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Commemoration of 80th anniversary of the outbreak of the WWII in Warsaw. Poland a full-fledged NATO member.


Ironside 48 | 9,900
7 Sep 2019 #1
Mike Pence, Merkel and German President Frank Walter Something and some others have been there. German President asked for Forgiveness, Pence talked about God and nobody on PF even mentioned it.

What more important Poland became a full-fledged NATO member. Until now Poland was a member but not really. Due to agreement between USA and Russia. Seems like it is a thing of the past.

I have been waiting for someone to start a threat about it. In vain. Jabbering about visas instead as if that was an important issue.
Lenka 3 | 1,514
7 Sep 2019 #2
Such commemoration happens every year. While nice and all it doesn't have too much of an impact on everyday life.
Visas on the other hand will make a difference to quite few Poles who could visit their relatives etc with much less hassle. Not a big deal for me but compared to ceremony that happens every year ...

And what exactly do you mean by the NATO thing?
OP Ironside 48 | 9,900
7 Sep 2019 #3
Such commemoration happens every year.

Well it doesn't happened every year. Not with such guests nor with such declarations. Geez ... I shouldn't be but I'm surprised because of a level of your detachment. Not a criticisms just an observation, your political 'acumen' is very superficial.

And what exactly do you mean by the NATO thing?

Poland became a member of the NATO with one condition attached, no USA troops on Polish soil. It was an agreement between Russia and Usia (as BB says).

You don't know that? Is not exactly a secret.

Visas on the other hand will make a difference to quite few Poles

phew ... not really, IF Polish gov would introduce payment for US chintzes for visas that would keep it all in a nice balance. Those who want t o visit their family they can get there no problem.
Lenka 3 | 1,514
7 Sep 2019 #4
But it's still just a ceremony. And an American talking about God is pretty standard.

US teoops in Poland is nothing new either. Even some accidents caused by them where discussed on PF.

All in all not much to discuss imo.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,900
7 Sep 2019 #5
US teoops in Poland is nothing new either.

As I said you go for superficial and flashy. It is new. Look if you don't pay attention or don't get issues that is not a crime. Just remember that your are not a well informed person.
Lenka 3 | 1,514
7 Sep 2019 #6
I would say you go for emty words instead of real things. Like some speech on celebration that changes nothing to real changes in law ( visa waiver program).

But if you disagree please give me real life result from those two speeches.
Lyzko 24 | 6,777
7 Sep 2019 #7
The thread title might sounds a bit as though WW II broke out in Warsaw:-)LOL

Kidding aside, I think Poland ought to be proud of her entry into a democratic forum among the
European Union.

There are always going to be those who complain, but again, any organization, not matter how "open", will impose its own rules upon its members and it must be accepted so long as they conform to reasonable limitations.

Democracy doesn't mean a bloody free for all!
OP Ironside 48 | 9,900
7 Sep 2019 #8
I would say you go for emty words instead of real things

You could say whatever you like but in this case you would be a dead wrong. It was announced officially that US troops will have a permanent base in Poland. until now presence of US millinery personnel on the Polish soil was temporary and limited due to some USA/Russia agreement behind Poland's back. It is done away with and Poland is a full member of the organization. That is a very solid and important fact.

to real changes in law ( visa waiver program).

Those were just empty words. President of the USA has no say or not power to change those laws. It is up to Congress. Even more what was said has nothing to do with changes of the law. It was a simple announcement that according to US records Poland will fulfil requirements of the law which will make VWP open to the Polish citizens. Phew, no big deal, I honestly don't know who cares about it. They can refuse entry to you anyways on some trump up charges - it is pathetic considering US border with Mexico is like a sieve.

The only reason I made a fuss about it in the past was because I perceived it as dumb and unfair application of the law that made Poland some kind of a pariah while other eastern European countries enjoyed that VWP without reservation. I still think it was a dick move considering how much money the east cost made on Poland after 1989.
Lenka 3 | 1,514
7 Sep 2019 #9
Your complain was about nobody mentioning the speeches of the German and American presidents and even though I watched the ceremony I don't see any big deal. More fuss was made about Duda's speech. And while I was talking about VWP I wasn't talking about any silly political promises but about what seems to be waiting around the corner. Data suggests we may reach the requirements. Doesn't matter to me but will help some other Poles
Chemikiem 6 | 2,113
8 Sep 2019 #10
I have been waiting for someone to start a threat about it. In vain

Well there aren't too many Poles here to start with and it's more likely someone Polish would start a thread than not. I think it's more the older generation that views these things as important, younger people have less interest.

