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Poland -- Europe's only counterweight to Russia


jon357 74 | 21,834
3 Apr 2016 #61
Stick to the topic please

I think he's very on topic, since the behaviour of Russia, particularly sabre-rattling towards Poland and the EU and their illegal invasion of Poland's neighbour can't just be ignored when discussing this thread, nor can the phenomena of paid internet trolling by Putinists - quite a big issue right now.

A discussion about this topic that ignored the points that Pweeg mention would have an elephant in the room as big as Putin's criminal ego.
Polson 5 | 1,768
4 Apr 2016 #62
Comparing is precisely what you were doing

I didn't say that comparing was always wrong, I just said that we shouldn't try to compare things that are not comparable.

Sadly it is run by a dictator right now, however interesting that you value Russia so low that you see only those two alternatives.

Are you one of those Hillary Clinton's fanatics who are comparing Putin to Hitler?
I'm just saying that Russia is a very complex case and that you can't have an Obama or Hollande (believe me) as head of state.

If not Putin, who else? Tell me. I mean right now, who would make a better president?

No need to prove that the free world have not intervened militarily in the invasion.

No need to intervene militarily when you have spent billions of dollars to train local forces.

Russia and the Putinists illegally invaded a sovereign state.

To protect their own interest as any other world power would have done in such a situation. Let's not be hypocrites.
And again, prove me that Russia actually invaded Ukraine.
Crimea (Sebastopol) has always been a legal Russian military base, and Russia had the right to have soldiers stationing there.
"The facts however are black and white". So the blame is all on Russia and the West didn't do anything wrong, ever?

since the behaviour of Russia, particularly sabre-rattling towards Poland

Honestly, what wrong has Russia done to Poland in the recent past?

Look how many Paid for by Putin Russian Trolls we have here.

paid internet trolling by Putinists

Both ridiculous.
Don't you two have anything better to say than such silly accusations?
Jon, you seem like a smart guy. But on this issue, you sound just too emotional. Cool down, my friend.
Crow 155 | 9,030
4 Apr 2016 #63
No, my Polish sisters and brothers won`t mistake in our time. They would stick to Visegrad Group business and pledge to attract more countries there and finally to turn it into Intermarium. Nor would those who love Poles allow to western Europeans to defeat Poland. Even less would Poles give up from themselves and Poland.

And there would be what can not be. There would be never-ending battle for Sarmatian civilization. For we Sarmats are alive, we live and we shall know no fear!
pweeg3
5 Apr 2016 #64
Honestly, what wrong has Russia done to Poland in the recent past?

Invaded in 1919,1939 and 1944.
Committed genocide against the Polish people in 1940 (deported/executed half a million ++)
Occupied Poland until 1991
Destroyed Poland's economy during the occupation
Exterminated opposition to the occupation
Stole Polands sovereign property in the form of the Presidents aircraft
Practised for and threatened a nuclear attack on Warsaw and a invasion of Poland
Banned Poland's exports as an attempt at blackmail.
Been complete and utter *****.
jon357 74 | 21,834
5 Apr 2016 #65
I didn't say that comparing was always wrong, I just said that we shouldn't try to compare things that are not comparable.

Yet you were doing exactly that. Hypocrisy of the first order.

No need to intervene militarily when you have spent billions of dollars to train local forces.

Very good that free countries have responded that way. Brave Ukraine needs all the help it can get against the Putinist invasion.

And again, prove me that Russia actually invaded Ukraine

Easy. Ukraine is not Russia. Russian troops invaded. The Russian flag is illegally flying over Ukrainian territory.

You seem hell bent on defending the vile dictator Putin and his obscenely corrupt lackeys.

Honestly, what wrong has Russia done to Poland in the recent past?

It wasn't that long ago that their troops had to slink out of Poland with their tales between their legs. If you want more, Pweeg gives a nice list. Russia is regarded as a threat to freedom and democracy with very good reason.

