these crimes for their own interests. I can't say who was behind these murders, because I truly don't know. And that's the main difference between you and me: I don't pretend I know, when you seem to know all the truth about everything, especially about Russia. Which is obviously not the case anyway. You should doubt more, Jon.


Again, simplistic. Yanukovich was indeed closer to Russia than Poroshenko is, but I'm not sure he was a "Putinist puppet".
And it's not the point anyway. The point is: the previous government was corrupt, the current one is at least as much corrupt.


Seriously, it's a sickness. You can't talk without mentioning Putin's name (that you spell incorrectly by the way) all the time.


Could you be more ridiculous that that? I wonder... Yes, Jon, I know that Google is a search engine, and that's EXACTLY why I was asking for REAL sources, and not random quotations you found from a random research. Do you understand what I'm saying or should I start speaking French?

Since I'm a good guy, I'll try to explain better with an example (don't thank me, I'm glad I can help). I too could make some research on Google and find, among millions of results that, for instance, Italy is planning to invade Vatican city. Does it mean it's true? Does it mean we should believe this "information" without digging a little deeper?

And don't tell me you're "cool", because you're clearly not. You cannot refrain from calling me names, even though I'm just trying to debate with you. It's a chance I'm not like you. This conversation would look even more childish.

And for your information, I'm partly Polish. Why would I "defend" Russia if I believed it was a credible threat to Poland's security?

I support a smart and peaceful approach to international relations, which means avoiding panic and paranoia, especially when it could lead to a nuclear war. I'll repeat once again what I've already said a bunch of times: to me, Russia doesn't constitute a threat to Poland's security and integrity. But an hypothetical war between Russia and the West would put Poland in the front line of an unprecendented world disaster.

Yes, and you touted corruption levels under the former Putinist government as a reason for Putin to invade the now! Classic...


As a French speaker you have probably figured out why...


Random quotes? Random research? Do you expect everyone that call you out to pop down to the National Library and pore through archived manuscripts? You were called out on your bullcrap - get used to it instead of squirming.

To repeat. Russia openly threatens Poland. has invaded a sovereign state friendly to Poland. Poland does not trust Russia. Nor do most other stable democratic countries.

No, no, no... Maybe if I spoke French you'd understand better what I'm saying ;)
I was ONLY saying that the previous government was corrupt, and the new one, supported by the West (as "democratic") is at least as corrupt if not more. SO, the "revolution" that we supported (and even sponsored) didn't make the situation any better in Ukraine. It may have made it even worse.


Indeed, but I didn't want to believe that you'd use such a bad word in a grown-up conversation ;)


I expect people who debate with me to check their sources and share them with me, and not hide them. Otherwise, the argument is null and void.


How and when? You still haven't answered that question.


If it had, it would only concern Crimea, which is a very specific case.
Talking about "friendly states" (which doesn't mean much in international affairs), the ties between Ukraine and Russia are much, much closer than between Ukraine and Poland. You should have a closer look at Ukraine's population and history on that matter.

You're very entitled to say that, but really it's neither here nor there in relation to Ukraine's sovereignty. If having corruption issues (as do so many countries including Poland, Italy and most of South America) was justification for another country with even more corruption issues to invade them, then fine. But it isn't.


Hide sources in what way? By citing them? I don't much like the phrase 'LOL' but it really does fit here.


See above. Unless you still pretend that any source that has been put online and indexed by a search engine is not infact reliable. Another LOL...


A brutal and bloody invasion 'close ties'? Come off it!

Exactly why the border needs to get moved as far East as possible for the good of all concerned, as Putin has offered to accept.


Stalin killed and deported many Catholics, non-Ukrainian Ruthenians from Western Ukraine. The Ukrainian fascists also killed more. Ethnic "Ukrainians" in Siberia are more likely to have Polish roots. Ukraine is "friendly" to Poland only so far as it is threatened and in need. What Poland gets from this relationship, other than cheaper vodka, and cheap labor, is difficult to understand. Much art, museum collections, and archives, have yet to be returned.


Don't argue with an idiot. People may not be able to tell the difference. The same must be true for a discussion with a silly sod.

Poland however is not interested in changing its current borders in any way, shape or form.

