Does democratic Poland guarantee it's LGBT citizens respect for human and civil rights?

You can be homosexual and be a priest, so I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. Haven't you followed anything that the Pope has been teaching?

What about Mardi Gras and what about some holiday resorts in the Med, or Saturday night in Chester, England when girls are literally staggering around the streets in mini skirts and no knickers??? Public indecency is not a gay issue Adrian, it's a public disorder issue and needs to be treated as such. Nobody should be going around in public displaying their bits and pieces (ooh missus!).

I think he's never encountered that highly visible beast, the British Tourist.

of course disorderly conduct can be found among homos like among heteros. Probably a very tiny minority of gays "misbehave" while in the parade but the majority of people attending said parades do behave themselves but of course the media report on the "freaks" and not on the huge majority.

I've so far never been to any such parade but as I used to live right in Centrum and had clear view on Marszałkowska, I could watch them every year from my place when they were taking Marszałlkowska down to Pl. Konstitucji (over the past 2 or 3 years, they have headed north towards Pl. Bankowy instead). When I could watch from my windows, I never saw anything "freaky".

I bet Adrian has never seen Warsaw's Equality (name for the past few years) Parade so instead of copying-pasting ANY random pics taken just anywhere, he should have a look at real thing.

It's not that they don't have the balls - it's that they care about their jobs. Its harder and harder for police to do their work because they constantly have to worry about their actions resulting in some protest, termination, or even worse a civil suit. Like I said, the police already have a huge issue policing black areas because every time a black guy disobeys a police order and gets wrestled to the ground, tazed, or shot because he didn't drop his weapon, the black community cries uncle and people get fired. Even our police chief recently got fired even though he absolutely nothing to do with the specific case that forgot him fired - I forget which one it is it's every weekend where some black dude gets shot by the cops and the media cries but few discuss that he had a gun or knife and charged the police or refused to drop the weapon. If a cop arrested a gay dude for wearing leather pants with the butt cheeks cut out or walking around in a thong, which happens quite frequently in the Boys Town neighborhood of Chicago, you can bet there'd be a huge demonstration of gay dudes saying that cops are discriminating. This is one of those unspoken rules of police - kind of like not pulling over drivers who don't stop at stop lights for 3 seconds on the west side or hassling cab drivers who carried pistols in their car (prior to the concealed carry laws thankfully being passed at last).


Exactly, but people do at gay pride parades because they have no respect for families and children that live in that area. Again, it's not the majority of the people that attend these, but rather a significant minority.


No you can't - not a Roman Catholic priest because you have to take a vow of celibacy and chastity. Also, the new pope answers questions through questions. When asked should gay men become priests he stated who am I to judge. That doesn't sound like a yes or a no to me. It's a political answer meant to not further alienate the church, which I'm happy with. I don't care if gays attend church and quite frankly I hope they do as I believe spirituality is good for everyone. However, becoming a priest while having a gay lover - no, because that goes against tradition and vows of celibacy and chastity.


Actually I have as I travel a lot both for work and for fun. Just go to any foreign country and you'll see them eating and drinking at a British Pub. I couldn't believe how many there were especially at Ibiza - I'd say that's where I saw the highest concentration.

The topic of this forum is 'Does democratic Poland guaruntee it's LGBT citizens respect for human and civil rights?' I'd say yes - the law guarantees it. In practice though, many Poles, arguably the majority, are not accepting of gays. They tolerate them, but they don't accept them. Catholic tradition which is very strong in Poland has a lot to do with this. For example, the majority support partnerships but not marriage.

cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2001/K_049_01.PDF

se.pl/wiadomosci/polska/sondaz-super-expessu-o-zwiazkach-partnerskich-polacy-przeciw-mazenstwom-homo_304814.htmlPolacy chcą co prawda uregulować prawnie związki partnerskie, ale wypowiadają się zdecydowanie przeciw legalizacji małżeństw homoseksualnych i absolutnie nie zgadzają, by geje lub lesbijki mieli prawo do adopcji dzieci.