Cool down, my friend

Cooler than you'll ever be, and certainly not defending the Putinist invasion of an independent country.

The thread title is an odd one. Poland isn't Europe's 'counterweight' to Russia - in fact most of Europe and the free world stand against Russian aggression.

Really, the world would be a better place if Putain just went off into the sunset with his new partner, Wendi Deng. Perhaps she'll rein him in a bit, however during her marriage to Rupert Muurdoch and her affair with a well known UK politician she didn't manage to do much good for either of them or their reputations. As the Polsh saying goes "Kurwa kurwie łba nie urwie".
Polson 5 | 1,768
5 Apr 2016 #66
Jon,

Yet you were doing exactly that.

What comparison did I make?

Very good that free countries have responded that way.

No, it's no "response". The US Department of State has been investing billions in that "revolution" for several years, long before the Maidan events.

Ukraine is not Russia. Russian troops invaded.

I didn't want you to give me your opinion, I was asking for evidence.

It wasn't that long ago that their troops had to slink out of Poland with their tales between their legs.

I said: what has Russia done to Poland in the RECENT PAST? Try to focus, please.

Cooler than you'll ever be

You don't sound cool, at all. You're obviously emotional on this matter. You can't discuss without being aggressive to the persons who disagree with you. For someone who calls himself a "democrat" from the "free world", this is quite a paradox. I guess your irrational fear of Russia explains a part of your behaviour.

Last but not least, and to show you how far from realities you seem to be, the world is much more heterogeneous than you think. I wouldn't say that most of the world hate Russia and Putin. The Western world represents a small part of all mankind. Other peoples throughout the world may have different opinions than you, and they're not necessarily wrong.
whocares
5 Apr 2016 #67
Jon is just butthurt (no pun intended) that Russia clamps down on certain homos.
How dare Russia have a traditionalist or conservative stance on that!
Atch 23 | 4,048
5 Apr 2016 #68
You mean the stance that lead to a St Patrick's Day flash mob being attacked in Irkutsk by a bunch of teenage yobs back in 2014 - they saw the kilts and assumed they were gay.
Crow 155 | 9,030
5 Apr 2016 #69
i something thinking to myself.

It would be much much better if title of this thread goes >>> Britain -- Europe's only counterweight to Russia

i think that title would be awesome, extraordinary and magnificent. Brits would most probably rejoice with pride. Especially English as the great overlords of entire Britain
jon357 74 | 21,834
5 Apr 2016 #70
No, it's no "response". The US Department of State has been investing billions in that "revolution" for several years, long before the Maidan events

Which is excellent. You should note that the training and aid from one free country to another is entirely open and transparent; such a contrast to Russia's funding of terrorism.

I said: what has Russia done to Poland in the RECENT PAST? Try to focus, please

The example is pretty recent. Try not to squirm please.

You're obviously emotional on this matte

Entirely objective.

It's worth pointing out to anyone reading that a quick click on your profile shows that many of the posts you make is either trying to excuse Russian aggression like their illegal invasion of Poland's friendly neighbour, Ukraine or trying to defend Putin. They have very little to say about Poland at all.

Remember here in Poland, where people are very aware of the threat from Russia and almost everyone who isn't a kid has suffered from Russian imperialism nobody believes your silly apologetics.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
5 Apr 2016 #71
having Poland as global power

Not gonna happen. Poland never was a global power - even at its apex during the Commonwealth years it was still the 4th largest country in Europe and had no colonies abroad.

I do agree whole heartedly though that Poland needs to focus more on the Visegard 4, which I'd love to see Serbia join, and not focus so much on EU hegemony. Poles in wealthy EU countries are viewed as like Mexico/Mexicans here in the US - cheap, skilled labor and a great local place for low cost manufacturing.

paid internet trolling by Putinists

Actually this is factual. Online trolling is actually a pretty lucrative position for a young person in Russia. I read about this a while back - the wages like $30 or something for a 12 hour shift - not bad money for a young Russian.
Polson 5 | 1,768
5 Apr 2016 #72
Which is excellent.

