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Die Welt-Poland and Germany are the economic driving force of Europe


Babinich 1 | 455
16 Jan 2011 #91
Proud to say Ive made it 34 years without a credit card,Im by no means rolling in money but I own my home outright so although I do worry a bit about this down turn Im able to ride it out,even being out of work temporarily.

Convex's reply:

Amen to that. That kind of follows the German/Polish business mindset of careful expansion and paying your own way. The consumer mindset on the other hand....

I cannot disagree more... Credit is a powerful tool when used intelligently.

When will the madness end?
jackhbarnes.com/2011/01/15/slovakia-hates-being-in-a-greek-tragedy

It's like the movie A Clockwork Orange. Alex, our protagonist, is altered against his will by statists 'who know better'.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Benjamin Franklin

BB,

When will Germany become Germany?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
16 Jan 2011 #92
When will the madness end?

Poland is still massively benefiting from the E.U.
And you will probably be happy to know that the banks are giving credit, not so easy to get mortgages but small credit it easy enough.
Babinich 1 | 455
16 Jan 2011 #93
Who's subsidizing that credit?
z_darius 14 | 3,968
16 Jan 2011 #94
So the question is, how would the banks survive if everyone was like me?
my only debt is my mortgage

Mortgage is a substantial kind of debt. You probably know how much of your payment goes to the bank's profit.

But even without the mortgages, banks have other, even more attractive options. They mortgage entire generations by financing various wars around the world.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,650
16 Jan 2011 #95
People tend to believe wars make money but the facts are, during world war one, the US Citizen had to subsidize the war by buying war bonds. They cause massive amounts of debt, and for what? Same thing could be accomplished with time and no war.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
16 Jan 2011 #96
People tend to believe wars make money but the facts are, during world war one, the US Citizen had to subsidize the war by buying war bonds.

Isn't that exactly what I said?
PlasticPole 7 | 2,650
16 Jan 2011 #97
You didn't mention the myth that wars make money. How many times have war mongers used that line to sell their war when it's clearly not true.

Sure there might have been a technology boom around world war two when the US entered the war but they could have found a better excuse for a boom, imo, instead of saying "world war two ended the great depression." Ludicrous!
z_darius 14 | 3,968
16 Jan 2011 #98
You didn't mention the myth that wars make money. How many times have war mongers used that line to sell their war when it's clearly not true.

I offered a response to the question about the ways banks make money. Wars are some of the most lucrative money making opportunities for banks and that is no secret. Ordinary people pay for that war mortgage.

But we all know that some wars did produce profit for most in some countries, for instance ww2 was a boom time for the US. But even now, I haven't heard about Blackwater or Haliburton going bankrupt. They have pigged out on Iraq.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,650
16 Jan 2011 #99
for instance ww2 was a boom time for the US.

There's no doubt money was made but it could have been made in a better way. The ends do not justify the means.

Wars are some of the most lucrative money making opportunities for banks and that is no secret.

Banks do loan money for wars, but the war has to exist before the bank can do this...
z_darius 14 | 3,968
16 Jan 2011 #100
There's no doubt money was made but it could have been made in a better way. The ends do not justify the means.

Perhaps it could have. But nobody found a better way in the preceding decade and banks (including some American and British ones) were eager to help Hitler with his search for "Lebensraum".

It would be also nice if you stopped suggesting I'm justifying wars, I'm not. I'm just just describing reality.

Banks do loan money for wars, but the war has to exist before the bank can do this...

Similarly, banks have to exists before you can borrow money from them to conduct a war. Before banks took this "honorable" role in helping to kill millions around the world there were still quasi loans (the vassal system, direct taxation etc). In the end the ordinary people are screwed, either because they are the pawns who are ordered to kill and who get killed. In modern times those who do not get killed pay up to the banks through their taxes. Banks do great and no matter what, they prosper. Even without wars they'll do fine, no matter how shhitty their business is. After all banks can always count of millions of slaves to bail them out. The "bailouts" are a euphemism for corporate communism which is rampant in many countries, notably in the US.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,650
16 Jan 2011 #101
banks (including some American and British ones)

It's true banks are always eager to make loans but someone has to ask for the loan first. Maybe Hitler met all the qualifications and the banks didn't have an excuse to say no to his applications?

