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British man accused of molesting teenagers in Poland


convex 20 | 3,978
20 Apr 2011 #31
the type of policy set by a Polish supplementary school in the UK which can be found here.

Seems like more of an attempt to "CYA" by the management of the school. It's all based on voluntary disclosure and assumes that the applicant will be honest. It gets even more complicated when you start employing foreigners. CRB doesn't have any records on their activities in their home countries, and their past will be much more difficult to verify? Did Mr Kowalski, or Ms Schmidt, or Mr Evans get a conviction in Romania before moving to the UK? What if they don't voluntarily disclose that they worked there? It seems like in the end it's still more or less based on the honor system.
Harry
20 Apr 2011 #32
Seems like more of an attempt to "CYA" by the management of the school

You misread it. The bit which says "and grant permission to check data held with Criminal Records Bureau by signing the CRB Disclosure form" means that it doesn't matter whether the applicant is honest: if he's got form, he'll be found out.

CRB doesn't have any records on their activities in their home countries, and their past will be much more difficult to verify?

So require them to produce a similar document from Poland. I'm frankly a bit surprised that the school in question doesn't.

It seems like in the end it's still more or less based on the honor system.

It seems that you have misunderstood the regulations.
convex 20 | 3,978
20 Apr 2011 #33
if he's got form, he'll be found out.

If the crime happened in the UK. I'm guessing that the JP2 Polish supplementary school hires quite a few foreigners.

So require them to produce a similar document from Poland. I'm frankly a bit surprised that the school in question doesn't.

Yup, just like when starting a company. It's not too difficult, and would cover the majority of people applying. Wouldn't do much for serial criminals.

It seems that you have misunderstood the regulations.

The applicant still has to fill out the form. If I'm a Swiss guy that has been convicted of a crime in Bulgaria and am applying for a position in Britain, all I'd have to do is just not tell you that I was in Bulgaria. That's what I meant by honor system and a CYA form. Especially considering the number of people that are passing through for a year or so and then move on to somewhere else (lots of them in Prague, Budapest, Bucharest...not so many here I suppose).
Harry
20 Apr 2011 #34
If the crime happened in the UK. I'm guessing that the JP2 Polish supplementary school hires quite a few foreigners.

Which is why I'm surprised that they don't have any policy in place to check background outside the UK.

Although given that it is a Polish school and private schools in Poland do precisely bugger all in the way of background checks, it is not entirely surprising.
convex 20 | 3,978
20 Apr 2011 #35
Do you think that the parents just assume that due diligence is being performed? Naivete?
Harry
20 Apr 2011 #36
I'm actually never thought about it from their point of view.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
20 Apr 2011 #37
When a Brit molests a child in Poland it's because of... "Poland's shocking inability"

Grow up, it's a perfectly valid point that he is raising.
Tymoteusz 2 | 353
20 Apr 2011 #38
Send him to Florida. We'll cure him.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
20 Apr 2011 #39
Yes, I know such checks aren't perfect - but at least they might discourage the real nasty ones.

It's probably because the lack of checks makes it easier to gain access that he came here.

I reckon it's only a matter of time before things start going the way they have in UK.

Example, In UK I offered to accompany my sister and her young son on a school trip to the zoo and to help supervise. I was told it wasn't possible because I wasn't CRB'd (crime check). I pointed out that I was, but was told it probably wasn't for that particular region.

Poland, I work with kids in a school (no check), I have been supervisor of groups of young teenagers (no check) and been the only adult with them on international bus travel (no check), I've run theatre workshops (unsupervised) with kids and at risk adults (no check).

British system is a bit tight-@rsed at times but it's there to protect people. Polish system is still surprisingly trusting.

Foreigners have to be screened more before they are employed in Poland.

Is this a recent thing? When I moved to Poland in 2002 I walked straight into a job at a (non-public) Liceum/gymnasium with no checks and without even having a teaching qualification.

