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Witamy, Guest
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EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms


Atch 14 | 2,265    
26 Jul 2017  #1

Interesting development. The European Commissioners have just announced that despite the veto they will take action anyway over the law on the lower courts which has already been signed by Duda. As soon as that law is published the EU will issue a letter of formal notice for breach of EU laws. They've stated that an independent judiciary 'is an essential precondition for membership of our union'. So that couldn't be any plainer could it? Also they're not prepared to wait two months for Dithering Duda to get his act together. They want the other vetoed legislation addressed within one month.

Make no mistake - it's wigs on the green this time.

Sparks11 - | 327    
26 Jul 2017  #2

i think this is the straw... i read something this morning that said they would wait and see if there are mass firings before taking action.
polinv    
26 Jul 2017  #3

Poland has also today been warned of court action over refugees. It looks like Merkel is crossing the t's and dotting the i's before the election. Germany ultimately holds the purse strings for the next EU budget, so Poland will need to fall in line to some degree.
Tacitus 1 | 377    
26 Jul 2017  #4

Good. Europe has abonded Poland too often in the past. It is reassuring to know that the EU has the back of the Poles who understand the truly dangerous implications of the proposed law.
Ironside 46 | 8,800    
26 Jul 2017  #5

so Poland will need to fall in line to some degree.@ polinv

like F!

It looks like Merkel is crossing

the line too much is too much.
Poland should leave the EU.

the EU has the back of the Poles

Really? Poland with such friends doesn't need enemies.
polinv    
26 Jul 2017  #6

Poland should leave the EU.

The majority of Poles want to remain in the EU, so you are in the minority here. Do you even live in Poland to talk such rubbish? What would you rather have, a pact with Russia?

like F!

Nice response. Unfortunately if Poland wants to retain EU money to any degree (a fall in any case is likely given the growth/convergence since the last budget), it is going to have to compromise to some degree.
kondzior 8 | 915    
26 Jul 2017  #7

So far nothing that didn't happen before: EU says it will sanction Poland, this time for sure, like every 3 months in the last 2 years and they're still powerless to anything.
jon357 69 | 13,491    
26 Jul 2017  #8

this time for sure

You should be far from sure. This time they mean business
Harry 81 | 13,362    
26 Jul 2017  #9

Make no mistake - it's wigs on the green this time.

The thing that worries me is that the EU might take action by dramatically slashing the funding Poland gets in the next budget, which takes effect from 2021. Given that by then the anti-PIS coalition will be in government, they will then get the blame from the electorate for Poland losing a seventh of the amount the government spends and the PIS will storm back into office in the 2024 elections.

Poland should leave the EU.

The vast majority of people who think enough of Poland to pay their taxes here say otherwise.

Do you even live in Poland to talk such rubbish? What would you rather have, a pact with Russia?

He last lived here very shortly before the fall of the Commie regime, so to him the pact with the USSR was the good old days and he supports the EU taking any action at all which might lead to such a pact being established again.
Ironside 46 | 8,800    
26 Jul 2017  #10

if Poland wants to retain EU money to any degree

Well, If the EU countries want to retain all the advantages the EU gives them they should keep up paying compensation to Poland. Germany alone has about two million jobs going in Germany due to the economical privileges the EU agreements grand them in Poland. If they want to back out of it - fine. However it is a not a self-serving Buffet that they can pick and chose what they like. It is a package - if one item goes that all goes out the window.

Ideological pretexts for subjugation of a nation do not wash.
---en

The majority of Poles want to remain in the EU,

As long as they see economical sense it it. If all that remains are dues to pay any obedience to the masters in Brussels - that support will melt faster than an ice cube in the hot oven.

This time they mean business

This time they should be arrested and investigated if they ever set foot on a Polish soil. After all conspiring to overthrow a legal government in a foreign country is a serious offence.

What more Poland's internal affairs are not business of theirs.
Ironside 46 | 8,800    
26 Jul 2017  #11

What would you rather have, a pact with Russia?

Well, The EU doesn't have much to do with the security of Poland. It is the NATO that has little to do with the EU.. Are you savvy in all things political like in this EU - NATO confusion? Congrats.

To give an answer to your question: Poland can have a nice relation with the USA and Israeli. Encomia as well, not to mention countries of the central and eastern Europe like in the three seas initiative. There is potential and nobody has to makes Poland any favours and they treat her like a paid *****. Thank you but NO - get lost!
Tacitus 1 | 377    
26 Jul 2017  #12

To those who believe that Poland could do easily without EU money, it is worth remembering that Warsaw receives in structural funds more money than it actually spends on defence. Poland would lose a vital factor for its' current economic growth.

Poland can have a nice relation with the USA and Israeli.