Most Poles would not be accepting of a gay/lesbian as a boss, teacher, MP, coworker, nanny, with highest opposition against a gay/lesbian teacher or priest

cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2005/K_127_05.PDF

69% of Poles according to this source oppose gay marraige and gay adoption.
news24.com/World/News/Catholic-Poland-says-no-to-gay-marriage-20130211

God made Adam and Eve... not Adam and Steve..


I pointed to those specifically in Warsaw:

nytimes.com/2010/07/18/world/europe/18poland.html

bestgaytravelguide.com/2010/07/18/euro-pride-in-warsaw-poland-this-year.aspx
shutterstock.com/pic-57487249/stock-photo-warsaw-july-gay-europride-in-poland-the-first-ever -europride-gay-parade-in-this-part-of.html

These are all in Warsaw Poland... and all these imagines show intimacy in public and half naked dude parading around in speedos... So yes, these are obscene and these participants have no regard for families and children in the area that don't want to sea a half naked man marching down the street.

All disgusting images - hetero couples do not do this kind of stuff in public...

@Adrian: Have you seen any Warsaw (or any other city)'s parade in REAL? Nope, since you have to rely on random internet pictures! Like said, every year, I could watch parade from my windows and this year I may even go. In Warsaw, the freaks attending such parade can be counted on one's fingers but of course the media focuse on them rather than on the huge majority of people attending who are hetero people concerned about equal rights and justice for all....

Trust me, PERSONAL experience is worth billion times more what you can find on the net...

@Adrian: these pictures may be real but they only concern a tiny minority of parade attendants. We all know that the media focuse on the "sensational". Most attendants may they be gay or hereo are just "middle of the road" and not interesting for the media. It is like that for anything, media report on the UNusual and that is why only pictures of a few freaks are taken and shown

Like I've said above, yes I have - in Chicago and it was only because I happen to be going to an important meeting in downtown and was late thanks to a bunch of barely dressed men parading down the street.

You are right - the people who stand on the sides tend be more normal - with that I agree. They may wear a rainbow flag or a wig or something but for the most part look pretty normal and are not exposing their body parts. However, the people participate in the parade - that's a totally different story. The people marching were half naked, wearing only speedos, were the gay leather fetishists with leather chokers, suspenders and butt cheeks cut out of leather pants. Granted I wasn't there long, maybe 10 minutes before I was able to pull a u-turn, but I seen enough to last me a life time. For the portion that I saw, yes, the majority of the marchers were dressed in a manner more suitable for the privacy of a bedroom - not the middle of the city. Let's just put it this way - it certainly wasn't PG rated. You don't see people on a saint patrick's day parade wearing speedos and playing bag pipes. You don't see poles on the may 3rd parade dressed in speedos and leather suspenders with a$$less chaps.. no because we have a sense of decency and aren't exhibitionists

may3parade.org/en/photos/parade2012.html

No obscenities? Here's the gay pride parade in Toronto - naked people with nothing but a metal cage covering their schlong, a$$es hanging out, impersonating sex acts - look how many people let their butt cheeks show for everyone in full view - without any regard if there's children around... and you tell me that these peopel are normal - yes those on the sidelines perhaps but not the ones marching ...

blogwrath.com/gay-issues/what-many-kids-saw-at-torontos-pride-parade-2012/3103

my favorite is the last pictture - And the postal workers union came up with a cryptic message: "We Won't We Won't Shut the F**** Up"

Exactly... gay people can't ever be satisfied - 'we wont ever shut the f*** up' is a good slogan for you guys

See this is exactly what I mean - when cops crack down on public indecency laws the gays cry about it and say they're discriminating :

lifesitenews.com/news/homosexuals-angered-as-cops-crack-down-on-lewdness-and-nudity-at-dallas-gay

The pride parade rules now state: "In accordance with the city of Dallas public nudity ordinance, parade participants must not expose genitalia, buttocks, or female breasts."