It would be also nice if you stopped suggesting I'm justifying wars

Oh, no, I don't think you are justifying them at all. Sorry if I gave that impression. The banks, though, have a limited role. They do have one, but someone has to fill out an application before a loan can be made, so it's a shared responsibility. Banks should say no more often, though.

Similarly, banks have to exists before you can borrow money from them to conduct a war.

Unfortunately, banks do make it easier to finance the war. You also have governments dipping into various public funds and selling war bonds to finance. If govt is convinced a war is necessary, they will do anything to have that war.
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
16 Jan 2011 #102
"An average Chinese wage of $0.57 per hour -- or $104 per month -- is about 3 percent of the average U.S."

Yes,but whats the cost of living in China compared to the US,thats the important question,not how much is being made. and,$104,really 3% of avarage us wage,really?

No country that treats its own people like China has a chance to survive in the long run.

Lol,dont you believe it mate,China has treated its "people" like trash for thousands of years,untill the communists there was no history of the people rising up.....I hate to say it,but as a people they do seem on the whole a servile bunch.

A country that still has concentration camps for its political opponents

er,gitmo....maybe best as an American if you didnt bring up extra judicial imprisonment....
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,678
16 Jan 2011 #103
China is expected to suffer their own bubble-crash in the next year or so..

china-economics-blog.blogspot.com/2010/01/economic-crash-in-china-coming-soon.html
csmonitor.com/Commentary/Global-Viewpoint/2010/0121/China-the-world-s-next-great-economic-crash
dailyreckoning.com/3-arguments-for-chinas-looming-economic-crash/
articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/ChinasEconomyIsOutOfControl.aspx
nytimes.com/2010/01/08/business/global/08chanos.html

....and so on.

I really fear for the german export economy when that happens.
Europe will suffer too....and the US.
Probably the moment we think we are out of the worst...
guesswho 4 | 1,289
16 Jan 2011 #104
Yes,but whats the cost of living in China compared to the US,thats the important question,not how much is being made. and,$104,really 3% of avarage us wage,really?

It probably went up a little in the meantime but still, the Chinese people are being enslaved by their own government having to work for peanuts comparing with most of other countries.

Lol,dont you believe it mate,China has treated its "people" like trash for thousands of years,untill the communists there was no history of the people rising up.....I hate to say it,but as a people they do seem on the whole a servile bunch.

Yep, but in the past few thousand years China wasn't open to the whole wide world like it is now and Chinese people couldn't compare their miserable lives with the rest of the world.

er,gitmo....maybe best as an American if you didnt bring up extra judicial imprisonment....

falundafa.org/czech/data/tabory/bnr_sutiatun_en.pdf

(btw. do you say mate even to the females in the UK?)

As far as Gitmo, we don't need to even start discussing it because I openly admit that I despise Muslims for being religious fanatics and for killing innocent people all around the world in the name of Allah. (open another thread if you want to discuss about it).

China is expected to suffer their own bubble-crash in the next year or so..

yep, the internet is full of links indicating bad times for the Chinese economy.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,678
16 Jan 2011 #105
Every good thing has to end some time...

Even as I had thought that would happen alot later. Because the "downside" of the chinese boom is the growing of a middle class. And that means rising of living standards, rising of wages, rising confidence of the people.

Firms won't relocate to China so easily anymore if they have to pay similiar wages as at home...

China will get all these "problems" we western countries have to cope with too. All these "advantages" of the chinese economy...being able to produce masses of cheap thingies because the labor force are not much better treated than slaves will vanish...

Then China will have to fight on the world market with more even weapons, time for the West to regain grounds.