It was commemorated not only in Warsaw, but in Wielun, where the first bombs fell, and in Westerplatte, Gdańsk.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49541111
pawian 161 | 9,971
8 Sep 2019 #11
Such commemoration happens every year.

Yes, each year the head teacher mentions the WW2 during the opening ceremony. The only difference is this year there was a minute of silence to commemorate the victims.

I have been waiting for someone to start a threat about it. In vain.

That`s interesting. Why are you so reluctant to start threads? Don`t be afraid to show some initiative.... :)
Crow 137 | 7,754
9 Sep 2019 #12
What more important Poland became a full-fledged NATO member.

Wrong. They didn`t tell you? Poles are Slavs and therefore, never full-fledged, never true partner, never important factor. Only younger partner and meet for grinding machine.

Don`t you feel shame Irone?

How did the mighty fallen
johnny reb 18 | 3,769
18 Sep 2019 #13
The thread title might sounds a bit as though WW II broke out in Warsaw:-)LOL

I always thought that the Soviet Union's invasion, which came two weeks after Germany invaded and started World War II.
Lyzko 24 | 6,777
18 Sep 2019 #14
Obviously, I was merely noting a point of word order:-)
johnny reb 18 | 3,769
18 Sep 2019 #15
Oh I understand that Lyzko.
I just read where Russia and Poland are sniping at each other on Twitter over who actually invaded Poland in WWII.
The Russian embassy in South Africa didn't let Poland's tweet go without a denial.
Crow 137 | 7,754
18 Sep 2019 #16
Let us speak openly and honestly, with hand on heart. Did Germany invaded Poland with blessings from western Europe? It did. Before that Nazi Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and even regime in Poland was involved, side by side with Germany. Was regime in Poland hostile on back then communists regime in Soviet Union even before Hitler got to power? It was.

Taking all in account, what should Soviet Union do when `Drang Nach Osten` became legitimate process and Poland sent to oblivion this way or another, with Soviet Union or without it? Frankly, I would do the same, if I was leader of Soviet Union. Act and take what you can, while you can, for so many reasons.

You better ask Vatican, why Vatican supported Nazi Germany. Vatican is far greater enemy to Poland then it was even that horror communist regime in Moscow and all previous regimes in Russia before communism ever. But be honest, ask Vatican - WHY?

I think you know the answer. Turn yourself into salt but they will do that until last Slaveno-Pole perish from the face of Earth.
pawian 161 | 9,971
18 Sep 2019 #17
The historical truth is that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union became allies through the Ribbentrop Molotov Pact and divided Eastern Europe between themselves. All other theories which the Kremlin invents are lies aiming at whitening the Soviet Union and Stalin, remembered with heart breaking nostalgia by quite a lot of Russians.
kaprys 2 | 1,914
18 Sep 2019 #18
WW2 started on September 1, 1939.
pawian 161 | 9,971
18 Sep 2019 #19
Exactly. But the Soviet Union was delaying its invasion for so long that Hitler finally got pissed off and sent a message to Foreign Minister Molotov, asking why Soviets were not attacking Poland as it had been agreed. Eventually, Stalin gave the green light for an attack on 17th September.

That is how Soviets entered the war in 1941. :):):)
Lyzko 24 | 6,777
18 Sep 2019 #20
...with the German Army "entering" Gleiwitz aka Gliwice to you, this hard on the heels of Hitler's invasion of the Sudetenland one year earlier.

Cartier-Bresson's famous shot, one of the most famous of the entire conflict, shows a Czech woman weeping into her handkerchief, unwillingly
forcing a Nazi salute as the German army rolls through the streets of her beloved Prague. Unforgettable, much as with Robert Capa's "Death
of a Loyalist" some years earlier during the Spanish Civil War.
kaprys 2 | 1,914
18 Sep 2019 #21
I'm afraid you got something wrong. The attack started from the air (bombing of Wieluń with about 75% of the town destroyed without any previous declaration of war), the sea (Schleswig Holstein and Westerplatte) and on land.

