How will BREXIT affect the immigrants in UK and Poland.

@Spiritus

Again, in the long run, there's neither the "liberal path" nor "the right-wing conservative" path, but instead, the humane path! All nations must seriously and thoroughly re-examine their ideologies as to what makes for the universally contented and truly happy society, as well as who should make up that society.

Even if neighbors dislike the increased presence of darker-skinned, non-native German-speaking Muslims in their midst, there should no reason to act out, with blatant hatred or violence or both. Here is where churches along with synagogues must play a role, distasteful, perhaps avoidable, as these societal changes may be perceived, in social and religious outreach in order that fellow Austrians see that G_d doesn't discriminate based on race, color or creed.

The liberal intellectual "straitjacket" as she'd sometime referred to is no less toxic than the rabidly reactionary cloak of invulnerability.

@Lyzko

There is no acting out. Those people do not belong in European society, and it has nothing to do with their skin color. Their cultures are antithetical to contemporary liberal values, they hate everything about our western civilization. They curse our laws and our customs, while going on the public dole.

Under International Law, you are to seek refuge in the FIRST SAFE COUNTRY that you enter. There is no stipulation that says you get to go the country of your choosing, or the country with the best public benefits. They should be grateful to be safe from war, AND they should REPATRIATE at the cessation of hostilities.

This liberal tree hugger nonsense has GOT TO END. You people are literally fueling the rise of far-right politics in Europe, and we do NOT NEED THAT, so it is time to wise up with importing people who literally hate us into our societies. Instead of doubling down on stupid like Frau Merkel, we need to chart the path that the European electorates across the continent have shown they want. They WANT nation-states, and they WANT borders to be controlled. They certainly do not want to be lectured by limousine liberal MEP's who tell you that you need to accept people with 7th century ideologies that hate you, whilst they live behind their gated communities, armed guards, up-armored vehicles, and inside a security envelope. They certainly don't need to worry about getting gang raped or groped by people who don't believe women have the right to say no.

There's a difference between what you glibly term "liberal tree huggers" vs. out-and-out Neo-Nazis! Once the Jews were demonized throughout Christian Europe. today, it's the Muslims. tomorrow, perhaps transgender multi-racial children.

Calling a halt now, makes enlightening the rest of a recalcitrant population easier tomorrow.

@Lyzko On this point I am not disagreeing with you.

On a moral level we are all human beings and we should all get along, respect our neighbours and fellow citizens, integrate with people of other cultures etc etc. I would genuinely love to see the town and country I live in to operate at this level but the reality is sadly different.

I know I am repeating myself from other threads but showing tolerance and respect to a specific community who themselves are religiously and culturally hard-wired to be intolerant of people who do not share their faith is a recipe for disaster.

Cultural jihad is playing out right here and right now albeit mostly by stealth.

Yes, and despite my pleas for tolerance, I am the first to admit that Merkelmania allowed the Syrians into Germany in the first place, never as much as allowing for a general European plebiscite so that the CITIZENS, rather than simply Germany or Bruxelles should decide for everybody else:-)

@Lyzko

This is a fallacious argument Lyzko. You're preaching your own version of leftism, and if I read your post right, you are trying to conflate people who don't agree with your world view on immigration as "Neo-Nazi's?" I am actually asking you to clarify what you said, not trying to editorialize what you said, I hope you understand.

Further to my point. While professing that Europeans should 'tolerate' people who hate their culture, seek to change and impose their own perverted 7th century morality on them; I don't see anyone lecturing the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Papua New Guineans, Ecuadorians, Hondurans, on how they should accept 160,000 Syrian refugees and be tolerant. It is somehow ok for Japan and Korea to have a homogeneous society. However, it's not ok for Poland to be homogeneous? It's not ok for Austria to be homogeneous? No of course, the "white devil" can't have a homeland, and to suggest otherwise means of course that you're a Neo-Nazi, bigot, islamophobe, xenophobe, <insert bombastic label to shut down any rational discussion of immigration policy and its deleterious effects.>,

SigSauer, economics always dictates policy! Were the countries you mention either as large or as well off as major industrial (above all, CAPITALIST!!) societies, such as the US, Germany, Sweden etc. which clearly are no longer strictly socialist nations as they once were pre-Bush, I'm certain that South Korea and China would be forced by sheer necessity to allow, if not exactly "welcome" migrants in in order to fill their workforce.

Your argument though doesn't take these differences into account, for my money!