However much you wish the opposite were true...

Jon isn't interested in changing Poland's borders to protect its citizens from attack, but a British citizen cannot speak for Poland! When Putin escalates in Ukraine, which he does not recognize as a legitimate state, which he clearly intends to do in the near future, all the faux Polish citizens here will sh!t their pants and run back to Mother England.

Only the Polish government canspeak for Poland - not me, not you. And further encroaches on Ukraines sovereignty will almost certainly be protested by Poland on an international level as they were when the illegal invasion started and as they have been at every stage since by both parties in government during the period.

When Poland' s border was changed by Stalin and others claiming to speak for Poland, neither Poland's government nor its people were consulted. That will not stand.

It will stand, not least because Poland recognises its current borders and has no will as a country to change them.

Assorted online cranks may have creepy ideas about annexing neighbours. The reality is different.

It's not really about corruption, but more about the fact that we supported another regime change in an independent country (talking about sovereignty), and promising its population a better life (like eventually joining the EU and NATO) which obviously we cannot provide. So, we used and reused the argument of corruption to justify our meddling (and the ousting of the previous government), but when we look at the situation as it is now, we can see that we failed, big time.


Yes, by citing them, telling me you found them on Google, which is not a source per se, as we both agreed.


You're right, you shouldn't use it.


This shows how naive you can be. A search engine's role is not to index "reliable" contents, but just ANY contents, billions of them.

Russian sources are indexed on Google too, sources you wouldn't find "reliable" for sure.
So, for the umpteenth time, in what way does Russia CURRENTLY (not 40 years ago) threaten Poland?
In other words, what would Russia benefit from invading Poland?


Yes, close ties. Most people in Eastern Ukraine (which covers a vast area) have Russian as their primary langage, and/or are of Russian descent, and/or are married to Russians, and/or work with Russians, etc. If you can't understand that the country isn't homogeneous as Poland is, and that its relations with Russia (historically, economically, culturally, etc.) are strong, then you can't understand the situation in Ukraine.

I told you, it's not just another cowboy story. The good guy on one side VS the bad guy on the other side.
And talking about being brutal, ask the populations of Odessa or Donetsk what they think of the government forces.


Indeed. The same can be said, unfortunately, about the relationships between Poland and Western Europe. There is no such thing as "friendly states".

Yhe truth is western europe gets benefits from poland and vice versa and a united europe is strong and diverse.
It is obvious who doesn't really want a strong united europe. If I was russian leader I would immiedately do the folowing;
1. Leave countries who don't want me.
2. Make frienfs with usa and europe.
3. Open borders and start biggest trade russia has ever done with all of europe.
4. Sneak into eu by improving country to meet standard.
5. Take my place as power in europe with britannia, france and germany.
6. Live long and prosper and make russia an actual superpower again.
7. Ignore the turkey.

Ps....if the russian government is reading this feel free to make me an offer to come help you drive forward the above without delay.

As is usual with our pro-Russian friend, he is completely wrong.

In 1992, the Polish-Ukrainian border was confirmed with the Treaty of Friendship between Poland and Ukraine.

Nope! The only ones in western Europe to get any benefits from Poland are the multinational companies firing at home in order to hire cheaper labor in Poland (and elsewhere). The "normal" western guy/woman gets nothing and is even worse off than before, because losing their jobs as they are "too expensive" and through their tax, they subsidize everybody in the rest of EU. This week, further to referendum held in the Netherlands, I heard several Dutch policians saying that all the Dutch had more than enough of the EU. I don't know whether ALL the Dutch but I am sure MOST of them do and it is the case in ALL western countries, the huge majorities of people are fed up and want to get out of EU asap (unfortunately not so easy to do..). Should the British vote to get out (which I doubt since even if people are not happy, they often prefer the "status quo" rather than the unknown), it would be the end of the EU as it would encourage anti-EU parties all over the place. I would love it if the British (or anyone else by the way) could help end this huge and expensive mess...

EU is also TOO weak because NOT united. How can we have a common strategy for a whole continent with so many completely dfferent countries? Larger Europe = weaker Europe.

EU should have remained at the stage it was when it started in 1957 (Germany, France, Italy (these 3 countries pay now over 50% of EU's budget), Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) and it would fit me...