Thousands of dead and a collapsing economy, is this your definition of 'excellent'?

You should note that the training and aid from one free country to another is entirely open and transparent

Not if this aid is meant to cause trouble in that country.

The example is pretty recent.

You're talking about the USSR in the last century. I'm talking about Russia in 2016. So please answer my question: in what way is Russia threatening Poland in 2016?

It's worth pointing out to anyone reading that a quick click on your profile shows that many of the posts you make is either trying to excuse Russian aggression like their illegal invasion of Poland's friendly neighbour, Ukraine or trying to defend Putin.

Congratulations, you've made a pointless research. You're free to waste your time the way you please after all. None of my business.
Plus, you're wrong. Most of the threads I joined had nothing to do with Russia. And the two threads I created both clearly mention "POLAND" in big characters. Did you miss that too?

Something you probably didn't see on my profile is that I wasn't active on PF for months. So you can't really say I'm trying to actively defend anyone. I'm just sharing my point of view, as you do. If you had looked much farther in the past, I think I used to criticize Russia, but I wasn't all that informed back then. Still young and innocent ;)

And if you want to talk about Poland, then let's talk about Poland. I am just sad to see that Poland cannot move on with that russophobia stuff. I happen to read Polish news articles, it helps me understand why many Poles still hate Russia. Although, if you give a look at comments, people aren't naive, and they don't buy everything they're told. Well, some do, some don't.

Actually this is factual. Online trolling is actually a pretty lucrative position for a young person in Russia.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were trolls paid by other countries too ;)
But I swear, I'm neither Russian nor paid.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
5 Apr 2016 #73
russophobia

I agree with you - I'd love to see better relations with the Visegard 4 and Russia too. I think Poland can benefit a lot from trade with Russia - which the EU is preventing. As far as Polish society though, we've endured far too much throughout our entire history with Russia to not be russophobes. We're always going to be cautious. If maybe like 100+ years passed with no incidents, maybe opinion would change. Poles know their history very well and Russia has taken advantage of and abused Poland more times than I can count - partitions, WW2, katyn, Communism, Molotov-Ribbentrop, list goes on... I personally doubt though Poland and Russia will ever be buddy-buddy...
jon357 74 | 21,834
5 Apr 2016 #74
Thousands of dead and a collapsing economy, is this your definition of 'excellent'?

Well, Polson, I presume you mean the thousands of dead as part of the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine and the collapsing economy caused by Putin invading their main industrial region...

You're talking about the USSR in the last century.

You realise we're only at the start of this one? Maybe not...

in what way is Russia threatening Poland in 2016?

Found in 1.5 seconds on google:

Russia is threatening Poland with "most serious consequences"

Putin 'privately threatened to invade Poland, Romania and the Baltic states'

I am just sad to see that Poland cannot move on with that russophobia stuff.

Would any country be anything other than very wary indeed about a has-been and would-be superpower who has just invaded and is currently at war with their neighbour and close ally?

Bizarre and sad to see Putinist apologetics here.
whocares
5 Apr 2016 #75
The most vocal antiRussians here have been mostly British foreigners (delph, jon, harry, weg and smaller extent doug)
One of them suffers from schizophrenia repeatedly calling some Russians trolls here. Only Russian on here might be RUR (I think) who rarely comments.

I agree with you - I'd love to see better relations with the Visegard 4 and Russia too. .