Is this really how you envision Poland's future? Completely isolated in Europe, whose only allies are either increasingly desinterested in European affairs, or more occupied with their own unstable neighbourhood in the ME?
Ironside 46 | 8,800    
26 Jul 2017  #13

Completely isolated in Europe,

In your dreams, there are lost of European countries like 11 or more that are interested in a good relation with Poland. If some country in Europe becomes increasingly being isolated we are talking Germany. Ah but you have Russia to console with.

could do easily without EU money

Could and should.
polinv    
26 Jul 2017  #14

If you look at most of the projects carried out in Poland since joining the EU, they have been in part and often majority funded by the EU. Even pre 2004, private foreign money moved in to take advantage of low asets price as a play on Poland entrering the EU. Before this period, time stood still for a lot of people. Those that wanted to, had the opportunity to buy however much petrol they wanted to and drive where ever they wanted to and later, work all over Europe. Now wages are catching up the West, as is the general economy, less Poles are taking the step to work or move abroad. These days, in the main, only those with no prospects and nothing to lose are considering moving abroad. I always said the difference between the East and West was you could work your way up the ladder in the West, starting from nothing, while this wasn't possible in Poland. These days, whilst still more difficult than in some western countries, you can. Many things weren't done perfectly, (but such in hindsight), but anyone that argues things were better under communism than now clearly lives in cuckoo land or at least doesnt live in Poland to see the changes.
Sparks11 - | 327    
26 Jul 2017  #15

talk of forming a strong visegrad group or lucrative ties with the balkans are about as likely as great britain not crashing out of the eu. nothing but govt inactivity
Ironside 46 | 8,800    
26 Jul 2017  #16

anyone that argues things were better under communism than now clearly lives in cuckoo

Talking about red herring. Go and play in the sand.

talk of forming a strong visegrad group or lucrative ties with the balkans are about as likely as great britain not crashing out of the eu.

I see you're not up to date. Go back to your slumber.
polinv    
26 Jul 2017  #17

Talking about red herring. Go and play in the sand.

Talking of sand, take your head out of it. Having left Poland before the fall of communism (why did you leave, you clearly werent satisified), your views on today's Poland are as useful as a hole in a bucket.
Ironside 46 | 8,800    
26 Jul 2017  #18

Having left Poland before the fall of communism

Who told you that? Are you listening to the infamous troll of PF? Typical. Anyway I don't fathom what does it matter? Am I asking you to give me your credential, a home adders and a bank account number? You're confusing EU and NATO that dead giveaway that you're clueless and that is all I need to know.

Then you argue with something I have never said - making things up as you go. Strike two.
Strike three you're getting personal basing it on some gossip. You're out!
jgrabner 1 | 51    
26 Jul 2017  #19

Warsaw receives in structural funds more money than it actually spends on defence

maybe in the coming years, but not so in 2016:

In 2016, investment activity declined significantly due to a low utilisation of the EU structural funds and increased uncertainty.

ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/2017-european-semester-country-report-poland-en.pdf

but let's say that the full EUR 86.1 billion will be distributed throughout the 2014-2020 timeframe, we are talking about EUR 12,3 billions per year or EUR 320 per polish citizien per year or EUR 27 per citizen per month.

and we are talking gross inflows here. The goverment spends PLN 18 billions (EUR 4 billions) in EU contributions in 2017: mf.gov.pl/documents/764034/5945940/20170630_state_budget_expenditure_V_2017.pdf

so there is only a maximum inflow of EUR 8 billions net targeted to specific projects and we are down to EUR 210 per citizen per year to EUR 17,5 per citizen per month.

And this is the maximum, which is never reached. One year before the end of the 2007-2013 program, only 61% of these funds were actually distributed and in the end, more than 10% was never paid at all: insideurope.eu/node/487

To further compare the numbers, let's look at FDI: com/Publication/vwLUAssets/EY_Attractiveness_Survey_Poland_2017/$FILE/EY-Attractiveness-Survey-Poland-2017.pdf]
we had for every year since 2005 an annual investment from foreign entities of more than USD 1,000 billion in Poland and on average USD 830 billion in greenfield investments, meaning building facilities like offices and factories from scratch. Outflow of funds is on the other side comparatively low, some USD 50 billion.

Compared to FDI, EU funds are a drop in the ocean. And I have not even started to analyse how efficient that EU funds are put to work. Not everything is going into obviously useful projects like building roads, bridges, and railways, but there is plenty of stuff devised by EU bureaucrats that has at least questionable value.