Letting poor countries into EU only makes EU weaker and its people poorer.

The EU does NOT work with 28 countries, so how the h...ll can it be expected to work with 30, 32, 40 or even 95 countries? The more the merrier ...

honestly, this thread is insult for Poles and mockery of Poland

why counterweight to Russia? why counterweight to anybody?

Can you even imagine, for example, one Anglo-Saxon person say something like that `Poland -- Europe's only counterweight to Russia`? Anglo-Saxons only think of Poles as of cannon fodder, subhumans and infidels, humiliate them in every opportunity. Let Anglos have that honor and exist only to be Europe's only counterweight to Russia.

Really

Truth Crow, I really don't want to see a war with Russia and Poland

Id have a few beers and party if that latter part happened.


The EU is not "strong" or "united". Its an experiment and its failing badly.
There are hundreds of millions of Europeans who are not very happy with current situation.


There are many outside folk who love the fact Poland is right in the zone. These outsiders have their own interests (neocons, corporations, certain Western countries, etc). I pray there never is conflict/war in Poland or around it in any large scale.

What about including Austria, Finland and Sweden into the mix? All of those are pretty much compatible with the original 6, and I'd argue the case for Ireland as well.

The rest, most probably not. Perhaps Slovenia, as they're very similar culturally to Austria, as well as Estonia that looks to Finland. But the rest - no way. Maybe at a push Malta, because they aren't offensive and don't really cause any trouble while being richer than poor parts of Italy.

I still think the big mistake the EU made was in rushing in with the extra 13 countries between 2004 and 2013. Even these days, I would've only taken Slovenia, Estonia and Malta. The rest simply weren't ready.

Yes, Delph! It would fit me as they (Austria, Finland, Sweden) are in fact compatible. Yes, a big mistake in 2004. Having countries like Poland has resulted in millions of jobs lost in the west and hundreds of millions euros or whatever else currencies to their taxpayers. If the EU were to organize referenda in all western Europe, we would see huge scores against EU but of course they would never organize referenda. In western Europe, only the multinational companies are in favor of Europe (great for them to pay salaries of for instance 3,000 ZL instead of 3,000 euros or pounds) and average citizens are against since nothing positive, only problems (jobs leaving for cheaper labor countries, open borders letting anyone entering and we see the results....). There was a referendum this week in the Netherlands but the media have been discrete about it. I'm sure that most western Europeans cannot take it any longer.

If only the UK could vote against the EU, it would be the beginning of the end as most western countries would demand to get out. Although I doubt they will, I hope UK voters will vote 'no" to EU. If so, believe me, I'll buy Champagne ;)

In EU, it is easy, there are countries paying and others receiving with NO effort. As as to the socalled free circulation of workers within EU, it's pure BS since it is East-West and not both ways When a guy from Luxembourg or Finland (for instance) will immigrate to Poland, Romania or Croatia because similar (if not better) conditions (salaries and welfare) than at home, it will really be EU but it will happen when pigs fly...

EU should be an economic and a political union and not a welfare agency to those who cannot make it on their own

Poland doen't support Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine. Leaders of both parties are clear on this.


And the content cited to you was respectable and neutral - it doesn't fit your hypothesis for a very obvious reason - get over that.


So what? Most people in Southern Ireland have English as their primary language. Would that excuse us invading them again?

Most Ukrainians say that it is just a matter of mafias, there are pro western mafias and there are pro russian mafias and I seriously doubt that some are better or worse than others ;). ALL the Ukrainians I personally know say that Poroshonko (spelling?) is much worse than Putin and all the others put together. The guy is most corrupt (also involved in the socalled Panama Papers; some will say Putin is but nobody claims that Putin is a democrat whereas Poro... has been introduced as a .... "democrat" by western politicians. Unfortunately, the definition of "democrat" is a rather weird concept among a lot of westerners, mainly from America, who have a very simplist view: the worst bastard will be considered a "democrat" (;) ) because he happens to be anti Russian.. Westerners, and especially Americans should grow up and realize life is not all white or black and nothing in between.

