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Poland blocks any action on climate change


Dougpol1 27 | 2,675
6 Dec 2018  #151
American consumers..... lots of talk of the Chinese and the Indians being the main problem, but we industrialised nations need to step up.



Atch 17 | 2,741
6 Dec 2018  #152
breathing related conditions, asthma, cancer etc as a result of the toxic fumes and smoke produced by burning coal.

In Poland it's around 50,000 deaths per year attributed to pollution related illness. I personally can't open the windows sometimes in winter because of the fumes (I'm in Warsaw). I can taste them. And it's not just coal. I have a neighbour who is not poor by any means and he regularly burns rubbish. On the air particle index, acceptable air quality is up to 50, today in Warsaw city centre it was 158 but there are parts of Poland where it hits 300 at times. It's scandalous.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
6 Dec 2018  #153
"We wont accept a drop in living standards"

I'm not talking about me (my living standards are pretty low key (I don't have or want a car for example). But by and large people don't want a drop in living standards for some unspecified future reward and most of the world wants first world living standards.

I'm relatively sure that clean technology will take off and solve most of these problems, but if it doesn't then small scale efforts and a handful of special taxes won't make up for that.
cms neuf - | 838
6 Dec 2018  #154
How is fuel tax regressive? It hits rich people harder - they have more cars, bigger engines, live further from town and are less likely to use the metro or bus
dolnoslask 5 | 2,462
6 Dec 2018  #155
It hits rich people harder

No it doesn't it hits key workers the hardest people like fireman, nurses policemen,cleaners,bar staff, shop workers etc who need to get to work sometimes at odd hours where public transport is not always an option, typically these people cannot afford to have properties within the cities they work in.

Rich folk have company drivers and helicopters and pilots that are paid for by their company, they only pay the benefit in kind the company funds the rest, weekend in Paris no problem call the pilot.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
6 Dec 2018  #156
How is fuel tax regressive? It hits rich people harder -

Read this: theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/24/paris-fuel-tax-protest-macron-france-poverty

Fuel costs are a proportionately bigger share of living expenses for the rural working class (who need cars in France because public transport has been eliminated) and the proposed fuel tax would hit them disproportionately hard.
cms neuf - | 838
6 Dec 2018  #157
Of course its proportionally more - just like taxes on booze, cigarettes and chocolate. Thats because some prople have less money. But like all of those it is a tax based on personal choices - not the same as a compulsory tax on income.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
6 Dec 2018  #158
But like all of those it is a tax based on personal choice

apparently you haven't been paying attention, rural france does not have enough public transportation so car usage isn't "personal choice" (I guess it is, the other option is to not work and go on welfare....)
cms neuf - | 838
6 Dec 2018  #159
Then they can use their horse and cart !
mafketis 17 | 6,902
6 Dec 2018  #160
Let them eat renewable energy!
dolnoslask 5 | 2,462
6 Dec 2018  #161
Then they can use their horse and cart !

At least you made me laugh.

But seriously the rich wouldn't give a damn if the fuel price doubled , it's those who need to travel distances to work who are hit the hardest..
Dougpol1 27 | 2,675
6 Dec 2018  #162
I'm not talking about me

No - you are never personal maf, so I guessed it was the "Royal" we..:)
The thing about the idea of excusing doing little because advanced tech will find a way in the future (the American way is raised GDP funding R and D) is going to leave things a little late - llke a Brexit for the planet.

We need a world wide referundum on whether to panic or do nothing of consequence, as before!
TheOther 5 | 3,759
6 Dec 2018  #163
Then there should be no need for regressive punitive taxes that harm the working class.

Climate change will not distinguish between rich and poor. Since there are a lot more average folks than multi millionaires, it's unavoidable to hurt the working and middle class.

China will do that faster...

So what you're saying is that we should ignore the environmental destruction altogether and just blame China? Someone has to start to make some sacrifices, and it's certainly much easier for rich Europeans and Americans than for some dirt poor third worlders.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
7 Dec 2018  #164
Someone has to start to make some sacrifices, and it's certainly much easier for rich Europeans and Americans

But they're not the ones being asked, it's the not rich at all working classes that are being asked to make sacrifices in France....

But for your edification I'll make a suggestion or two

300% tax on airplane tickets,
500% tax on privately owned planes
300% tax on third cars (for one family)
300% tax on cruise ship tickets
TheOther 5 | 3,759
7 Dec 2018  #165
Yes, let's tax these luxury items, I agree with you. But let's also tax the biggest polluters like coal fired power plants, the oil industry and regular car owners. The latter simply to force them into buying electric vehicles. And expand public transport to rural areas. It has been done before and worked.
Chemikiem 5 | 1,596
9 Dec 2018  #166
I suspect that the real reason is that the government are protecting the coal industry to save jobs,

I agree with you. Let's face it, no government is going to want to close mines and put people out of work, it didn't exactly go down well in the UK.