Yes, but no one is asking to be buddy-buddy with Russia. Some people just want to improve relations because atm they are bad.
Any normal person knows that our two bigger neighbours havent been such friendly in the history.
the EU elite in charge now clearly dislike Visegrad for stopping immigrants. US/UK/German news looks down on the current government because it wants to defend some of Polish interests.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
5 Apr 2016 #76
The most vocal antiRussians here have been mostly British foreigners (delph, jon, harry, weg and smaller extent doug)

I assure you that most of the Polish posters on here are also strongly against Putin. Can't imagine Ironside, Wulkan or Polonius supporting Putin or anything that Russia does.
pweeg3
5 Apr 2016 #77
The most vocal antiRussians

Anyone who isn't anti-Russian isn't a Polish. Its as simple as that.

Regardless of political persuasion - PiS, PO or whatever (or national origin), there is no doubt that all differences are inconsequential compared to the existential threat of Russian Fascism.
TheOther 6 | 3,674
5 Apr 2016 #78
Anyone who isn't anti-Russian isn't a Polish. Its as simple as that.

What do you mean by "anti-Russian"? Being against Putin and his clique? Despising all Russians? If the latter, you would imply that all Poles are xenophobes. Are they?
pweeg3
6 Apr 2016 #79
Putins approval ratings at 90%, so being anti-Putin is the same as being anti-Russian because they support his actions.

Its not being Xenophobic to hate a country that wants to invade you country and extinguish it.

Russia is Poland;s enemy, their nationalism is a direct threat to Poland.

Don't attempt to blame Poland for Russia's attitude and behaviour.
Crow 155 | 9,030
6 Apr 2016 #80
hand on heart, i am absolutely convinced that Britain have much more reasons to pay internet trolls now after war in Syria nicely proved how Russia easily can bypass Poland (any country) and reach Britain. Britain is now for sure desperate to activate Polish-Russian latent antagonism.

On the other side, i wouldn`t exclude Russian trolls. USA trolls. Zimbabwean trolls. Everything is possible theoretically.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
6 Apr 2016 #81
war in Syria

Yeah Russia took care of business very quickly in Syria - I really applaud them for that. Putin spanked the monkey again.

The freedom of speech laws are appalling in Britain. I thought freedom of speech, press, assembly, etc. was under siege in America till I realized what's been happening in England. If you're not a lefty, multi-kulti lover, you essentially don't have any rights and can land in jail very easily. Even the 'patriotic' groups like the EDL aren't sincere in their actions as they are being supported by Zionists - they even have their own 'Jewish Division' inside the EDL after the rumors of Israeli support just became too prevalent and they couldn't deny them anymore.

I don't know about paid British/US state sponsored trolls. I'm sure there are ones for US political parties - but I do know for a fact that trolls are state organized and paid in Russia.

I'm one of the few Poles that likes Putin - at least he has balls and greatly diminished ISIS's unlike Obama, who instead wasted $500 million arming a couple dozen 'moderate' Syrians - most of the weapons the US sent went to ISIS and Al-Qaeda anyway.



Crow 155 | 9,030
6 Apr 2016 #82
Putin spanked the monkey again.

nasty joke. i mean, truth is sometimes just nasty

but I do know for a fact that trolls are state organized and paid in Russia.

give link. Let people take easy money. How hard can that be..
Michał
6 Apr 2016 #83
Adrian, it wasn't Putin that took quick business in russia, neither was it the 'western world'. The Iraqi put the highest pressure on ISIS. They regained much of their territories they lost in 2014. Meanwhile, Syria becomes a conflict between NATO and Russia and no one even cares about ISIS. The Russians bomb the opposition, the NATO bombs the kurds. This is just good old Cold War-style war with supporting the enemy of your enemy. Nobody seems to care of the people living there! It makes no difference if you are bombed by Russians or Americans, the should have absolutely no business there! It is a SYRIAN civil war and not the first anglo-russian war. Get over it and help the people instead of trying to prove how strong you are.
AdrianK9 6 | 364
6 Apr 2016 #84
Adrian, it wasn't Putin that took quick business in russia, neither was it the 'western world'. The Iraqi put the highest pressure on ISIS.