Ukraine is a huge mess and while supporting pro-western mafias, America and EU (don't they all have domestic problems to deal with instead of acting once more as the world's gendarmes??? ) make things worse. Ukraine is as corrupt as it used to be, most people barely survive and most have to go abroad for bread. What kind of country is this? Only mafias can thrive over there! My cleaning lady gets a monthly retirement of the equivalent of 20 ... euros and according to her some Ukrainians don't even get the equivalent of some 12 euros and at the same time Poro and co steal everything the country can have. Don't pretend this is ... "democraty"! I refuse to finance Ukrainian mafias with my tax money.

Sorry, financing mafias the way America and EU do with tax money ;) is wrong, this is not "helping democracy" but just to encourage crime and corruption.

Unfortunately the west (specially the US) is so dumb and blind and we all suffer from the results of their stupidity. Putin for sure is wicked but the guy is intelligent and makes all our western "leaders" look like jerks... As a matter of fact, in world affairs, Putin leads the dance and the western "leaders" try to follow.

Anyway, everybody (with nNO exception) should get the h... out of Ukraine and mind their own business! Ukrainians should take care of their things.

(As a democrat, I hate and don't support mafias)

Nice of you to speak for 40million people.


Then you must know a very unrepresentative and small number of Ukrainians.

pewglobal.org/2015/08/05/russia-putin-held-in-low-regard-around-the-world/

Where do you live to be so ignorant and not to know that a small clique of oligarques steal everything they can while the rest of the population just survive and have to go abroad for bread?

Yes, Ukraine is ruled by mafias and nobody can deny it!

PS: I don't care about Putin! Fr me, Putin and Poro are same sh### although I believe that Putin is really intelligent. If you knew about western Europe, you would know that Putin finances far right parties there (including and not only France's front national party - it's official) and that Putin and Russia are "popular" and even liked more than the US ....

Versus Opinion about Poroshenko
pewglobal.org/2015/06/10/3-ukrainian-public-opinion-dissatisfied-with-current-conditions-looking-for-an-end-to-the-crisis/

So you confirm what I have just written! Did you think that Ukrainians were kind of stupid and masochists? For sure, they cannot stand their mafias and their current government. The country is most corrupt, nothing works there, most people barely survive (for instance the cost of living is much higher than in Poland inspite of close to starvation wages whereas a handful mafiosi steal everything) and have to go abroad for bread and you would have expected them to be "happy" ;). Ukrainians are just like any other population, they want a prosperous and democratic country in which they can live properly but unfortunately foreign "'leaders" don't want to understand.

Not sure who you are responding to.

Ukrainians don't think Putin is better than Poroshenko, thats all.

I agree Ukraine is run by the Mafia, just like Russia, based on the Russian model.

just like choice between having right or left eye pulled out! ;). A "bastard" is a "bastard" and there is no hierarchy. When Poro will be kicked out (just a matter of time), he'll be replaced by someone anti-west. Western "leaders' are too stupid and too blind to realize that they are responsible for chaos and for dictators. Once more, the west will fail. Supporting corrupt bastards is wrong and nonsense! Putin knows that in the long run he'll win because he thinks like a chess player whereas westerners (especially Americans) don't think, they just act on the spur of the moment and then they observe the s### they have produced but as they don't understand, they continue elsewhere and we all suffer the conséquences). Putin is getting more and more popular among a lot of Europeans and I understand why.... I am NOT saying it is good or it is bad; I am just saying the way it is.

The most anti-western voters that were in Ukraine are now in Russia, they won't be coming back.

Russia is now Ukraine's eternal enemy, the remaining Ukrainians won't allow an anti-Western politician back into power.

Russian influence in Ukraine is gone, killed by Putin.

Thank goodness for France or you may never have been liberated. :)


Absolutely, name any country in Europe capable of helping Poland stop Putin, without having the Great United States of America for it's allied.
Besides, when was the last time you Frogs put a man on the moon ?


And neither will NATO. (the United States.)

"lol" only rednecks from America believe that Americans do things for free. If they came to Europe in 1944, it was only to avoid Russia tt take all Europe. France had to wait till de Gaulle to be free and independent from the us. there is even a statue and rondo de Gaulle in Warsaw so even Poland had and has respect for him

As you have never been to Europe, normal that you are so ignorant about our things.