Actually the Merkel refugees are 70 to 80 % non-Syrian (I'm deliberately undestimate the number of non-Syrians).

It doesn't and It won't. No matter how long totalitarian psychopaths are going to rant about it. The whole "resettlement thing" is basically dead. We killed it. Get over that.

@Atch

Poland has taken over ONE MILLION REFUGEES since 2014. 1.1 million Ukrainians actually. What other country in the EU has taken 1 million refugees besides Germany? Why should they take more? Poles have to share in the insecurity, vehicle attacks, concert bombings, and rapes like the rest of Europe? Have to really spread that misery out evenly among member states right. Guess what, Poland is a SOVEREIGN COUNTRY, a NATION-STATE. I know that really chaps the ass of you f***ing statists in the European Union, who have absolute contempt to notion of nation-states, but that is a fact. Here's an idea Atch, you want these refugees so badly, you clear out a few rooms in your house and let them move in with you, ok?

@Lyzko
Really Lyzko? Can we dispense with the histrionics please? No one is committing genocide against these refugee/migrant groups. They would not be in a position to be persecuted however, if they stayed in their country, OR if they followed INTERNATIONAL LAW and taken refuge in the FIRST SAFE COUNTRY they reached, in many cases Turkey.

@Tacitus
Right, whether they were Syrian or North-African, and I'm not sure how you could know their nationality since the majority of them were not arrested and brought to justice, but anyway, that is inconsequential; all it does is exemplifies my point that these people and their culture, are incompatible with contemporary liberal values and Western society.

False. Poland has accepted approx. 6000 refugees as this article points out: ft.com/content/aeda9ebe-3afa-11e7-ac89-b01cc67cfeec



Those who were arrested/suspected paint a very clear picture. This is also important because Syrians are genuine refugees who might stay permanently, whereas less than 1% of the North Africans qualify for asylum. Those who have a claim for asylum are less likely to commit crimes than the average citizen, since they don't want to spoil their chances.

dw.com/en/are-refugees-more-criminal-than-the-average-german-citizen/a-38371284


And as sovereign country it decided to join the EU with the implicite consent to adhere to its' rules.

@Tacitus

youtube.com/watch?v=-GbN4y2Y0yU

African immigrant's message to Germany

You are trying to point out a mere technicality in the number of processed and approved asylum applications. Tomorrow the Polish government could decide it will grant all 1 million Ukrainians currently working and residing within their borders asylum status. That would warm my heart, as it would take the wind out of the sails of statists like yourself who actually think that countries who voted for an ECONOMIC UNION, should have their own internal POLITICAL affairs dictated to it by MEP's, who are often times obscure political hacks and failures in their own countries. The level of arrogance and condescension in your posts is truly unparalleled.

I'm not sure why we are really even having this argument. You can certainly engage in these mental gymnastics, but the stark reality is that Poland will not take one single refugee from one of these countries with 7th century cultural ideologies. You could certainly continue to be an ideologue on this issue, but really there are two points on why you shouldn't. 1) Poland is not going to comply. so the union in continuing to try to push this hardship onto Poland is only going to make itself like impudent to the rest of the member states. 2) As I stated previously, these policies are doing nothing to stem the rise of far-right politicians in Europe. We are all doomed if you think that in the last 2 years people are suddenly 'more racist' or 'more xenophobic' than they were 2 years ago. I liken this to the way people view large corporations, well prices have gone up because of the "greed on wall street." As if that is some sort of variable, when in fact greed is a constant.

I take significant issue with this world view because it has a sort of arrogance attached to it, that says to just 'shut up,' because you are not 'enlightened' like ME, you just don't know enough about the subject like ME. Really it is virtue signalling of the highest order, and to be honest people don't appreciate it. I know that leftists are accustomed to getting away with this behavior when they speak to people who aren't very well educated on these topics, and they throw out some buzz words and try to assert some ostensible superiority over that person.

If you want to engage in constructive dialogue about these issues, I would really enjoy that, as you are at least well informed in your own regard. We can at least address some of these points on their merits, rather than just saying "this is the decision, you little Polish people will like it!" (I'm not Polish by the way).

No. What Poland is doing is refusing to honour an agreement made by the previous government. An opt-out is something decided at the policy making stage and should have been negotiated by the previous government when they had the opportunity but what they did instead was to break their word which they had given to three other countries that they would vote with them, against resettlement of migrants. That's why Poland was given a quota of migrants/refugees to settle - because they agreed to it. As you like to point out, that's how politics work. Governments inherit difficulties from their predecessors and those situations have to be dealt with appropriately. What PIS should have done is accepted the original figure agreed but refused to take any more.


