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Poland to end state funding for IVF treatment


Chemikiem
3 Dec 2015 #1
The new government are claiming IVF is too expensive and plan to end state funding only two years after it was brought in.
So far 3000 children have been born under the state programme, and 17,000 are currently undergoing treatment.

theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/poland-end-state-funding-ivf-treatment

I think this is a terrible shame for those couples wanting children and who can't have them naturally. The cost of private treatment is going to be prohibitive to the average Polish couple, and for many, the state programme was likely the only chance they had to have a family.
Polsyr 6 | 769
3 Dec 2015 #2
too expensive

Meaning it doesn't please a certain "religious" figure that runs a certain "media outlet".
terri 1 | 1,665
3 Dec 2015 #3
Strange, but that 'media outlet' could pay for all the IVF treatment for every couple out of their small change...(think about it).
Polsyr 6 | 769
3 Dec 2015 #4
but that 'media outlet' could pay for all the IVF treatment for every couple out of their small change

Or with one of their Maybachs :)
jon357 67 | 16,902
3 Dec 2015 #5
Very sad for people who are trying to start families and can't afford to go private.

Let's hope the decision is reversed at the earliest opportunity.
mafketis 25 | 9,316
3 Dec 2015 #6
The cost of private treatment is going to be prohibitive to the average Polish couple, and for many, the state programme was likely the only chance they had to have a family.

The problem is that parenthood is a negative right - if you can become parents the old-fashioned way no one can stop you. But i also means that people have no special moral right to coerce money from others to help them become parents.

Some people have real moral problems with IVF and I don't think they're right, but I also don't think they should be forced to support it through their tax money. It's sad for the people who want and can't afford IVF but it's a reasonable position imho.
terri 1 | 1,665
3 Dec 2015 #7
I understand the above argument, however, please consider this.
If you smoke or are a heavy drinker and have problems relating to this, why should others pay towards the health care system to make you better?
Roger5 1 | 1,457
3 Dec 2015 #8
If you smoke or are a heavy drinker and have problems relating to this, why should others pay towards the health care system to make you better?

That argument would include people who get injured doing sport, or those who drive. After all, there's public transport, right? I don't know the numbers for Poland, but UK smokers cost the National Health Service 2bn GBP a year, and they pay 9bn in tobacco tax.
OP Chemikiem
3 Dec 2015 #9
Let's hope the decision is reversed at the earliest opportunity.

It would be nice to think it would be, but with this new government I think not.

I also don't think they should be forced to support it through their tax money.

I can see your point, but I have to agree with Terri and Rogers' posts.
You cannot randomly decide which aspects of the healthcare system your taxes should go to, and it's the same in the UK.
Of course it is expensive, but now the option of having a family for many will be taken away from them.
Very, very sad.
mafketis 25 | 9,316
3 Dec 2015 #10
I don't know the numbers for Poland, but UK smokers cost the National Health Service 2bn GBP a year, and they pay 9bn in tobacco tax.

Yeah, I don't like tobacco but tobacco taxes do more than pay for associated health costs.

Also there's an element of elective vs non-elective medical care. It's hard to see IVF as anything but elective and given the controversies I think not funding it by the state is reasonable until a consensus is formed on its ethical status (this is not necessarily my preference but a position a reasonable person can have).
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Dec 2015 #11
Merged: Sneaky PO oufoxed over in vitro

In yet another attempt to sneak something through before leaving office (probably as obedient lackeys of foreign pharmaceutical concerns) the Prime Offenders though they were pulling a fast one by extending their state-funded testube-baby programme to 2019. Fortunately, health min. Konstanty Radziwiłł, got wind of it and announced the programme will run only until mid-2016 since there are more pressing health problems for the limited budget to finance.

One wonders whether the Platfusy will go cry-babying to the TK they control to have Radziwill's move declared "unconstitutional".
smurf 39 | 1,981
9 Dec 2015 #12
the Prime Offenders though they were pulling a fast one by extending their state-funded testube-baby programme to 2019

Can still do it privately though so everyone's a winner..........especially doctors.

I don't understand the hatred towards IVF, it can't be such nonsense like every sperm is sacred coz then you'd never wank. And we know that's not true.
Harry
9 Dec 2015 #13
Can still do it privately though so everyone's a winner..........especially doctors.

Much like abortions really.
Crow 147 | 9,295
9 Dec 2015 #14
I think this is a terrible shame

shame
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Dec 2015 #15
sperm is sacred

Back to school biology! A sperm is not an embryo!
Ironside 50 | 11,036
9 Dec 2015 #16
Or with one of their Maybachs :)

or with your money you MADE selling drags.

There awans a significant muslim population somewhere that can repopulate poland since pis doesnt want to help :)

We can always f you see if that helps.
smurf 39 | 1,981
9 Dec 2015 #17
A sperm is not an embryo!

Really? You don't say.
Why though the hatred for state-paid IVF?

It won't stop IVF, just get a bank load of pay out of your own pocket. All this does is stop the working class from breeding. And I though PiS were a party for the poor.

Ha!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
9 Dec 2015 #18
And I though PiS were a party for the poor.

Ha indeed!

