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Decoded talks inside Poland's president's plane are released in Internet


frd 7 | 1,399
2 Jun 2010 #31
-

You forgot about:

10:40:59,3 - 10:41:04,6 KUUUUUUURWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
2 Jun 2010 #32
Yeah some joint investigation.

I'm not hearing any complaints from the Polish side.

I think Poland is divided on this.

The people in charge of the Polish investigation seem quite content with it.

Or are you suggesting that these people are lying, even though some of them are appointed by Lech Kaczynski?

There have been many reports how the Russians were pretty much dominating the investigation.

Really? Source, please.

I just think its not right for Russia to hold onto the black boxes.

You can think all you like, but that's how investigations are done. It doesn't make sense for Poland to have the black boxes (nor does she want them) when the rest of the evidence is in Russia.

Anyway, if you believe that Russia has tampered with the boxes, then you additionally believe that some of the highest people in Poland are lying to you. Bear in mind that many of these same people are no fans of the government.

Is it really that hard to believe that this crash was caused by the Polish Air Force? After all, they have quite the history of crashing planes.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Jun 2010 #33
Pilots just don't make those kinds of mistakes when given time to introduce corrective measures. The TAWS was working and serving its alerting function. The transcripts were bound to say that, did anyone expect anything else? Can they prove it? Anyone can put anything on the net these days!

Where were the evasive maneuvers? I don't detect an excessive degree of panic which would imply that their rationality and survival instincts were both very much operative.

There are just too many inconsistencies and changes of story. They didn't fully cooperate with the Polish authorities at all and Szeremet and Rzepa are lying hounds if they say otherwise.

Tampering could easily have taken place.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
2 Jun 2010 #34
Pilots just don't make those kinds of mistakes when given time to introduce corrective measures.

They do though, and this is the problem. Look at this - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_801#Disaster

CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) is much more common than you think.

Where were the evasive maneuvers?

The question is more - why did they go below 100 metres? Why was the autopilot still engaged as they descended below 100?

One thing is certain - they made a mistake.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
2 Jun 2010 #35
Where were the evasive maneuvers?

At 180 mph in thick fog they were not likely to have seen the trees they hit , their first warning of disaster was when the wing hit them , a second later , hitting a bigger tree tore half the wing off and the aircraft turned upside down...there was no chance of any evasive maneuvers...Once half the wing had gone , they were going to crash , nothing they could do to prevent it...!
bimber94 7 | 254
2 Jun 2010 #36
Thick fog? Convenient (this isn't 1930). A lack of communication between pilot and ground control in bad Russian? LOL! Even if you're a purple-skinned neanderthal pilot from the people's republic of watsituya, all pilots and ground control staff worldwide communicate in fluent English, with a minimum IQ of around 130. So the poor communication story is the purest bolloc*s ever. Thick fog my *rse! The fact that Lech Kaczyński was anti-corruption and anti-mafia was totally irrelevant, we are asked to believe.
convex 20 | 3,978
2 Jun 2010 #37
Thick fog? Convenient (this isn't 1930).

I think even more impressive is how they got everyone to corroborate the story about the fog. Especially the Yak pilots, man, sending their own colleagues and friends to their death, harsh. They even sent a plane back to Moscow to back the story!

all pilots and ground control staff worldwide communicate in fluent English

You forgot to mention that they were military controllers.

The fact that Lech Kaczyński was anti-corruption and anti-mafia was totally irrelevant, we are asked to believe.

Why not just wait another couple of months until he lost the elections? Seems kind of pointless to invest a bunch of money in a risky operation to kill him, and perform a massive coverup, just for a guy that was about to go into retirement.

Pilots just don't make those kinds of mistakes when given time to introduce corrective measures. The TAWS was working and serving its alerting function. The transcripts were bound to say that, did anyone expect anything else? Can they prove it? Anyone can put anything on the net these days!

Who sabotaged the Miroslawiec flight?
bimber94 7 | 254
2 Jun 2010 #38
Why not just wait another couple of months until he lost the elections?

Because:
1: He could have won.
2: He and other top quality people were sitting ducks flying over mafia territory.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Jun 2010 #39
Arkadiusz Protasiuk was a much more experienced pilot and wouldn't have flirted with the trees, simple. He spoke near-perfect Russian too so the communication breakdown failure goes out of the window.

Can any pilot come on here and give any rational justification for the mistake? I doubt it! It's not like when a football goes through a keeper's legs (like last night to me, LOL) and he just has no time to react.

Can I see a complete transcript somewhere? The above is just a fob-off and NOT the culmination of extended decoding. It was supposed to be released on 22/04 but they needed more time. They didn't say what for. What I see above could be dispatched quickly.