Michael Doughman, executive director of the Tavern Guild, which organizes the parade, said, "police [have] looked the other way for years and years and years, but public lewdness and nudity in public is not going to continue to be tolerated."

POINT PROVEN!

We don't feel respected when we are called homophobes.
We prefer to be called "straight".
Thank you in advance for respecting us.

In Warsaw, this is not and has never been so. Out of the some 14,000 attending every year, maybe there are max a few dozens like those in pictures and of course they are the ones media report about (normal since media want "sensational"). I agree that in America (I have lived there), everything is more ... flamboyant and extremist.....

In Warsaw (and mrore generally in Europe), it is more 'middle of the road". For sure, the very few freaky ones should be dealt with all the more as they give bad reputation to whole event.

I agree with you 100% that the huge majority of Poles don't like homosexuals (and many others ...)

To be quite honest, we don't respect you, that's why you're called homophobes.


Sorry, but plenty of straight people are able to live their lives without discussing homosexuality on the internet constantly. Homophobic is what you shall be.

Straight people discuss this because they don't want it in their society. Thankfully, there's some places in Europe left where PC, LGBT, and liberalism have not overrun the society - like Poland and even more so Russia - which totally outlaws pride parades. Yet these people insist on being accepted in areas that clearly don't want them. Get a hint - it's like if your not invited to someone's house you don't just barge in. The majority of Polish people don't want LGBT people to have rights like marriage yet they keep pushing and pushing when there's plenty of other countries that are more than happy to accommodate gay marraige and all that. Why do they insist on making every country accept their ideals, especially if they don't want to?

That is the hallmark of every utopia -- trying to force their brand of "happiness" on everyone else whether they want it or not. Every utopia has failed, be it Marxist, Fascist or earlier attemtps to create the "ideal society". One question no gung-ho PC type can answer properly is: Why do you think your the PC utopia (multi-culti, LGBT, diversity and all that rot!) will not fail like all the rest? They all had one thing in common: forcing their agenda on everyone and penalising or eliminating anyone who dared disagree with it.

They'll probably say because there's still racism, homophobia, or because wealth has not been totally redistributed.

Look at what's going on in Venezuela right now - perfect example of the worst things that Socialism has to offer for a society. People need to carry a backpack full of money just to be able to buy dinner yet the government keeps spending more money on 'gun free zone' signs and 'anti-racism' campaigns.

I think it's a sign of homosexuality myself, but hey. I don't feel the need to discuss homosexuality on a daily (or even weekly) basis - it's a simple non-factor.


You really don't understand Poland, do you? Political correctness exists to a massive degree here.


It's a basic human right.

- 100% agree! Some people are against giving equal rights to people because they have the misfortune to be black, jewish, woman, homo, fat, small, have curly hair or flat feet, etc etc etc and it is wrong! No one should be deprived from basic rights because they happen to be different. Being homosexual is not a choice and homosexuals cannot "change".

Granting same rights to all is called democracy!

Giving equal rights to homosexuals will not even take any rights away from Jonny Reb, from Poloonius, from Adrian, from Levy and all the homophobic gang!

Exactly. I really don't understand what the fuss is about. Who cares what adults do in their private lives? It doesn't affect me, but I do wonder how anyone can claim to be straight if they spend their lives googling pictures of naked men.

@Delph: ABSOLUTELY! I know some (Polish) homosexuals complaining because as couples, they cannot file as such and as a result pay more tax than they would as couples. They also complain that in case, one partner is sick at the hospital, the other won't be allowed to receive info from doctors. I know that it is so for all unmarried couples in Poland but this is wrong.

It seems that homosexuals are the 21st century"s Jews!

Not really and definitely not with PiS. The defense minister has no problem expressing his views on Jews, the politicians have no problem stating that Muslims carry parasites and protozoa and they don't want them, and the government has no problem regularly making xenophobic and homophobic remarks - as well as the common citizenry. If that's PC, then sign me up!