Considering Brexit will diminish the source of funds together with lagging countries like Italy also not able or willing to pony up lots of money, starting from 2021, CEE countries will have to live with less EU funds anyway and I project that nobody will really notice.
Harry 81 | 13,362    
26 Jul 2017  #20

Compared to FDI, EU funds are a drop in the ocean.

The point is how much of that FDI comes without those EU funds and how much of it comes without EU membership. Those of us who have been here long enough to remember the days before EU membership can tell you about the vast differences. Or you can just visit Poland and then go visit Ukraine.

Considering Brexit will diminish the source of funds

The amount the UK pays in is fairly similar to the amount Poland receives; hopefully other nations don't notice the very simple solution to how to prevent them from [paying in more / being paid less] (delete as applicable) as a result of Brexit.
polinv    
26 Jul 2017  #21

You're confusing EU and NATO

NATO??? Who mentioned Nato?
As for strikes, you were never in the game. And if youre not in Poland, you still arent in the game.
Sparks11 - | 327    
26 Jul 2017  #22

I see you're not up to date. Go back to your slumber

so you think that pis (or any govt for that matter) is capable of swinging a bunch of new deals that will make up for eu funds? what can poland offer america? what does it produce? china?
delphiandomine 86 | 16,477    
26 Jul 2017  #23

This time they mean business

It's clear that enough is enough, and that there's enough support among European countries for sanctioning Poland.

Compared to FDI, EU funds are a drop in the ocean.

I can assure you that plenty of those funds have gone on attracting foreign businesses to Poland.
mafketis 16 | 5,681    
26 Jul 2017  #24

It's clear that enough is enough, and that there's enough support among European countries for sanctioning Poland.

I'm assuming today is about getting things in place to act quickly when and if the time comes.

JK, who knows nothing of the outside world, will probably overplay his very weak hand again (as he did with Tusk's re-election).
delphiandomine 86 | 16,477    
26 Jul 2017  #25

I'm assuming today is about getting things in place to act quickly when and if the time comes.

Yes, it seems so. There's an article here - euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/article-7-the-ins-and-outs-of-the-eus-nuclear-option/ - that explains that the Hungarian "veto" that JK has been relying on doesn't actually exist. Even if the Slovaks and Czechs also join in, it still isn't enough if all the other member states agree. There's also no way that this would have been mentioned if there wasn't already the 80% in favour.

JK, who knows nothing of the outside world, will probably overplay his very weak hand again (as he did with Tusk's re-election).

Absolutely. He has a very, very poor grasp of how the EU works and how deals are done, and he seems to genuinely believe that Poland is big enough to stand up to the EU. I wouldn't be surprised to see Szydło humiliated again after a final chance meeting before formal sanctions.
Crow 145 | 6,860    
26 Jul 2017  #26

There is the strong possibility that EU deliberately pushing Poland on the edge, antagonize processes within country. What edge, why- those are million dollar questions.
Lyzko 17 | 4,603    
26 Jul 2017  #27

Too much unsolicited interference from the EU may hinder rather than help Poland's cause, I fear!
nothanks - | 665    
26 Jul 2017  #28

Too early to leave. I am firmly against the direction of the EU but this direction is not yet set in stone as the defacto future of the EU. Likely - yes but not yet definite.

EU is currently unable to handle people smugglers so in no position to wage political war with member states. As with most issues involving the EU - I expect threats, slander and no results
jon357 69 | 13,491    
26 Jul 2017  #29

I'm assuming today is about getting things in place to act quickly when and if the time comes.

Very much so. They don't take decisions lightly, quickly or without thorough planning.

JK, who knows nothing of the outside world, will probably overplay his very weak hand again

This is exactly what's likely, if PiS don't get him sedated or even hospitalised before he drives the final nail into their coffin with more outbursts.
Crow 145 | 6,860    
26 Jul 2017  #30

I expect threats, slander and no results

Still, Poles shouldn`t be overconfident but watchful. As you may notice, Poland`s politics is quite isolated, even from rest of the Visegrad group. Moreover, at this moment, official Poland has best possible relations with non else but Croatia- that has openly (!) pro-German and pro-Nazi regime. Then, this way or another, EU thwarted Chinese investments in Poland. Also, EU and NATO successfully awaking Polish-Russian antagonism in situation when Russia grow stronger. Not to mention too much of relaying on USA by official Poland. At the same time, official Poland aggravated relations with Vatican. And look how official Poland with hostility meddling in Serbia and in Serbian interests in general, what also colliding Poland`s politics with aims of Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia. So, not just deeply isolating Poland but antagonizing Poland with traditional loyal friends. Obviously, some new elite rule in Poland. Elite that abandoning even old Polish spheres of influence in South-Eastern Europe, in which old Polish Kings and many Polish thinkers invested a lot of.

Truly, no space for optimism right now.




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