There has been no in-depth analysis to my knowledge. When will we see a full discussion on this transcript? The world took an interest in his funeral so they can damn well take an interest in rebutting some of the nonsense that has been put out.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
2 Jun 2010 #40
all pilots and ground control staff worldwide communicate in fluent English, with a minimum IQ of around 130.

Yes, for civilian purposes. In case you hadn't noticed - this was a flight operated by the Polish Air Force, hence military.

Thick fog my *rse!

Obviously the Yak crew were lying, and obviously the Russians turned back because...well...erm...

The fact that Lech Kaczyński was anti-corruption and anti-mafia was totally irrelevant, we are asked to believe.

Really? That would be why Lech Kaczynski appointed many political stooges to important positions?

Arkadiusz Protasiuk was a much more experienced pilot and wouldn't have flirted with the trees, simple.

Why is CFIT such a common problem then, among pilots with much more experience than him?

Can any pilot come on here and give any rational justification for the mistake?

Pride? Institutional failings within the Polish Air Force? A simple cock up? Many reasons - it wouldn't be the first time that a very experienced pilot has put the plane into the ground.

Have a look at this Seanus - dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_pilot-error-no-1-reason-behind-plane-crashes-50-year-data-shows_1387357

A study of accident data suggests pilot error is primarily responsible for plane crashes, most of which happen during the approach and landing phase of an aircraft.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022

also shows you a very notable example of where experienced pilots got it wrong.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Jun 2010 #41
Delph, never heard of a decoy? Advance planning needn't be so great to create red herrings like that. The only thing that is obvious is that the lights were tampered with.

He spoke Russian. That is documented and my wife's boss can vouch for that as he was a friend of her friend.

Those 'stooges' were a thorn in the side of international bankers. You are a smart guy, Delph, please read up on who was the the head banker and how his policy differed from that of globalist bankers. He was from Katowice.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
2 Jun 2010 #42
Advance planning needn't be so great to create red herrings like that. The only thing that is obvious is that the lights were tampered with.

Regardless of what happened with the lights (the Yak confirmed they were working fine) - it doesn't explain what the plane was doing where it was. The Captain took the plane down that far - no-one else. They have approach charts to tell them about the terrain, there is absolutely no excuse for that plane to go below 100m.

The real conspiracy here is the institutional failings within the Air Force. What went on after Miroslawiec?

You are a smart guy, Delph, please read up on who was the the head banker and how his policy differed from that of globalist bankers.

He was non-interventionist, no?

As for Lech Kaczynski winning - it wouldn't have changed anything if he won or lost. The President is quite powerless, remember?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Jun 2010 #43
Pilots tend to err on the side of caution. I don't think he'd've taken an unnecessary risk! I need to read a full transcript as I'm not convinced with what's been given to us.
aligator_s - | 77
2 Jun 2010 #44
due to Kaczynski's habit of attempting to prosecute pilots who refuse to land irrespective of the circumstances, these two young pilots would have been willing to risk landing the plane in far from ideal conditions. their folly caused the deaths of the passengers on the plane along with their own. Kaczynski was instrumental in his own death and that of his wife and cabinet by choosing pilots who could be manipulated by him.

I cannot conceive a worse time to 'off' the Polish president than whilst he was commemorating the murder of thousands of Poles during WWII by the Russians.

It does rather draw worldwide attention to the antics of the Soviets during the war

naturally Grassy Knoll conspiracy theorists will be disappointed by this rather mundane interpretation of events, however, I do not believe the Russians to be stupid enough to murder a Polish President who was on the way out in any case and bring world attention to Katyn.

just my two cents worth
noreenb 7 | 557
2 Jun 2010 #45
MediaWatch
Why are people taking the Russian transcripts of the Polish plane crash as the gospel truth?

This is a great question.

Why did control tower warn Polish crew just twice (I heard it in news), if there were no conditions for "sitting" a plane ot the ground.

Did they realise that pilots didn't realise that there were no weather conditions to land? They were continuing landing.

just my two cents worth
convex 20 | 3,978
2 Jun 2010 #46
Did they realise that pilots didn't realise that there were no weather conditions to land? They were continuing landing.

They wouldn't refuse them an attempt at landing. The airport is either closed, or it's opened. You fly the approach down to minimums and go missed if you don't see the runway. Same goes for any other approach at any other airport.
noreenb 7 | 557
2 Jun 2010 #47
convex
The airport is either closed, or it's opened.

so tell me please one thing, convex...
Why was it opened under no weather conditions?

Lets imagine
there are no conditions to land
1) you may land
2). you may crash

but you may try to land
you might either land or crash

So, let's try to land.... Hey ye!!!

there are conditions to land
1). land
2). do not land?

logical thinking is not my the best side...
convex 20 | 3,978
2 Jun 2010 #48
Why was it opened under no weather conditions?