Gliwice incident was one of the false flags incidents before the attack.
As for the photo, as far as I know the woman was a Sudetenland German and these were tears of happiness.
johnny reb 18 | 3,769
18 Sep 2019 #22
I read some on this today.
It wasn't until September 17 with Polish government fleeing & forces defeated that the Red Army entered "Polish territories".
Russia's response to Poland takes on more significance because of Crimea in 2014, a move reminiscent of its invasion of Poland in 1939 which in both cases Moscow denied the invasion but claimed the lands being invaded belonged to them anyways.

Germany and the USSR invaded and carved up Polish territory between them, although the Soviet Union did not formally declare war.
kaprys 2 | 1,914
19 Sep 2019 #23
@johnny reb
It's basic history. Don't they really teach that in the US? Germany invades Poland, Poland is the first country to fight back. Britain and France declare war on Germany. Later the USSR invades Poland. Soon the conflict spreads all over Europe and the world. You know the Axis, the Allies etc. Most historians consider the German attack on Poland as the beginning of WW2, some point to earlier events.
johnny reb 18 | 3,769
19 Sep 2019 #24
Don't they really teach that in the US?

No, in fact most students in the US couldn't even find Poland on a map.
Poland is of no importance to them.
Crow 137 | 7,754
19 Sep 2019 #25
WW2 started on September 1, 1939.

No, WW2 started on October 1, 1938. Czechoslovakia. Prelude to war was `anschluss` of Austria to Nazi Germany in March 1938.

September 1, 1939 was just one of dates in the line.

So, taking Sudet from Czechoslovakia happened under the terms of `Munich Agreement` that was concluded at Munich on 30 September 1938, by Nazi Germany, the United Kingdom, the France, and Italy. They gave `Carte Blanche` to Germany to start its expansion, to start war. It started against Slavs, of course and Slavs were biggest and true victim of that war. Sure, Jews, too.
johnny reb 18 | 3,769
19 Sep 2019 #26
That was a crisis not a war Crow.
I actually think, given the efficacy of Czech weaponry in subsequent German use that the Czechs might well have given the boxheads a run for their money.
Lyzko 24 | 6,777
19 Sep 2019 #27
History is usually interpreted by the Allies aka the victors rather than by the Axis Powers, that is, the losers in this case.
Germany invaded the Sudetenland in 1938, two years following the Anschluss or Annexation of Austria (the Nazi "Ostmark").
Only just one year later, correctly stated on the 9.of September 1939, Hitler decided to invade Poland, entry through Gleiwitz!

The photograph of the woman bathed in tears might be compared with that of the man from the '40 image by Cartier-Bresson showing tears streaming down his cheeks as the Germans took Paris, the year France fell. Unless you're referring to a separate photograph, that woman, her head turned dramatically to the side, her hand outstretched in a Nazi salute, was crying tears of desperation and sadness, surely not joy.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
19 Sep 2019 #28
WW II startet on 01. 09. 1939.

The german people in the Sudetenland were forced into the newly founded Chechoslovakia against their will by the victors of WW1, sowing the seeds of WWII. They were treated by the Czechs as second class citizens (no right to vote for example)

Unsurprisingly they saw Hitler as their liberator and welcomed the annexion! They fighted for their right of self determination. Not a good cause to open the war against Hitler for the allies, so they looked the other way.

Now the invasion of Poland was another thing altogether...
kaprys 2 | 1,914
19 Sep 2019 #29
xyz

@Lyzko
Are you talking about this image? It's not in Prague and look at the shop windows behind her. And the people next to her. I'm pretty sure these were tears of joy. And no, the war didn't start on September 9, 1939 in Gliwice.

@johnny reb
Whether Poland is important to Americans or not, that is common knowledge. It's one of the biggest conflicts in history. Just like they teach us about Alexander the Great even though hardly anyone is able to point ancient Macedonia on the map.

And the result us that later you read that WW2 started on September 9/17. ..

@Bratwurst Boy
War is never easy for civilians but still ...
Whether or not they were treated as second class citizens, do you remember when I asked you about Karlsbad and I thought it was German Karlsbad? (it was you, wasn't it? :) Well, apparently they didn't mind treating others as second class citizens.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
19 Sep 2019 #30
(it was you, wasn't it? :)

Yeah...:)

The aftermath of WWI was a mess...drawing new borders across centuries old ethnic settlements...it was a disaster waiting to happen.

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