But it seems the growth of the last years was to much...not healthy either...
guesswho 4 | 1,289
16 Jan 2011 #106
Firms won't relocate to China so easily anymore if they have to pay similiar wages as at home...

exactly

China will get all these "problems" we western countries have to cope with too.

the only difference is that we have the potential and the know how to solve our problems sooner or later and for the Chinese it's all new. Just look at all these Lotto millionaires, many of them are spending their money as quick as they "got" it.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,678
16 Jan 2011 #107
the only difference is that we have the potential and the know how to solve our problems sooner or later and for the Chinese it's all new

Yes, it's a crash course we needed a century for...but then, they can now look at the blue print and maybe avoid some of the errors we made.

Another point will be the wish for more democracy of a growing middle class/more self conscious labor force. That will change the China's face alot.

Also right now the still dictatorial communist party keeps all these diversive ethnicities together by force as the Sovietunion once did.
This too will become more problematic with time...as ethnic hostilities exist, but are now swept under the rug and forcefully kept low.

I honestly can't envision a democratic China right now, the country is to huge and to diverse...it always needed and had only a strong central government ruling.

But something is going to change big time because the easy math the communists make that their system can survive even with a thriving stone age capitalism won't work for long in my opinion.

They can't have their cake and eat it!

China will become alot more restless, maybe even break up. The image of the servile, always smiling, obedient slave won't hold up any more. ;)
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
16 Jan 2011 #108
(btw. do you say mate even to the females in the UK?)

yes,if you are freindly with each other...actually,around where I am we tend to call everyone of the opposite gender "love" (ie,men to women,women to men) and the slightly older generation still call people flower or petel,regardless of gender :) I think its quite sweet but I know even people from a hundred miles away,women,can take offence at being called "love",silly,but,hey,so its easier to say mate :)
guesswho 4 | 1,289
16 Jan 2011 #109
Another point will be the wish for more democracy of a growing middle class/more self conscious labor force. That will change the China's face alot.

oh yeah, it will change their face a lot but it will also make it way less attractive for the western investors because the more money the average Chinese will make, the less attractive their labor market will be.

But something is going to change big time because the easy math the communist make that their system can survive even with a thriving stone age capitalism won't work for long in my opinion.

fully agree with you here.

China will become alot more restless, maybe even break up.

we know some examples, the SU and the whole eastern block.

yes,if you are freindly with each other.

sweet, thanks for explaining it to me.
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
16 Jan 2011 #110
I openly admit that I despise Muslims for being religious fanatics and for killing innocent people all around the world in the name of Allah.

Surely you mean " I despise THE muslims who are religious fanatics"....dont know how many muslims you've met but all the ones I know are about as fanatical as ,well,Ive drunk pints with plenty of them....and,cant Remember Cassius Clay or Cat stevens murdering anyone,not literaly anyway :)

If I applied your rules Id hate all Catholics because Ive been in an IRA bombing......
guesswho 4 | 1,289
16 Jan 2011 #111
I know are about as fanatical as ,well,Ive drunk pints with plenty of them..

OK, I've never met that type yet, :-)

If I applied your rules Id hate all Catholics because Ive been in an IRA bombing......

where do you live, in N.Ireland?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
16 Jan 2011 #112
Who's subsidizing that credit?

The banks are giving it.
I was asked the other day, by the bank manager, if I wanted to invest in a money lending company, I reclined.

Interesting post.

I really fear for the german export economy when that happens.
Europe will suffer too....and the US.

I don't follow this BB, Germany hardly exports to China?
Or do you mean German products made in China and exported from there?

Firms won't relocate to China so easily anymore if they have to pay similiar wages as at home...

It'll be a while yet and if the boom you are talking about happens, then it will be cheaper again, no?
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
16 Jan 2011 #113
where do you live, in N.Ireland?

No,UK mainland,Yorkshire....those bombs didnt only go off in Belfast you know,so you'll excuse some of us over here who didnt shed too many tears for Ted Kenedy last year.....