On another subject raised, about camps etc, a few years ago we ran a summer camp in a local holiday centre. The centre was also hosting a group of martial artists from warsaw. While our kids were staying in the centre's rooms, the MA guys were camping, as were some youngsters from a sailing club. One man attached to the MA group started harrassing some young girls in our group, even trying to get into their room. We complained to the management and to the organiser of the MA group. The organiser said he couldn't do anything as the guy wasn't one of his MA guys, he was a 'friend' of one of them and not really part of the group. Also, although being the organiser, everyone had come 'on their own', so he couldn't tell anyone to leave. The management backed his position and did nothing.

We informed the organiser of the sailors' group and he said he was already aware of this man's 'interest' in young girls. Still the management did nothing. It was the last time we used that place!
A J 4 | 1,088
20 Apr 2011 #40
When a Brit molests a child in Poland it's because of... "Poland's shocking inability"

Yeah, it *does* sound pretty arrogant, doesn't it?

:S
z_darius 14 | 3,968
20 Apr 2011 #41
it's sickening that Poland allows people to have unrestricted access to children without any sort of criminal check.

The problem is that if there were to be a more thorough system of checking whatever it needs to NOW be checked because some Brits are animals, then we would hear a unison choir spitting at "Poland's ridiculous bureaucracy", and how can you do business in Poland with all those rules?

The genius of the Brits is that they will find a reason to spit at you no matter what. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Not that the scale and the gravity of the issue is the same, but it reminds me of the opium wars, whereby Brits first worked hard on demoralizing the Chinese society with dope, and then claiming the Chinese people were worthless and lazy bum because they smoke opium. When the Chinese disposed of some serious quantities of the said dope the Brits attacked in defense of their lost property.

A perfidious kind indeed.
OP delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Apr 2011 #42
how can you do business in Poland with all those rules?

I wouldn't have any problem with a system that was clear, straightforward and relied on facts rather than hearsay.

There's a middle ground between Poland's lack of checks and the UK's over-zealous checking.

One thing that scares me is that Polish employers don't even seem to do their own checks - I was hiring someone for a primary school job recently, and I thoroughly checked into their background before even considering anyone - including calling (not e-mailing) several past employers with difficult questions about what they've been doing there.

At least two out of the six originally considered turned out to have been lying about their past!
Harry
20 Apr 2011 #43
how can you do business in Poland with all those rules?

Given the rules which are already in place, one as sensible as checking to see if people who want to work with kids aren't convicted nonces is not going to make much difference to the ease with which business is done in Poland. Not that you would know much about how business is done in Poland.

As for "some Brits are animals", yes some Brits are, and so are some Poles. But given that the number of Poles working with kids in Poland is much higher than the number of Brits and the fact that Poles have to go through precisely the same kind of background checks as Brits in order to work with children (i.e. none at all), the chances are that a kid who is abused in Poland by a Pole is a lot higher than the chances that they'll be abused by a Brit. In fact, if it was a Pole who'd been doing the abusing here, the story wouldn't have even cracked the local paper: it is just too common to even make the news.

The genius of the Brits is that they will find a reason to spit at you no matter what. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Seeing as Poland isn't doing anything about what has long been known to be a problem, Poland deserves to be damned.

A perfidious kind indeed.

But at least not the kind who allow children to be abused because they can not be arsed to fix what has long been known to be a problem.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
20 Apr 2011 #44
the fact that Poles have to go through precisely the same kind of background checks as Brits in order to work with children

So what good is that CRB check in UK if it's not adhered to?

Seeing as Poland isn't doing anything about what has long been known to be a problem, Poland deserves to be damned.

Before you lecture Poland on child abuse because of a scumbag from UK, have a little moment of reflection on the 150,000 children that were institutionally abused by the British government. It took that government around 50 years, in some cases, to even admit the wrongdoing.

Thankfully, you are there and it looks like you will make sure to warn Poles that your compatriots are of a country (especially England) with a very [education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000970/osr28-2010.pdf] sad record of child abuse. So the hope is that Poland will catch up with relevant laws much faster than the Brits did.
OP delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Apr 2011 #45
So what good is that CRB check in UK if it's not adhered to?