It's rather funny because it shows that they've cancelled it out of spite and not for any real ideological reasons.
Kennyboy 1 | 44
10 Dec 2015 #19
So state funding of IVF is to be stopped, have they thought of the obvious option ''adoption'', how many orphans in Poland or children permanently removed from their parents for various reasons. I know the child would not be theirs genetically but surely it would be a win/win, the couple get a child to care for and the orphanage costs would reduce, just an idea or am I missing something.
OP Chemikiem
10 Dec 2015 #20
It won't stop IVF, just get a bank load of pay out of your own pocket

Exactly, and for the average Polish couple wanting children, it may well be out of their reach.
For those who are better off, it will probably put them in debt for years.

have they thought of the obvious option ''adoption'',

I'm sure childless couples aren't dim Kenny! But given the choice ( until funding stops ), of course couples would probably prefer to have a child that is genetically theirs. If there is no other option, some couples may indeed choose adoption, but shouldn't they have the right to have a child that is theirs genetically? Most other European countries have state funded IVF treatment.

surely it would be a win/win,

But adoption isn't what everyone wants. In theory it sounds like an ideal solution, but for some maybe the idea of bringing up a child that isn't genetically theirs isn't acceptable.

I could be wrong, but to me this is the sort of comment that someone who doesn't have children makes.

It also must be particularly hard for the 17, 000 currently undergoing treatment. If the cut off point is the middle of next year, then they must be under a lot of pressure to conceive before their time runs out.
Roger5 1 | 1,457
10 Dec 2015 #21
just get a bank load or pay out of your own pocket

A friend of mine paid the basic 20,000 PLN per treatment (plus drugs, accommodation, etc.) before a successful pregnancy after four attempts. She knows a couple who tried eleven times. That adds up to serious money.
smurf 39 | 1,981
10 Dec 2015 #22
It's rather funny because it shows that they've cancelled it out of spite and not for any real ideological reasons.

Indeed

If there is no other option, some couples may indeed choose adoption, but shouldn't they have the right to have a child that is theirs genetically?

That's important. I grew up with adopted kids back in Ireland, they were from an Eastern European country and they all ended up involved in crime. If you don't know the genes of the parents then I'd be very, very reluctant to adopt. I know that sounds harsh and it's not the child's fault they genes they inherit. Surrogacy would be a better option as far as I'm concerned if IVF fails.

A friend of mine paid the basic 20,000

Ouch, but I'd be scouting around, surely some of those more eastern countries have it cheaper?

Y'know it's like gay civil right & drug prohibition, eventually they'll be legalised every where and our children/grandchildren will laugh at us for being so backward.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Dec 2015 #23
for being so backward.

...or seeing the light in good time before all of society started unravelling and gradually sank into a permissive, libertine "anything goes" bog from which there is no return.
smurf 39 | 1,981
10 Dec 2015 #24
wtf are you jabbering on about?
Speak properly will ya.

Nothing progressive comes from being conservative.BAc
If 'men' like you ruled the world, we'd have never had forward thinkers like Galileo, Copernicus, Newton. We'd have never had Kant or Hegel or Heidegger. Or artists like Picasso or di Vinci or Bacon to name a few.

We'd still be throwing out sh!t out our windows and wonder why our kids died of typhoid.

Let's live your way, sure why not. Let's never learn nothing new, let's follow the teachings of unproven books and let us take as gospel the word of the powerful.

Pfft, you're on the losing side of history Polly and you'll come to realise it eventually. I hope by then it's too late though.

To anyone joining this discussion, please keep to the subject of the thread title.
milky 13 | 1,657
10 Dec 2015 #25
Let's never learn nothing new, let's follow the teachings of unproven books and let us take as gospel the word of the powerful.

I think that may be the motto of the new Polish redneck government.
Kennyboy 1 | 44
11 Dec 2015 #26
Chemikiem, I agree with everything from your earlier post (20) apart from one thing, I have 5 sons, that said I do agree with you, Yes if given a choice most couples would want a child that is genetically theirs, I was just thinking of an alternative, I cannot even begin to imagine the pain and heartache these couples must feel almost to the point of consuming them.

You mention that currently 17,000 couples are undergoing treatment, for the government to give a cut off date makes me feel it was simply done out of badness and like you say, the pressure they must be under is immense to say the least.

Interesting thought, any members of the government currently undergoing IVF? law of averages says there's maybe 1.
OP Chemikiem
11 Dec 2015 #27
I have 5 sons,

I got that badly wrong then! Sorry Kenny, I wrongly took your adoption comments to be a bit flippant, but you obviously didn't mean them in the way I thought you did.

for the government to give a cut off date makes me feel it was simply done out of badness

I suppose it's easy for them to go down the route of 'it's too expensive', but when they were in opposition, they opposed state funding of IVF on religious grounds which was backed by the Catholic church. You can make your own mind up on that one!

any members of the government currently undergoing IVF?

No idea on that one, but let's face it, government members will be able to afford to have private treatment, unlike the majority of Polish couples who have now had their hopes and dreams of having a family dashed.
Borsukrates 5 | 131
11 Dec 2015 #28
State funding of religion in schools costs approximately 4x more than In Vitro.

Instead PiS will promote so-called "naprotechnology", which is a fancy word for analyzing a woman's sludge, diagnostics and observation of fertility cycle. There are no large scale studies of its effectiveness. The important thing is, Church approves.

Konstanty Radziwiłł, Minister of Health from PiS, doesn't like things like natural medicine (herbal), homeopathy and physiotherapy (exercise).



delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
11 Dec 2015 #29
Instead PiS will promote so-called "naprotechnology", which is a fancy word for analyzing a woman's sludge, diagnostics and observation of fertility cycle.

It's just another example of cruelty towards the less fortunate, something that PiS revel in.
Ironside 50 | 11,036
11 Dec 2015 #30
Yeah those poor downtrodden people who cannot afford10 zl for TV tax need to have their IVF treatment founded by the state in order for them to procreate and have many children in order to get 500 zl form PiS or they would if not for PiS sadistic streak.


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