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€80 billion for Poland new EU budget


Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
25 Nov 2012 #91
Your thoughts?

I think it's really sad to see leaders, who have no clue how to develop the country, except for asking for more foreign aid.

BTW all the naive, pro-EU Poles should read what a filthy french pig writes here. Enjoy your "European brothers and sisters" !
polonius 54 | 420
25 Nov 2012 #92
Why is it that the EU bankroll W. European farmers at a superior rate than those tilling the soil in emerging post-communsit or post-Soviet countries? I've heard that Denmark, which has a highly developed, high-yield farm sector, gets more money than backward Lithuania. Polish farmers also get less per hectare than those in Germany and France. That doesn't sound like solidarity, does it?
poland_
25 Nov 2012 #93
Polands receives 347% more than it contributes, she is the fourth largest receiver of EU funds in the EU27, it is time Poland looked at Czech and used them as an example:

guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union

Polonius the wonderful thing about the UK is we still have some media companies which still print fact.
polonius 54 | 420
25 Nov 2012 #94
Of course Poland is a net recipeint, in fact probably the largest net recipient of EU funds. My qeustion was why don't emerging countreis like Lithuania get at least as much per hectare as Denmark and Holland so they can catch up after years of Soviet mismanagement, backwardness and poverty?

Also, as regards EU budget cuts, why don't they start with themselves: slim down the structures, boot half the eurocratsd out of Brussels and halve the salaries of those that remain. Instead, before deciding that the last summit was a fiasco, European government heads feasted on gourmet delicaices and washed them down with wine costing £120 a bottle (according to the Globe).
Ironside 51 | 11,337
25 Nov 2012 #95
Your thoughts?

Only gov benefits from EU, its helps them remain in power.

Simply as that: Poland (government + citizens) have to understand that they cannot be sponsored by the West for ever and why should they???? If they want for instance extra metro lines and other infrustructures, they have to finance such expenses themselves (through tax and others).

Get real, Are you really saying that Poland is sponsored by the west? Take cold shower and if that doesn't help bash your head few time against a solid brick wall.

Aren't Poles ashamed to be seen as "beggars"? Why can't they have some pride?

What about you French farmer, did you communicate to them a fact they are beggars?

EU funds have avoided Poland going into recession

No boom - no recension! The EU funds - a good one!

Also, as regards EU budget cuts, why don't they start with themselves: slim down the structures, boot half the eurocratsd out of Brussels and halve the salaries of those that remain

That what the EU is all about, they are supporting each other i.e eurocrats.
jon357 71 | 20,789
25 Nov 2012 #96
Only gov benefits from EU

Anybody who drives on the roads, uses public transport, farms food or is in any way affected by the huge infrastructure funding (of which Poland is the largest net recipient) benefits.

Poland is sponsored by the west

Very much so.
LEICA 4 | 18
25 Nov 2012 #97
Western companies,banks supermarkets,vehicles, etc etc. Just think how much money leaves Poland and goes back to the western economy.
jon357 71 | 20,789
25 Nov 2012 #98
Or how much goes in due to those companies being there. After all, there wasn't exactly a thriving homegrown economy before.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
25 Nov 2012 #99
Anybody who drives on the roads, uses public transport, farms food or is in any way affected by the huge infrastructure funding (of which Poland is the largest net recipient) benefits.

Yep, so the government instead of actually doing something to improve the country, is getting away with "EU funds will solve the problem". We've seen how well it ended up in Southern Europe. Oh wait...

Personally I hope there will be huge cuts in EU budget.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
25 Nov 2012 #100
Anybody who drives on the roads, uses public transport, farms food or is in any way affected by the huge infrastructure funding

Really? Isn't Poland suppose to put on the table half of the sum and EU puts other half? I would say cut investment by half and vole - no EU funding is needed.

Farms food?Actually farmers are being pay not to produce any food.
What infrastructure and public transport? Do you think Poland couldn't afford those o her own?Think again!