Why would they close it? Wroclaw was open last Thursday with really low ceilings, but I had to fly to Lubin. Unlike the pilots of the Tu, I went missed early enough and am still here to tell you about it.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Jun 2010 #49
Why believe the official version more than any other? Is this all we are getting, a dodgy transcript?
pawian 171 | 12,080
2 Jun 2010 #50
Because conspiracy theories are usually created by bored maniacs and believed by bored simpletons.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
2 Jun 2010 #51
Pilots tend to err on the side of caution. I don't think he'd've taken an unnecessary risk! I need to read a full transcript as I'm not convinced with what's been given to us.

All you need to know is that the autopilot flew the aircraft into the ground. Switching it off is easy, put some control input. They didn't do that until they were 20m above the ground and falling at 10meter per second.

The language skill were irrelevant, the piloting skills were irrelevant.

Nobody was flying the aircraft - so it crashed.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
2 Jun 2010 #52
Yep..easy enough...kidnap the entire Polish elite , murder them..take em to Smolensk...steal an identical aircraft , smash it up ,and scatter the bits in Katyn forest , then claim there was a tragic accident...!

Piece of cake, I would say. If it's nothing else :)

The tape also reveals that the pilot(s) ignored warning signals from the onboard computer system.

Pilots just don't make those kinds of mistakes when given time to introduce corrective measures. The TAWS was working and serving its alerting function. The transcripts were bound to say that, did anyone expect anything else? Can they prove it? Anyone can put anything on the net these days!

Oh come on, Seanus!

>^..^<

M-G (so no big conspiracy, just a tragic gamble, which went wrong)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Jun 2010 #53
We see it time and again, people blindly believing what they read. I'm not endorsing any conspiracy theories here, just saying that blind faith in the official version is not right.

Official theories are created by those with agendas.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
2 Jun 2010 #54
just saying that blind faith in the official version is not right.

Ok, agreed. But I seem to remember that this was from a Polish source. I do not blindly believe in just anything I read or hear, but you will have to admit that this sounds very feasible.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
wildrover 98 | 4,451
2 Jun 2010 #55
This crash occurred near my home , friends of mine had people they knew on board...The accident was caused basically because the crew were ignoring their instruments while all looking out of the window to catch a glimpse of the ground in bad weather....Does this sound very similar to another more recent accident involving a Polish president..? The Russians were nowhere this one.....

Mirosławiec air accident occurred in Poland at 19:07 CET on 23 January 2008. An EADS CASA C-295 military transport plane of the Polish Air Force flying from Warsaw to the 12th Air Base in Mirosławiec crashed as it approached the Mirosławiec runway. All passengers and crew aboard were killed.[1] There were 20 victims, among them high-ranking air force officers.[2] This accident was the first serious accident of a CASA C-295. The primary cause of the accident was determined to be an inadvertent loss of spatial and situational awareness by the aircraft crew during the landing approach in poor weather conditions, with a low cloud ceiling and little visibility.[3] A number of secondary causes and contributing factors were also found by the investigation after the accident, including deficiencies in the air traffic controllers' skills and methods of directing and controlling the landing.[4]

After the accident, all Polish C-295s were grounded until further notice.[5] The Polish defence minister Bogdan Klich dismissed five air force personnel after the accident investigation concluded that multiple failings contributed to the crash

Seems to me the Polish air force needs to take a long hard look at the way it does things....
convex 20 | 3,978
2 Jun 2010 #56
BTW, interesting note about the Miroslawiec accident, the brass in the back were returning from a meeting about operational flight safety.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
2 Jun 2010 #57
hi i am not conspiracy theory supporter but one thing: there was one more black box that was made in poland and attached to plane,and supose to have all the same information that the others..it was given back to polish authorities to decode soon after the crash....after decoding we give this box to russian...what are those all speculation about russian forging box?!!!! we have averything already long ago!!!!!!
wildrover 98 | 4,451
2 Jun 2010 #58
Oh..don,t spoil their fun....They are convinced Putin did it...!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Jun 2010 #59
I still see the merit in the official line for all my doubts! I'm just questioning the evidence which is FAR from incontrovertible. Sherlock Holmes hasn't said 'indubitably dear Watson' yet on this one :)

The only thing I truly believe is when they said 'oh, kur*a' at the end ;)
wildrover 98 | 4,451
2 Jun 2010 #60
I imagine that most cockpit voice recordings have a similar ending.....I would like to go out shouting something really stupid , like beans forever for example...but i guess in the last moments of terror i would revert to the usual oh fcuk..!


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