The Iraq army ran away with their tales between their legs when ISIS came to Mosul. At first, ISIS only planned to go to the prisons and release the inmates like that had done before. They quickly realized that they weren't going to just get the prisons, but the entire city. ISIS was vastly outnumbered in Mosul when they marched in, but the soldiers change into civilian clothes all ran away with the tail between their legs.

Also, Putin did a far better job than the US did in a shorter amount of time. He bombed the hell out of them while the US was just flying a few jets a day - most of which didn't even drop ordinance. Furthermore, the $500 million program to arm moderate Syrians was an utter disaster. Not only did they only find a few dozen 'moderate' Syrians - but the majority of the weapons they delivered ended up in the hands of ISIS anyway. The US would give weapons to people that they thought were 'moderates' but really they were sympathizers with ISIS. The US lost some 1,200 hummers - that's just pathetic. Iraq will remain one of the ugliest parts of US foreign policy and a total failure by the Obama administration. We don't follow the 'to the victor goes the spoils' like other countries when they fight a war. Not only did we not take the oil, but we lost trillions in the process and now Iraq is even worse now then it was under Saddam - during which the economy was thriving.

he Russians bomb the opposition, the NATO bombs the kurds.

Russia is bombing mostly opposition groups that are fighting against Assad like the FSA. They don't care that much about ISIS because Putin wants Assad to remain in power. The main group that's bombing the Kurds is Turkey, which happens to be a NATO member. The Turks have half decent relations with the Kurds in Iraq but not the Kurds in Syria or Turkey. They view many of the Kurdish organizations like the PKK as terrorist groups.

Get over it and help the people instead of trying to prove how strong you are.

The problem is that the migrants are all coming to Europe. I can understand helping the Syrians out, but Syrian refugees don't make up the majority of migrants coming into Europe. Also, I'm not trying to prove how strong I am or anything of the sorts. All I'm stating is that I wish we didn't have such a weakling as Obama.
whocares
6 Apr 2016 #85
The war in Syria isnt really a civil war. There are foreign agents fighting there funded and aided by Turkey, Saudis, (possibly some from US). They cross borders and are radical scum like ISIS and Al Queda.

Most Syrians supported Assad for quite some time. You can go on youtube and listen to alternative/independant journalists and Syrians what they say.
Forget the retarded Western mainstream propaganda. All they want is another puppet state and create a beachhead to attack Iran.

Putin bombed anyone who opposed Assad. Assad who is the rightful leader of Syria INVITED Russia and I think Iran to aid him.
It is a reaction to a problem.
Polson 5 | 1,768
6 Apr 2016 #86
As far as Polish society though, we've endured far too much throughout our entire history with Russia to not be russophobes. We're always going to be cautious.

Which is totally understandable, of course. Being cautious is fine. Paranoid is not ;)

the collapsing economy caused by Putin invading their main industrial region...

Jon, the previous (pre-Maidan) governement was corrupt, and that was one of the official reasons for the "revolution". Today's government is at least as corrupt, if not more. Is that Putin's fault too?

You must have seen that Panama Papers story. Mr. Poroshenko is on the list of the current world leaders involved in tax evasion.
Is that what Ukrainians really wanted?

You realise we're only at the start of this one? Maybe not...

So? The USSR has collapsed. Poland has changed. It's part of both the EU and NATO now. And as far as I know, the relations (in terms of diplomacy and economics) between Poland and Russia have been good since then. That's what I'm trying to say. There is no reason, in my opinion, to expect any aggression of Poland from Russia. Poland has no significant Russian minority, it has no oil and gas reserves... Russia could not justify such an aggression and would lose most of its allies.

Found in 1.5 seconds on google

Sources? Google is not a valid source, Jon.

Would any country be anything other than very wary indeed about a has-been and would-be superpower who has just invaded and is currently at war with their neighbour and close ally?

As I wrote above, being wary is okay, but being paranoid is not. Because that's when you do the biggest mistakes.