(of which Poland is the largest net recipient) benefits.

at the moment ? Maybe she is maybe she isn't, Poland pay in as well and I haven't sees any reliable financial diagram which would explain all those issues giving real figures.

Anyway pro-EU propaganda stressed above everything else that being member of the EU will make @Poland economically on par with France or Germany - what is stopping them?

Very much so.

I will repeat myself for your benefit - Polish gov is sponsored by the west! Anything Poland got she paid for it, no free lunches. You forget that the price for EU membership was destroying Polish industry and opening Polish marked for international companies, nobody is doing it for charity.

After all, there wasn't exactly a thriving homegrown economy before.

For 15 years Poland was adjusting her economy to EU directives/ Anyway w2hat thriving economy is there now?
poland_
25 Nov 2012 #101
I haven't sees any reliable financial diagram which would explain all those issues giving real figures.

Have a look at this article guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union

You forget that the price for EU membership was destroying Polish industry

What industry. Please name me one functioning Polish industry which was destroyed after 2004?
Richfilth 6 | 415
25 Nov 2012 #102
Really? Isn't Poland suppose to put on the table half of the sum and EU puts other half? I would say cut investment by half and vole - no EU funding is needed.

This is one of the most astoundingly dense statements I've read in a long time. With that grasp of economics, no wonder you "think" Poland would be fine without the EU.

I suppose if we cut spending in half again, we'd all be in profit!

Whereas the reality is, for every zloty Poland puts into the EU, it gets 3.5zl back. So instead of 100km of highway, we'd only build 29km... which is really going to help.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
25 Nov 2012 #103
his is one of the most astoundingly dense statements I've read in a long time. With that grasp of economics, no wonder you "think" Poland would be fine without the EU.

Do you which to add something? Like your brilliant grasp of economic to explain why I'm wrong?
Richfilth 6 | 415
25 Nov 2012 #104
It's the same way was a company thinking "if we fire all our workers we won't have any costs, so we'll make 100% profit!"

Without subsidies, how is a farmer supposed to plough his field with half a tractor? How do schools teach with only half a textbook, or with half a classroom? Do we only build half a power station to power half the factories half the time? Sure, with the end result that workers get, you guessed it, half their pay!

*slow clap*
Ironside 51 | 11,337
25 Nov 2012 #105
What industry. Please name me one functioning Polish industry which was destroyed after 2004?

I said 15 years prior to 2004!
I could find few destroyed or taken over after 2004 but I do not keep its list ready. If I will ever collect the data I will remember your request.

Without subsidies, how is a farmer supposed to plough his field with half a tractor? How do schools teach with only half a textbook, or with half a classroom? Do we only build half a power station to power half the factories half the time? Sure, with the end result that workers get, you guessed it, half their pay!

So you are saying that Poland was an empty field before EU?
Investment on infrastructure,meaning building roads! You have money to build 10 000 kilometers of highways, the EU give monies on another 10 000 kilometers. Well without EU founds you can still build 10 000 kilometers of highways . Correct me if I'm wrong!

As for the rest of your examples = are you telling me that EU is funding everything in Poland?
Richfilth 6 | 415
25 Nov 2012 #106
Correct me if I'm wrong

Yes, Poland has money for SOME highways. Enough for 28% of them. But if the road from Warsaw to Berlin is a fixed length, which 28% do you build? Or Warsaw to Krakow, or Gdansk to Opole? Or should Poland decide which 28% of her citizens deserve government help (in the sense of improved infrastructure, better schools, more parks and libraries, farm subsidies, entrepreneurial grants - ALL things the EU subsidises) and the others can struggle on in poverty. Sorry Sanok, no new road for you; we only have enough money to pay for Suwalki, so all the South-East can carry on being unemployed because there are no industries down there (because there is no infrastructure to serve them).

