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Conservative-liberalism (Laissez-faire liberalism), another utopia for Poland?


WielkiPolak 54 | 1,000
14 Jun 2011 #61
In responce to the original post in the thread.

Antek I like the way you wrote dicuss at the bottom as if this was a lesson in school for people to get in to groups and talk it over, then present to the class. Honestly I did not know too much about the ideas of Korwin-Mikke although I know who he is and know he runs in elections whenever they are around. I also know he wears an extremely stupid bow tie but that is beside the point I suppose.

As far as some of the rules he and his party set out, I understand the reasoning for them but they simply do not work. His idea of the state completely staying out of finances does not work. I am assuming this means the state does not fund much in the country although people still have to pay taxes to live in it. Why pay taxes to the state if nothing we use it state owned? What would we pay for? Just the army? That is absurd. Unless the taxing would be a lot lower. You can be fired by anyone at anytime, well again this seems fair on one hand but also means if noone wants to employ a person who is keen to work through choice, what happens to them? They do not get money from the state so what? They die? Living in Britain I understand the state benefits system, it makes sense. The only problem is when it is abused. What it does is guarantee that no matter what happens to you financially you are always going to have enough to survive. If you are out of a job but are honestly looking to find work then you get a some of money to get you through that time. If you have a family you get a bit mroe money. This idea that it is up to us to make money and those who make more have it better does not work because capitalism does not completely work. We do not live in a fair world where you get more the harder you work.

To conclude it seems his ideology suits those who make a lot of money most, as I think someone mentioned. Anyway Antek you said he gave these speeches in the 80s. I assume this was when Poland was still under communist rule? If so it is not surprising it would be music to many ears to hear that the state does not get involved in your business.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
14 Jun 2011 #62
Anyway Antek you said he gave these speeches in the 80s. I assume this was when Poland was still under communist rule? If so it is not surprising it would be music to many ears to hear that the state does not get involved in your business.

Yes, precisely. His (JKM's) ideas were fresh and convincing at that time. In the new reality, JKM turned out to be a failed businessman when he tried to make his own business. Therefore he saw his chance in the world of politics. His followers only think on not being taxed and excuse any stupidness of the concept the similar way as most lunatics supporting other Great Ideas do. I have to point out I'm talking on today's followers of UPR party and of JKM. They are frustrated because of the political fights between parties such as PO, PIS, SLD and they believe UPR would be the Saviour.
WielkiPolak 54 | 1,000
15 Jun 2011 #63
I assume the UPR still has the same ideas now as it did in the 1980's, more or less, meaning Korwin-Mikke is a hypocrite. He says we should work for own cash with no assistant from the state but suggests that parties get funded by the state. How about he goes by his own rules, makes some money and then uses that to fund the party.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
15 Jun 2011 #64
JKM was a quarter century younger back in 1980s and certainly he was an idealist at that time. The reality has verified his views and indeed JKM seems to me a hypocrite today, as you outlined above.

If you could ever talk with JKM, tell him this old joke (perhaps I am repeating myself):

A person who uses own money for own purposes is a capitalist.
A person who uses own money for purposes of other people is a philanthropist.
A person who uses money of other people for own purposes is a thief.
A person who uses money of other people for purposes of other people is a socialist.

Remind him he was saying that joke himself when he was young and ask him if he is a thief or a socialist today. Chances are you'll not get killed ;-)
milky 13 | 1,656
15 Jun 2011 #65
Guys like JkM may not get elected but they are the voice of industry and for this reason, his utopia has come through. I often wonder how people fall for such outdated failed sh1t that lunatics like him preach. The thing is, a lot of people think, that what they lived under during Sovietr times was communism and what ever is the opposite is the best for Poland. Rather than seeing the Soviet as nothing but an occupation by Russia. This idiosyncratic view point in the East of Europe, unless, it is dealt with rationally, will be the rope around their countries necks. The neo-liberal agenda is based on the philosophy of a thief hiding in diplomacy.