Then they should go to a country where they'll have their 'basic rights'


The fact remains - the government and people have voted and decided - they don't want gay marriage in Poland. We don't want it, too bad.


It will cheapen the definition of marriage - which the government and votes have agreed.

The people and the government have decided that is what they want in their country - they allowed civil unions to appease you but voted against gay marriage, against adoption by gay couples, and banned many other things. That is the decision of the government and the people. If you don't like it, you can move to place more suitable for the things you want instead of trying to undermine and change what the people and government want for their own country.


What about my right as a Catholic to oppose gay marriage?

The fact is, each country has it's own unique laws, customs, and interpretation and implementation of democracy. Part of democracy is voting and electing officials. Through the Democratic process, Poland has decided that they will allow civil union but don't want gay marriage, gay couples to have kids, IVF, etc.

Oh my. I can see that you've got a lot of learning to do. PiS are one of the most politically correct parties out there - if someone associated with them dares to breath a word of something that isn't part of their narrative, then they're cast aside very very quickly.


No problem? No, none at all, except the fact that NATO has gone very cold on Poland.


I can assure you that many citizens do not make xenophobic and homophobic remarks. Perhaps you're keeping the wrong company.


We want basic rights for everyone living in Poland. Poland has a huge tradition of looking after the rights of citizens.


Not really. It was a non-issue during the election campaign.


Sorry, but that's obvious nonsense. If you want something to change, then you work towards changing it.

Exactly - because it is the existing law and most Poles do not care for changing it to accommodate a tiny group. Yet KODists and the tiny LGBT crowd in Poland is unsatisfied with civil unions, which they earlier stated that's all they wanted, and now wants marriage. The majority of Poles and the Polish government aren't giving into their demands and it appears that thankfully the laws will remain unchanged for the foreseeable future. So go to another place that actually cares.


As long as it conforms to their conservative, Roman Catholic, Polish patriotic views... which is totally fine with me. Also yes, the politicians have said many things that wouldn't be considered PC by the West - like the example of Jews and Muslims I cited earlier, which again I am totally fine with and am quite happy to have a defense minister who reads and understands The Protocols.


Obama's recent Europe visit suggests otherwise. Then again, he's all talk with no action. Finally, Poland has realized that they can't rely on other countries to help them - as proven by the example in WW2, so actually I'm glad that this is happening. Poland finally is realizing that it can't rely on NATO as it is highly unlikely they'd do anything to stop a Russian advance.

I fail to see how KOD have anything to do with it.


No, because it simply wasn't an issue that the parties focused on.


Really? You'll think it's totally fine when they seize your land that you were so upset over, because some local politician sees that you aren't present and decides that it'll make a fine place for his friend's new house? Be careful for what you wish for. As you said yourself, it's agricultural land. The ANR can seize it and pay you compensation that they themselves deem appropriate, including the house. I imagine you wouldn't be too happy to get 300,000zł for it, would you?

Those "views" of PiS are populism. The real views of PiS are about power and money - which is exactly why the ANR now have the ability to seize your land and sell it to the Church for a minimal amount.


NATO is about as good as it gets. Russia would trash Poland within days in any conventional war, so the only logical way to defend Poland is to tie German investments up in Poland.

PiS isn't going to seize anyone's lands dude.. not gonna happen. If they did, I would take the 300k zloty because it'd be less of a headache at this point. That's not the point of this topic though.


Exactly, because it's a non-issue for the majority of Poles as well as the government. The majority of people don't see any problem with the existing laws as far as civil unions, gay marraige, etc. are concerned. Only a tiny portion of the population is arguing to have the existing laws changed to be more inclusive, most people don't see any reason for it and don't want it to be changed.

You haven't read the laws, have you? The new agricultural law means that they can nationalise land, hence why some farmers are getting very very upset.


No, because the parties simply didn't want to fight an election on the issue. It's nothing to do with what Poles want, but everything to do with the priorities of the political parties - who don't really reflect ordinary Poles, hence the low turnout.