Why is it that anybody who criticizes PIS is 'far left'? Anyway, there's a contradiction here. If the EU is far left then why did Poland join it at all?? Just for the money and trade. Well it doesn't work that way. If present-day Poland doesn't want to adopt EU policies then Poland should leave. PIS should simply explain to its supporters that membership of a far left multi-cultural, secular alliance like the EU undermines all that Poland stands for and is incompatible with Polish values.


Well in that case don't think about living in Poland because you certainly won't get that under PIS or any other far right government.


Yes exactly. Authoritarian and totalitarian regimes, right or left wing, start with political parties and usually 'strong leaders' who rise to power on a wave of euphoria and popular support at a time when countries are facing challenges. Such parties are clever enough to sense the public mood and pander to it. Then once they get themselves into power..........well we know how it goes. The public who elected them will eventually end up sitting in their jails and detention centres for 'anti-government' activities. I think Europeans of the 21st century somehow have an idea that it can't happen again, but it certainly can. The one thing Poland lacks is a charismatic leader. Duda is rather bland and many people, even PIS supporters, view Kaczyński with a degree of caution and dislike. However Kaczyński has a lot of power behind the scenes and Poland is rapidly reaching a point where PIS won't need much public support to remain in government. The mechanisms are being put in place to ensure that they stay there.

@Atch

Fortunately, international relations is characterized by chaos, and countries act in their interests and they do what they can get away with. Short of invading Poland, I don't see a situation where Poland will honor that agreement, much to the chagrin of radical left statists.

Your last point is PRECISELY the reason that European politicians need to change course and abandon the open borders, forced multiculturalism (which is a proven failure). They will continue to fuel the rise of the far-right by trying to stick by these policies. At least as we can see in Austria, a centrist politician has decided to co-opt some of the platform of the right in order to win an election, and placate at least some of the electorate calling for extreme measures that are rather unpalatable for everyone.

They could have also agreed pending explicit negotiations on the details, perfectly within their rights and the results would have been similar because Germany and France have no idea themselves.

But JK is a big baby who throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way.

@Atch, what began as a ragamuffin movement by an ill-educated loudmouth eventually turned into the Second World War!!

Sp much for "histrionics":-)

So no european government can ever prioritize the need of citizens over random migrants who crash the borders!

Selectivity. my friend. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Doesn't really matter anyway. Poland hasn't taken in any migrants forced upon it since 2015 despite all of EU's threats and has no plans to in the future. Even when they took in the few under PO - half of them left almost immediately anyway for Germany to take advantage of their welfare system. Polish people don't want it and the people's will and desires are more important than an unelected commissar's and Merkel's opinions.

Poland is helping people on the ground mainly through charities like Caritas in these areas as it is far cheaper and a far better long term solution than having millions of people leave from ME and Africa and settle in a totally different society. We cannot take all these people in from Africa and ME - there are millions that want to come and there is simply no way Europe could manage that. Nonetheless, the leftists will push for that to dilute Europe's demographics, push for no borders, force multiculturalism upon all Europeans, and to increase their voting bloc.

If Merkel didn't open the door to people from God knows where we they even all come from wouldn't be in this mess. She invited them, she can keep them. 75% of the Polish people are not interested in accepting migrants from ME and Africa. Our politicians back us up in this regard because they know how sensitive of an issue it is. We don't want Islamic terror in our country. It's not a price worth paying. If it comes down to it we'd rather pay the 2 bil EU fine - 50 EU a Pole to be relieved of any obligations of migrant quotas. That was the only thing the EU threatened us with as a direct consequence of not accepting migrants. That was months ago, almost a year and it has since fizzled out since so many other countries are also standing up and saying no - we won't put our country's safety and western liberal society in jeopardy.

@mafketis

No Mafketis, these people LOATHE the idea of the nation-state, and want to destroy it. They don't believe that states exist to serve their CITIZENS first. They have open contempt for the idea of national sovereignty, and to them 'patriotism' is a f***ing punchline to a joke.

Open border DON'T work, this is true! But why punish the innocent, the honest opportunity seekers along with the guilty, the leaches, low lives and criminal types who would indeed do harm to the country??

Dealing with difficult populations is, well, difficult! However, is a return to exterminationist policies any better?!