What happened the 'Third Way' lol..
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
15 Jun 2011 #66
That's how it was in America years ago and we had poverty and suffering so the government started social programs. Old people were left out in the cold, hungry and penniless. Are you sure you really want to live in this type of society? Do you really want to go back in time? Do you really believe things were better back then than they are now? I don't.
Lyzko
15 Jun 2011 #67
You mean Pre-New Deal America, Plaster Pole! One hundred percent in agreement, that's why Mr. Roosevelt (not a saint, nut as close to one as we're ever gonna see!!!!) instituted his social programs, or sure as I'm sitting here, Huey Long and his ilk would've taken over the White House and all hell could have broken loose.
PolskiMoc 4 | 323
16 Jun 2011 #68
That's how it was in America years ago and we had poverty and suffering so the government started social programs.

Yes, Well Social Security does very little.

Liberals have also burdened the poor with their constant increases in minimum wage. Which sounds great on the surface.

But, In Reality everytime they raise minimum wage companies have to increase product prices in order to make up for higher salaries.

Well, This is negative to older people. Because it means prices jump for them but retired people's pay checks don't.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
16 Jun 2011 #69
Yes, Well Social Security does very little.

Are you kidding me? Did you know if you retire at 70, social security pays something like 77% of your bills. That's a lot of extra money.
PolskiMoc 4 | 323
16 Jun 2011 #70
My father get's social security. They even tax it. It is maybe enough to buy groceries for a few months. That is about it.

The U.S Government has mismanaged & corrupted social security.

To me Government is not to be trusted.

Look at Poland. Poles saw the effects of large government with both Nazis & Communists.

Both Nazis & Communists were HUGE on social programs.

People say Nazis were far right but that is a huge lie. Nazis had alot of social programs. Much more than the U.S.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
16 Jun 2011 #71
The longer one waits to retire, the more one gets. If he retired in his early sixties, you are right, it pays very little.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
16 Jun 2011 #72
People say Nazis were far right but that is a huge lie. Nazis had alot of social programs. Much more than the U.S.

This explains a lot of matters discussed in the "Polish American Racism as Seen on PF".
PolskiMoc 4 | 323
16 Jun 2011 #73
The longer one waits to retire, the more one gets. If he retired in his early sixties, you are right, it pays very little.

My dad retired in mid 60's.

My Grandfather retired at about 70 & He also said social security barely did anything.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
16 Jun 2011 #74
My Grandfather retired at about 70 & He also said social security barely did anything.

It might also depend on how much he put into social security.
PolskiMoc 4 | 323
16 Jun 2011 #75
Your comment doesn't even make sense.

Nazis were a Socialist government. Not very different than Communists.

Nazis could be considered Far left in many ways. Nazis promoted Healthcare, More Education, More Social Programs, More Socialization & Control over factories & work places.

Nazis promoted Vegetarianism & Animal rights.

Nazis made Volkswagen the people's car. Very similar to how Communist governments made cars for the people.

Funny that Hippies drove Volkswagen beatles LOL

There was very little Right wing about Nazis? What their opression? Communists did that too.

What Nazis are far right because they were Anti Jew? Alot of the Left is anti Israel.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
16 Jun 2011 #76
Nazis were socialists, hence the name socialists workers party. They did have a lot of social programs though how they could manage financially with their wars and expansionism, when Germany had been in fiscal crisis only a short time earlier is something I cannot explain.

Probably has to do with them confiscating property and possessions. Part of their impetus was financing social programs.
PolskiMoc 4 | 323
16 Jun 2011 #77
The Nazi government did help the Economy.

As allthe miltary personel hired & all the production of Miltary weapons gave people jobs & put into the Economy.

However, In the long term Nazis would have likely bottomed out economically ( Iam talking if WW2 never happened) Socialism always stagnates & bottom's out.

Of course the power of the Govenrment behind Nazis lead to their direct collapse.

Big government is dangerous.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,648
16 Jun 2011 #78
As allthe miltary personel hired & all the production of Miltary weapons gave people jobs & put into the Economy.

Yes, but someone has got to pay the military.

However, In the long term Nazis would have likely bottomed out economically ( Iam talking if WW2 never happened) Socialism always stagnates & bottom's out.