Bizarre and sad to see Putinist apologetics here.

You can repeat that as many times as you want, but it won't make it more accurate.
I'm not a "Putinist apologetics", I just try to have a more distant look on events, which you have a hard time doing, obviously.

Your vision of the Ukraine crisis seems quite simplistic. We're the good guys. Everything is the Russians' fault.

Anyone who isn't anti-Russian isn't a Polish. Its as simple as that.

Yeah, there's nothing better than a common enemy to create a strong sense of identity. It doesn't have to be rational. It rarely is actually.
Crow 155 | 9,030
6 Apr 2016 #87
We already know that Pope Franscis himself said how he count on Russia for protection of Christians worldwide. Look now comment of head of Austrian General Staff Lieutenant-General Othmar Commenda >>>

Austrian armed forces are ready to cooperate with Moscow as "Russia is much closer to Austria than other major world powers," chief of the Austrian General Staff said in Moscow, according to TASS.

source: rt.com/news/

See? Plus, ask yourself why would somebody want to antagonize Polish-Russian relations at a time when Russians nicely eat Polish apples via Serbian re-export and when Putin himself told to his trade minister to fu** off when minister said that apples aren`t Serbian but Polish, that Serbia even don`t have land capacity to produce such enormous quantities of apples. Why now upset Russians? Let them eat apples.

Why antagonize with Russians when they shows respect to most loyal Polish friends and brothers, Hungarians and Serbians. Doing so, Russians shows respect for Polish interests, too. Also, let us don`t forget that before maiden happened in Ukraine, operated POLUKRBAT. With new, pro-Nazi and pro-Anglo leadership, Polish interests in Ukraine were brutally violated. Then, have in mind that China (for sure, with consent of Russia) supported increased Poland`s role within UN institutions. Finally, don`t forget that previous president of UN GA Vuk Jeremic from Serbia, was elected thanks to joint Polish-Russian support.

So, if you ask yourself, who can profit from reviving Polish-Russian antagonism, answer is simple- Anglos.
pweeg3
6 Apr 2016 #88
Sources? Google is not a valid source, Jon.

Lets save that !!!
TheOther 6 | 3,674
7 Apr 2016 #89
Putins approval ratings at 90%

You believe the Russian media? 90% reminds me of the election results during communist times: 99.9% for the CPSU in the USSR or the SED in the GDR - every freakin' time.
jon357 74 | 21,834
7 Apr 2016 #90
Jon, the previous (pre-Maidan) governement was corrupt,

And Russia isn't? Russia is one of the most corrupt states in the world, and the circles around Putain are extremely corrupt and proven beyond any doubt to be so. They are also murderous, as the poisoning of Aleksander Litvinienko in Londan and the unnatural and untimely deaths of so many of his pponents proves.

BTW, when you say "the previous (pre-Maidan) governement was corrupt", one presumes you mean the the previous (pre-Maidan) Putinist puppet regime.....

Mr. Poroshenko is on the list of the current world leaders involved in tax evasion.

And so is a huge chunk of the dicrator Putain's gang.

Is that what Ukrainians really wanted?

Up to them. Russia in general and Putin in particular are not the policemen of Ukraine, fortunately.

Sources? Google is not a valid source, Jon.

That's a classic - one of the most meretriciously inane comments to appear on this forum in a decade!

Polson, you do realise that Google is a search engine, don't you?Meaning they don't actually produce the websites (like this one) that come up on the search engine. Including the ones quoted that demolished your point...

Would you also suggest that a public library isn't "a valid source" or that the phone book isn't "a vaild source".

And yes, you are very much a Putin apologist, having defended him to the best of your (evidently limited "Google is not a valid source"!!!) ability on this thread and elsewhere.

But it doesn't wash. People are by and large intelligent and sensible enough (providing they don't say stuff like Google is not a valid source) to cut through the propaganda. And here in Poland, quite simply, nobody believes it...


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