If you illegally cross a boarder, pay a smuggler (oftentimes people linked to Al-Qaeda or other terror groups - especially those operating in the deserts in Niger, Libya, etc.), or fail to obtain a proper visa from the countries you are crossing through, you are committing a crime. So no, these people are not innocent. If they are indeed refugees, they're supposed to register at the FIRST SAFE country they arrive at - not wait till they're in their chosen WELFARE STATE.

Most of the people who come are low lives - uneducated, unskilled young men. Estimates give a figure of 20% or less as families. Most have little to offer a developed western society besides menial labor - which would be fine if they actually did that but instead they prefer to go on welfare in places like Germany and Sweden since its higher than any salary they'd get back home. A few end up working in agriculture in places like Greece, Italy, etc. - usually if they ran out of money and simply need to save up to make it to their ultimate destination - more often than not the welfare states of Germany or Sweden. If there was a competency test given to people before they could become EU citizens it would weed out a lot of undesirables. Europe has no problem accepting engineers, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, students, families, etc. What we don't need is hundreds of thousands of young uneducated men with nothing to do who loiter about and are bored so they start getting into things like crime, rape, extremism, etc. A lot of these people don't even have documents so not only do we have no clue who they really are but we can't even deport them because their home country won't accept them without an ID.


We have enough problems inside of our country and continent to deal with. The age of slavery and colonization is over (except for in places like Mauritania). There's no excuse why these people can't build their country up. If Poland, S. Koreans, Japan, China, hell even N. Korea managed to rebuild their country which was totally obliterated during the Korean War (and up until the 80s was wealthier than S Korea), they can do it too. Hell drill for some oil or mine for some gold and diamonds instead of sitting in a mud hut waiting for a Red Cross truck to drive by to give you food.

Even worse, now HIV infection is skyrocketing in Europe. Libyan authorities state that roughly 15% of the migrants they catch have diseases - in which case they immediately deport them since Libyan law doesn't allow for people with HIV to obtain a visa. Well, think of how many HIV infected migrants made it across. With the skyrocketing levels of rape that haven't been seen in Europe since WW2 that is a very scary thing.

Nearly four out of every ten people with HIV in the European Economic Area (EEA) is a migrant to the country in which they are diagnosed, a recent report by the Spanish Centre for Epidemiology shows.

[aidsmap.com/Four-in-ten-people-diagnosed-with-HIV-in-Europe-are-migrants/page/2978799/

The proportion of migrants living with HIV in Europe reportedly vary from one percent in Romania to 75 percent in Sweden.
Sweden also has one of the highest proportions of late diagnoses - mainly because a high number of people diagnosed in Sweden are migrants.
Oh what do you know - a country with stricter border controls has less HIV infected migrants... hmmmm....
hivplusmag.com/treatment/2017/2/20/europe-seeing-vast-growth-hiv-positive-migrants

Do we really want potentially HIV infected young male migrants running around Poland groping and raping Polish women? (sub-Saharan Africans still make up the majority - from hivplusmag.com)

Sweden took them in - now they have terror, new crime ridden muslim majority areas popping up everyday, skyrocketing rape cases, way more HIV cases, women are scared to walk around alone, have to spend money to rent a cruise ship to house migrants because there's not enough housing for everyone, they take in ISIS terrorists and 'rehabilitate' them - well Poland wants no part in this lunacy.

Who agreed to it? previous gov after they lost an election or just before it, they had no right to do it, it was dirty play. That for one. I could put here again point that counterweight and annihilate your arguments but what for? We both know that you don't care about argument, logic, reason and all that. You are a rabid Maoist radical with agenda. A female version of Harry. People like you should be locked in cadges and show to the public only with a warning - A Double Dutch Commie.


Well, in the context it makes you a traitor ( if you are a Polish citizen) or undesirable alien (if you are foreigner in Poland) and in both case a cultist of the neo-Marxist cult.


Dude, You do have the balls of brass, brazenly talking in here about distinction between refugees and economic migrants (the second option: you are plainly stupid or you think that you are talking to dummies and can get away with it.)

Dude, your lovely Merkel and your wonderful gov insisted for almost two years that ALL illegal immigrant on route to Germany and already in Germany are ...kid you not - refugees.

In fact even today those people have their status shifted by the German officials to and fro. If that suit German gov they're refugees and if not they are economic migrants.