Ultimately, they would have to keep invading to get more money.
Llamatic - | 140
16 Jun 2011 #79
Probably has to do with them confiscating property and possessions. Part of their impetus was financing social programs.

Just like the LibNazis of today!
PolskiMoc 4 | 323
16 Jun 2011 #80
Yes, but someone has got to pay the military.

True, That is why the Nazis would have fallen like the Soviets did eventually due to too high debt from massive socialist & miltary budgets.

This happened to Rome.
Sadly the U.S is heading down that same road.

I hear people bad mouth the tea party people in the U.S. But, At least they are for lowering the debt & government spending.

It really is a big issue. We need to lower the debt.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
17 Jun 2011 #81
Big government is dangerous.

Funny you should say that, yet claim to be Polish.

We all know that Poles love socialism, after all.

(and before you go on yet another rant - the majority of seats in the Sejm belong to socialists)
Bzibzioh
17 Jun 2011 #82
I bet any money that you can connect any comment in one, or two sentences the most, to Poland. Somehow. Must be a gift.
PolskiMoc 4 | 323
18 Jun 2011 #83
So all Poles love Socialism? For someone who claims to hate Prejudice you sure make alot of Generalizations. Not all Poles love Socialism.
Other nations in Europe are generally much more Socialist than Poland.

I stated that Two Big governments Nazis & Communists went against Poles. This is truth. They used their big governments against Poles as a means to opress Polish people.

What because enough Poles support Socialists? This means a Conservative Pole is not a real Pole? You sure have alot of logical skills. Yeah okay.

Poland is one of the most conservative countries going actually.

I saw a statistic that showed Poland had one of the highest Conservative party memberships in the world.

I have met alot more Libertarian Poles & Poles that support Ron Paul than I have American Libertarians that support Ron Paul oddly enough.

I have met quite a few Poles who follow the Libertarian philosophy of Friedrich Von Hayek.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Jun 2011 #84
So all Poles love Socialism?

Shows how little you know.

Need I remind you that Polish politics since 1945 has been dominated by socialist parties - indeed, do I need to remind you that Solidarity was a trade union with some ridiculously socialist programmes?

Even the current political landscape - three out of the four big parties are from socialist origins, with the ruling party being a mix of socialists and conservatives.

Poland is one of the most conservative countries going actually.

Hahaha. Common mistake made by those who can't speak Polish. It's a socialist country that adheres to Catholic teachings on social issues.

I have met alot more Libertarian Poles & Poles that support Ron Paul than I have American Libertarians that support Ron Paul oddly enough.

They're not Polish, dumbass - they're Americans.

Most Poles wouldn't even have a clue who Ron Paul is or indeed care.
PolskiMoc 4 | 323
18 Jun 2011 #86
Even the current political landscape - three out of the four big parties are from socialist origins, with the ruling party being a mix of socialists and conservatives.

Yes, Because in 1945 we had Brits sold Poland out to the Soviets in Potsdam & Yalta.

The truth is that Poland was negatively impacted by two Large govenrments.

Do you understand this? Or are you way too smart? LOL

Poland is one of the most conservative nations in Europe. Poland has one of the highest conservative party membership rates in Europe
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Jun 2011 #87
Who is Ron Paul?

The internet fawns over him, but he's pretty much on the fringe of American politics. He's the Tea Party darling - but their time is already over.
OP Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
18 Jun 2011 #88
My question was rather rhetorical since I could have googled that out myself but it is true I've never heard of Ron Paul until I joined these Forums.
Llamatic - | 140
18 Jun 2011 #89
Tea Party ... - but their time is already over.

Hardly. Wishful thinking doesn't change anything. Sorry.
Romany1x
18 Jun 2011 #90
I've never heard of Ron Paul until I joined these Forums.

He's not worth paying attention to outside the US (or inside if you take and follow politics seriously). Been trying for President since the 80s, and received a miniscule number of votes for Rep Pres candidate last time around. Mitt Romney is the one to be looking out for as rep candidate. The Tea-party hype is liberal media trying to make republicans appear moronic in the eyes of floating voters.


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