According to this article, Poland now has the worst air pollution in Europe:

thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/396103,Poland%E2%80%99s-air-pollution-worst-in-Europe-auditors

Although Duda seems to think that burning stuff other than coal is the problem. "May every single citizen think again before they heat their homes with trash or plastic," he stated in the article. I agree that this is also a big problem, but no mention of the burning of coal at all. Hmm. Plus, a couple of days before the climate conference, the deputy energy minister announed that a decision would be taken next year to build a new coal mine. I think it's safe to say that Poland is not giving up its coal industry no matter what the cost to health and the environment.

Also from that article, Duda said: "Climate protection is the concern of every household, every farm." In fact, it wasn't long before the climate change conference that the Polish government was calling for more trees to be planted worldwide to help combat carbon emissions. A bit ironic considering the decimation of huge swathes of the Białowieża forest. You really couldn't make this stuff up.
jon357 64 | 14,382
9 Dec 2018  #167
tax on

All except for the airline tickets, yes. Everything else should happen as a matter of course. Not that taxing cruise tickets would bring in much money in PL. I'd replace it with a tax on second homes, unoccupied properties and underused land. Vodka too, which is on the cheap side and causes societal damage.

no government is going to want to close mines and put people out of work,

I wish that had been the case back in South Yorkshire a few years ago. Having said that, it's much greener and cleaner now. A short term step in Poland could be to move more to smokeless fuel; the miners would keep their jobs, more would be created at the refining plants and we would see a clear improvement in a relatively short time.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
10 Dec 2018  #168
All except for the airline tickets, yes.

Especially airline tickets! The great majority of air travel is unnecessary (in terms of planetary survival). You're either serious or not.

Not that taxing cruise tickets would bring in much money in PL

This is more about preserving European heritage sights currently under threat by excessive numbers of giant ships full of carbon wasting tourists! Venice!
Ironside 47 | 9,574
10 Dec 2018  #171
How to recognize BS? When even jokes are not funny.

Another dogma mumbled by lefties retards about climate change. They don't understand science so they are left with their magical thinking. lol
Tacitus 2 | 864
10 Dec 2018  #172
People who do not understand science call it dogma.

When even jokes are not funny.

A look in the mirror is rarely funny.
kondzior 8 | 948
11 Dec 2018  #173
People who do not understand science call it dogma.

Yeah, counter the scientific data with a joke.
Talking to warmist is like playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon knocks over all the pieces, then it sh!ts on the board and then struts around like it won the game.
jon357 64 | 14,382
11 Dec 2018  #174
The great majority of air travel is unnecessary (in terms of planetary survival).

For some of us, with a foot in more than one country, it's very preferable to three day train journeys or sailing long-haul.

Venice

Absolutely. The residents there are right to be so angry. Not long ago in Lisbon, I was saddened to see vast floating hotels disgorging fat tourists from across the water right in the middle of the city.

Man-made climate change is the biggest threat to humanity right now. The fossil fuels used in the production of plastics are a particular worry. Even someth8ng as simple as restricting excessive packaging would make a difference.

If it isn't too late already.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
11 Dec 2018  #175
For some of us, with a foot in more than one country,

You are either willing to make sacrifices yourself or you're not....
jon357 64 | 14,382
11 Dec 2018  #176
sacrifices yourself

We'll all have to in the end. A three week journey home by ship is however a sacrifice too far, especially six times a year. There are other more practical sacrifices that can and should be made for the common good. Stopping eating meat produced by factory farming, not using (or hugely reducing) fossil fuels, and buying as few Chinese-made products as possible are a good start.

Banning private jets is a small thing, however since nobody really needs one, that is a good start too. Car engines above a very moderate size are not a neccessity, nor is the vast amount of disposable plastic used in the developed world; these should both be kept to a minimum.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
11 Dec 2018  #177
A three week journey home by ship is however a sacrifice too far, especially six times a year

There's no rational reason for a person to need to be on sight 6 times a year, not when there is skype. Even third world sh1tholes tend to have enough wit to keep internet connections going now.

Or, you're just using that old Polish logic: Other people should follow the rules, but my case is special....
TheOther 5 | 3,759
11 Dec 2018  #178
counter the scientific data with a joke.

No one takes the mambo jambo of climate change denying neanderthals serious. Go visit your medicine man and ask for some herbs. LOL!
jon357 64 | 14,382
11 Dec 2018  #179
There's no rational reason for a person to need to be on sight 6 times a year

Some roles couldn't work any other way.

Even third world sh1tholes

Never having been to a sh1thole (except maybe Tarchomin and Slough, I wouldn't know about internet in such places. Some things however can't be effectively (or legally) done online.

but my case is special...

Plenty of cases are very special indeed, and business/holifday flights are here to stay.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
12 Dec 2018  #180
Some roles couldn't work any other way.

then they should be well enough paid that the taxes shouldn't affect them, if just plane ticket taxes make the job too expensive then it's probably not so very, very necessary


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