By the same token Ukrainians in Poland are either economic migrants or refugees. The fact that 6000 of them had been granted a refugee status tell you that at the last Poland apply international law. Contrary to the Germany gov that follows its authoritarian impulses and breaks the law with impunity.

@Ironside


You are either misinformed or lying here. Merkel never claimed that all people reaching Germany were refugees. In fact she stated already in September 2015 that only those who suffer from political prosecution and are fleeing from a warzone have any claim for political asylum. Something the English speaking press failed to draw attention to.


Another lie or misconception.


Another objectively wrong statement. When did Germany break the law with impunity? Poland is of course violating European law by not honoring the refugee deal.

Is this how you like to argue? With lies and wrong accusations?


Poland cares currently for 6000 refugees from the Ukraine. Not more, no less. All the others have not been acknowledged as refugees and are thus not entitled to any help by the Polish state.

@Tacitus

Alright I'd really like it if we can dispense with the veiled nonsense here. Can you just tell me what your agenda is? What country are you from? and what are your politics?

I'm asking this because I really need to wrap my head around this position. It's hard for me to understand how someone can hold such disdain for their own people. How can you value other people over your own fellow countrymen and citizens? Look, the deal may have been agreed upon initially, but the point is that we've seen the results of accepting these people in Sweden, in Germany, in France, and now other countries have had a prizm into the future and are saying, ok we made that deal, but we are not going to put our citizens in danger. If your only argument to the contrary is "well you agreed to it!," you're going to have to come with a much stronger argument I think to convince anyone they should commit fratricide on their own country. Excuse me if I am wrong in my assumptions, but your posts sound like you are cheerleading the destruction of your own culture. Why in gods name would you ever take such a position? I'm not being rude, I genuinely want to understand why someone holds these views.

@Lyzko

Really? I mean I'll give you a ton of credit for having the balls to say something like. You admit they're difficult populations and then just kind of throw your hands up in the air and say "well they're difficult!"... The point is WE SHOULDN'T BE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THEM! Nations exist to protect CITIZENS first and foremost!!!

This is similar to the kind of things I see back in the U.S. when illegal immigrants get on CNN and start critiquing US immigration policy. These are people who HAVE NO RIGHTS under our US constitution. As an illegal immigrant you DONT GET A SAY IN OUR POLITICS, THAT IS ONLY FOR CITIZENS! The gaul it would take for me to go to a foreign country and then start MEDDLING in their politics and advocating for change to benefit MY position as a CRIMINAL. In any SANE non-cucked country, I would be deported before the damn segment ended.

well if you think that is true, your naivety is startling.

@SigSauer


You aren't. As explained before, refugees from Syria are no more likely to become criminal than others. Going that logic, you would have to ban immigration alltogether.


I don't know where you are from, and like you I don't want to make any assumptions, but it seems to me that your assumptions are based on a very distorted picture of the migrant situation, probably based on media coverage. I have noticed this while studying the media coverage of the refugee crisis in the British tabloids that most of them paint a completely exaggerated or even wrong picture of the situation here. Starting with the supposed content of Merkel's "invitation" in 2015. I recently talked with a few people from Sweden who told me something similar about the press coverage of their countries.

I mean honestly, two weeks ago an American student asked my professor whether or not it was safe for him to travel to Germany "because of the terrorists". Just after an American had killed almost 60 people, several times the number of Germans who have died so far because of Islamic terrorism.

There are certainly challenges here, but none that would qualify as "existential" to our culture. And a few thousand refugees would certainly be no threat to Poland's culture. This is just something eurosceptic parties are using as a pretext of rallying against the EU. By doing that they are betraying everything European values stand for (rule of law, morality).I just wished they would stop pretending to adhere to christian values at least.

@Tacitus

We don't want the unnecessary risk of inviting Islamic terrorists and radicals. This is a safety issue and not worth the risk to achieve a merit badge of tolerance from mutti Merkel. Besides, the vast majority of poles don't want them. As the famous saying goes - nasz kraj, nasze zasady roughly meaning our country, our way (or our decisions/our standards)

She invited them in (if you're an economic migrant, you can't stay long term; we have to help refugees whether we want to or not). Besides actions speak louder than words. She did absolutely nothing to stem the flow of african and me migrants the majority of whom, uncoincidentally, chose Germany as their primary destination.

Also, over 20k people a year die from Islamic terror. The religion of peace.com keeps a very accurate count and details each incident. 700 killed just from oct 14 to Oct 20. No other religion or ideology has a fraction of the body count in present times like Islam does.