Indeed. That's why any system must be simple and easy to adhere to. The UK has sadly gone down the road of tedious over-zealous checking - which doesn't work either, as people are now becoming too reliant on the checks and not doing their own homework. All too often, I've seen "he's got a valid CRB, he can't be a paedophile" or worse - "she's female".

Before you lecture Poland on child abuse because of a scumbag from UK, have a little moment of reflection on the 150,000 children that were institutionally abused by the British government.

Won't catch me arguing. The UK (and Irish) legacy of child abuse, particularly by Catholic institutions but not limited to them is one of the most sad and shocking tales in recent times.
Harry
20 Apr 2011 #46
So what good is that CRB check in UK if it's not adhered to?

You seem to have somehow missed the part of that article which states "As a result, the nursery manager and deputy manager have been suspended pending a thorough investigation." As you've apparently had a good look, perhaps you could tell us what the result of the thorough investigation was.

Of course, in Poland the nonce would have faced no checks at all. Pity you somehow overlooked that fact.

Thankfully, you are there and it looks like you will make sure to warn Poles that your compatriots are of a country (especially England) with a very sad record of child abuse.

I've been doing something. What have you been doing? Other than spewing out racist abuse of course.

So the hope is that Poland will catch up with relevant laws much faster than the Brits did.

Well done, you've finally got the point: Poland needs to learn from the mistakes of others. But sadly it is not.

Out interest, a friend of mine is covering this story for UK media: it seems that this bloke had access to teenage girls in the changing room...
OP delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Apr 2011 #47
it seems that this bloke had access to teenage girls in the changing room...

Mindblowing.

Even if they didn't conduct a criminal records check - what the hell were they doing allowing him access there?!

That's a terrible thing to say about Serbs. You should apologize for this anti-Serbian slur.

You do realise that Serbs have a terrible reputation in Europe as a whole, especially for those little acts of genocide and for being friendly with Russia?

but its good for Poland not to let other NATO countries take Poland for granted.

And what exactly can Poland do about it? She doesn't have the money to defend herself, NATO is about the only option there is.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
20 Apr 2011 #48
"As a result, the nursery manager and deputy manager have been suspended pending a thorough investigation."

The case of the Brit in Poland is also being investigated.

As you've apparently had a good look, perhaps you could tell us what the result of the thorough investigation was.

Sure I could. The investigation proved that the British CRB checks regulations can be spotty.

I've been doing something. What have you been doing?

To start with, I haven't been covering for underage girls having alcohol next to me.

Mindblowing.

Even if they didn't conduct a criminal records check - what the hell were they doing allowing him access there?!

From a certain perspective, especially that of a Brit, it may seem mindblowing indeed, but what a lot of Poles find more mindblowing is how the heck would one even think about doing this kind of thing. A different mindset. You are used to the sad realities, Poles are just beginning to learn about them.

Go read the verdicts of the international court and then we'll talk about Serbian rapists and murderers.

Do you mean the same court that was shying from investigating the Kosovar murderers who harvested human organs from captured Serbs?
Are you also referring to the same actions on the part of Serbs that started AFTER, not before, NATO started bombing Serbian bridges, hospitals and TV stations? It's not even a secret anymore that Serbia was torn apart because they weren't really feeling like brown nosing Americans. Sadly, people's memory is good only for the duration of an average episode of some stupid TV sitcom.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
20 Apr 2011 #49
I'm amazed that some folk use any excuse for a bit of international name-calling.

It is a valid question to ask about how "every" report about a crime is somehow turned against Poland, but that wasn't really point here. The point was to highlight the weakness in the system in Poland... Yes, UK has flaws, huge flaws, but it has acknowledged that there is a problem which needs to be addressed. The Polish system does not seem to have done that. Plain and simple.

Personally, I like the fact that a certain amount of common-sense is still alive in Poland (unlike UK) and parents are still able to let their kids live happily without the idea there is a paedo behind every tree. However, that there seems to be little use of safeguards within the system in this day and age is worrying, and just sitting back, name calling at Britain because of a past history is a little childish... are people content to let this kind of thing happen again and again just because of what Britain did 50 years ago?
chichimera 1 | 186
20 Apr 2011 #50
Poland hasn't bothered to introduce a system of checks that some people have been calling for for years.