I've read that land can't be purchased by foreigners anymore - but I don't see how that really would affect me as I am a citizen.

From the forums here I found this - https://polishforums.com/real-estate/poland-new-land-law-legislation-make-77587/

- If unable to find a buyer the government body for land will acquire the land at market value. (likely to be less than current value)

- Any abuse of the law on this will result in land being acquired the government body for land and sold on at market value.
- As land value drops farmers will find it difficult to sell at a price which covers their mortgage/loan.

That's actually good for me - if my land is worth 4 5 mil zloty or whatever and they'd give me even half I'd sell it tomorrow. I don't have any mortgage or loans or anything else on it so it's just sitting there anyway.

Again though, this doesn't have much to do this with this LGBT thread.


Here's a few articles I found from an old election - when this question was pretty important apparently:

thegully.com/essays/gaymundo/051110_poland_election.html

Right-wing candidates, pandering to a traditionally homophobic electorate, openly used insulting terms such as "pederasta" and "pedal." These words, which not too long ago would have been deemed unsuitable to utter in polite company, are now heard in parliamentary debates and even on television.

Radio Maryja dubbed recent developments in Spain and Poland "homosexual terror" "sodomitical unions" and "totalitarianism of sin."

Jaroslaw recently announced that "homosexuals should not be allowed to teach." Earlier he had told the weekly Ozon: "The affirmation of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of civilization. We can't agree to it."

hrw.org/news/2006/06/04/poland-official-homophobia-threatens-basic-freedoms-0

Wierzejski claimed that "the homosexual community's agenda is to propagate deviant attitudes among youth, and - what is worse - they are connected to a world of quasi-criminal character, including pedophilia."

"If deviants start to demonstrate, they should be bashed with a baton."

I'm starting to like these PC Polish Politicians more and more!

Have them start the ball rolling by taking their cash and distributing it to all the homeless they meet on the streets.
To all café leftists and salon do-gooders:
PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!!!

Back on Topic Please.


R U 1 2 ?
How many is some ? How many were born in Poland ?
Should these two people really be guaranteed "special rights" that are in conflict with the Polish culture ?
I think not.
Harold claims to be married but also admits marching in the gay parade and supporting homosexuals.
delph claims to be married and also admits to being gay.
Would that make them both Bi o Sexual, the "B' part of the LGBTLMNOP's while jon is just the "G" in it.

All of them being Jewish, all of them unbelievers, all of them ex-pats to Poland, all of them try to convince the P.F. that the Polish people accept such ilk when I repeatedly told them I knew better because what my Polish Pen Pals were telling me (who they mocked me calling them fictional until Adrian who has family living all over the country of Poland confirmed that the Polish DO NOT accept the LGBTLMOP's which blew their pat answer of, "you don't live here, you have never been here so how would you know", out of the water.

FINALLY we have confirmed that Poland does not welcome it no matter how hard they try to promote it here.
The truth eventually comes out as it did here.
No special treatment as jon put it, "to enrich the culture" when it is doing just the opposite.

So if one person tells you, it must be true? I tell you that Poland is a colony of Malta, and that Texas will be turned into a parking lot very soon... :)

Maybe Poland's population is split 50/50 on that issue if you ask them in private. Do you really know?

"Maybe".........do YOU really know ?
I base my conclusion on every (100%) Polish person that I have been in contact with on the issue.
And I have ask them in private.
What do you base your 50/50 opinion on ? Ex pats.

Accept and support are two drastically different questions. IMO very few Poles would support mistreating LGBT citizens, but would they accept them into their neighborhood? Furthermore would they move into and raise children in a neighborhood known for such behavior?

That's the point, Johnny. I don't know, and neither do you.


How many of the 38 million Poles do you know personally to come to that conclusion, and how far right do these people stand politically? Statistically, you would need a lot more than 100 to come up with a halfway correct result.