Thankfully no one died in the bombing I got caught up in,there hadnt been a warning though so that was pure luck, but you see my point,the only people who set out to blow up me and the young baby I had with me at the time were Catholics,so I tend to feel the same way re the whole muslim thing. Why tar everyone with the same brush,kinda like calling all GIs baby killers just because of My Lai.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,678
16 Jan 2011 #114
I don't follow this BB, Germany hardly exports to China?

Depends on the sector...take german cars for examples. The Chinese are hot about them. More than the half of all car trade is done with China right now, a huge factor for the whole german economy.

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6399683,00.html

Thanks to orders from China, the German electronics sector posted profits of around 12 percent. Car manufacturers doubled their sales and chemicals giants Bayer and BASF had nothing to complain about either.

China is now the biggest exporter into Germany and its biggest trading partner outside of the EU. Germany is China's biggest European investor....

Four out of five luxury cars sold in China are German. Sales of premium cars are expected to double by 2015. Not surprisingly, BMW, Daimler and Audi are already planning to expand their activities in China....

It'll be a while yet and if the boom you are talking about happens, then it will be cheaper again, no?

Don't think so...when the production costs rise generally things won't stay as cheap as they are anymore.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
16 Jan 2011 #115
Depends on the sector...take german cars for examples. The Chinese are hot about them. More than the half of all car trade is done with China right now, a huge factor for the whole economy.

I didn't realise.

2006 Top 15 Countries for German Exports in 2005

1. France ... US$99 billion (10.2% of total German exports)
2. U.S. ... $85.5 billion (8.8%)
3. U.K. ... $76.7 billion (7.9%)
4. Italy ... $67 billion (6.9%)
5. Netherlands ... $59.2 billion (6.1%)
6. Belgium ... $54.4 billion (5.6%)
7. Austria ... $52.4 billion (5.4%)
8. Spain ... $49.5 billion (5.1%)
9. Switzerland ... $36.9 billion (3.8%)
10. China ... $31.1 billion (3.2%)
11. Poland ... $25.3 billion (2.6%)
12. Czech Republic ... $23.3 billion (2.4%)
13. Sweden ... $21.4 billion (2.2%)
14. Russia ... $19.4 billion (2.0%)
15. Japan ... $16.5 billion (1.7%)

Where's Poland in imports in this one? :

Germany's Top Trading Partners and Export Goods

Edit*
I hate taking data from different sites, they might not even be talking about the same thing, is there a history of Germany's export/import partners somewhere?
guesswho 4 | 1,289
16 Jan 2011 #116
No,UK mainland,Yorkshire....those bombs didnt only go off in Belfast you know,so you'll excuse some of us over here who didnt shed too many tears for Ted Kenedy last year.....

Yep, generalizing is never good but you have to admit that the chance to meet an violent Catholic, ready to blow up himself and kill hundreds or even thousands of innocent people is way smaller than meeting a Muslim who'll be ready to do it.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
16 Jan 2011 #117
During the IRA bombings in the U.K. that is almost exactly what happened, only they didn't blow themselves up.

And if you want to talk about percentages, how many bombs were set off or attempted to be set off in the U.K. by Muslims? 3? and how many by Catholics? (including Guy Fawkes and the like)? I don't know but I'd guess dozens.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
16 Jan 2011 #118
OK, that kinda explains the anti Catholic sentiment of quite a few Brits on PF.
I still have more sympathy for the Catholics being a Baptist myself.

Btw. Do you guys have Baptists in the UK?
PlasticPole 7 | 2,650
16 Jan 2011 #119
China is expected to suffer their own bubble-crash in the next year or so..

I just heard an expert say there will be another crash in the US around September of this year when the mortgages reset. Might require another bailout from Uncle Sam. This aint over by a long shot. By 2013, unemployment could go as high as 15% in US.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
16 Jan 2011 #120
I just heard an expert say there will be another crash in the US around September of this year when the mortgages reset.

you can't resist to grab any chance you get to talk about your biggest enemy's problems, can you? lol
I mean, it's so obvious, don't even try to deny it PP.


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