I don't know any of those some people. Another thing is, the checks in for example the UK - how effective they are? Sadly their main contribution is creating the burdensome atmosphere in which every adult male (and sometimes female too) feels suspected of being a pedophile. While in hiding the real abuse is covered up by authorities

holliegreig.info

It seems to me that all that counts here in the West are appearances of political correctnes. Nobody cares what the truth is.

Grow up, it's a perfectly valid point that he is raising

I'm a grown up. That's why I don't hold on to the illusion that any government cares about protecting anybody apart from their own affairs.
Harry
20 Apr 2011 #51
The investigation proved that the British CRB checks regulations can be spotty.

As opposed to the Polish checks, which are not at all spotty: because they do not exist at all.

A different mindset. You are used to the sad realities, Poles are just beginning to learn about them.

And why are they only beginning to learn? Because they do not listen to the voices which have for years been warning about the problem!

Sadly, people's memory is good only for the duration of an average episode of some stupid TV sitcom.

Hence Poles forgetting the lessons learned from British children being murdered.

the checks in for example the UK - how effective they are?

More effective than the ones in Poland: because in Poland there are none!
OP delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Apr 2011 #52
Child molesting is nothing new in Poland - I know someone who runs a foundation dealing with child abuse, and sexual abuse by guardians isn't unknown here. She was also telling me some terrifying stories of how sexual abuse was acceptable within the family during II RP times - so really, nothing new.

Don't forget, the attitude that "Children should be seen and not heard" is still strong in Poland.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
20 Apr 2011 #53
If this bloke does turn out to have past form in the UK, yes: it most certainly will have happened

No it most certainly happened because a British pervert decided to molest some girls. Your statement is ridiculous unless you can prove that Poland's not bothering to introduce a more stringent vetting process somehow sexually aroused this man towards these girls.
Stu 12 | 522
20 Apr 2011 #54
Harry, wouldn't you agree that it would be better to always have 2 people in charge of a group. Wouldn't that make it less likely for someone to even try something?

And wouldn't you agree that it is incredibly difficult to vet foreigners anyhow? As you've probably heard or read, we have this case of a Latvian national who has confessed to abusing more than 80 children (bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11981734). Before he came to the Netherlands, he worked in Germany where he was convicted of possessing child pûrnography. Yet there was no contact between the German and Dutch police. Maybe, if the Dutch police had known, all this could have been prevented.

The German police claim that they are not allowed to pass on information to other police forces (I don't know whether this is true or not).
Harry
20 Apr 2011 #55
Sadly we can't discuss Poland's policy of vetting people who work with children: because Poland has no such policy.
chichimera 1 | 186
20 Apr 2011 #56
Sadly we can't discuss Poland's policy

Oh, really?
Strange... I asked you earlier to discuss the effectiveness of the UK policy - you ignored that and keep on discussing the non-existence of Poland's policy..
OP delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Apr 2011 #57
Strange... I asked you earlier to discuss the effectiveness of the UK policy

It is effective - but the problem is that it's *too* effective - people (especially men) are now staying clear of working with children, especially as one "paedo" accusation can ruin your career. The dearth of men in primary teaching is somewhat of a scandal - and almost certainly contributes to the amount of bad behaviour seen by boys in primary school.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
20 Apr 2011 #58
The German police claim that they are not allowed to pass on information to other police forces (I don't know whether this is true or not).

Co operation between Europes police forces has been going on for a long time....
Stu 12 | 522
20 Apr 2011 #59
I know ... but there was this geezer who claimed that he was not allowed to take up the matter with his Dutch colleagues. I found it strange when I saw it at the time, but I can't imagine the guy just says such things only to cover his six.
Harry
20 Apr 2011 #60
I asked you earlier to discuss the effectiveness of the UK policy

Here's your discussion: the British policy must be more effective than the Polish one, because Britain has a policy and Poland does not have one. Any questions?

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