Poland does NOT have the money to provide all those things for all its citizens. Maybe if it saved it could have them in 20 years time, and then Poland will be 20 years behind all the other countries, like it is now.

Of course the EU isn't doing this out of the kindness of its heart, but it's a win-win situation. Western states get a new market to sell their pointless stuff to, and Poland gets new industries, more jobs, and a better standard of living for the whole population, not just 28%.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
25 Nov 2012 #107
Yes, Poland has money for SOME highways. Enough for 28% of them.

I'm sure Poland could find money for more! Buying Expensive war planes and taking a part in the war is costly. As costly as selling out Polish owned companies and give bank sector into foreign hands.

so all the South-East can carry on being unemployed because there are no industries down there (because there is no infrastructure to serve them).

Depending on foreign investments is not a way to build prosperous economy. Foreign investments can only supplement local development.

and Poland gets new industries, more jobs,

Name few!
Richfilth 6 | 415
25 Nov 2012 #108
Name few!

Indesit, Opel, Fiat, Orange, T-Mobile, Kapsch, Continental, Tesco. All exist in Poland creating thousands of jobs. Or maybe Poland should concentrate on trying to produce Polski Fiats with Debica tyres in the competitive international market instead? Or maybe you think Spolem could operate on the kind of scale that would keep food prices low enough for the poorest. Or we'll build our own mobile phone networks, with tin cans and string.

There's an economy of scale here. Poland is a large country, both geographically and demographically, but not economically... not yet. But before you can grow your economy up to a point where everyone can live comfortably, healthily, with a good education and good prospects, you need a cash injection, and that's what the EU is for.

If you think Poland could just "find more money" then maybe you have some genius idea where from? 4% of GDP is a hell of a lot to pull out from under babcia's mattress. The cost of Poland's military is just under 2%, but I don't think you'd convince the voters to completely scrap the military structure and leave the nation utterly defenceless... would you?
zetigrek
25 Nov 2012 #109
Sorry to meddle in your discussion, I'm not up to date with the current affair in this thread but this caught my eye:

Or we'll build our own mobile phone networks, with tin cans and string.

That was lame.

Era, Idea, Plus, were the first gsm companies in Poland. Later Idea became Orange, Era - T-mobile, Plus is Plus.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
25 Nov 2012 #110
Era, Idea, Plus, were the first gsm companies in Poland. Later Idea became Orange, Era - T-mobile, Plus is Plus.
Why do you think that Poland would be nothing without foreign companies?

And now Virgin are coming too.

I don't think they would be nothing but competition is great for the public.

I got a swanky new phone for free, they halved my monthly bill and I get all kinds of offers from the other networks, it's great.
Richfilth 6 | 415
25 Nov 2012 #111
I don't think it would be nothing, but it certainly wouldn't be self-sufficient. With telecoms (the "lame" example) there is simply no way any one state can build a home-grown network in the current technological environment. Telecoms work on protocols, protocols are covered by patents, and patents are owned by multinational firms. There's no way around that. I have no doubt that Polish students and engineers could devise and build the technology themselves, but as soon as they released it they'd be infringing existing patents and they'd be sued to oblivion. The money involved in that industry is staggering, and is best demonstrated in this article:

guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/jul/02/google-pi-auction-bid

When you have Apple and Microsoft coming together as a consortium to outbid Google for patents, you have an idea of the sums involved; sums far higher than any WIG20 company could hope to spend on R&D.

I want Poland to grow, I want it to develop, and I want it to do so in a way that doesn't mimic how things are done in the West. But Poland simply does not have the chips to play the international business poker game; not without EU backing.
zetigrek
25 Nov 2012 #112
What industry. Please name me one functioning Polish industry which was destroyed after 2004?

May I reverse the question? Why the EU was widened with the new countries at all? What was to gain for the old EU?

With telecoms (the "lame" example) there is simply no way any one state can build a home-grown network in the current technological environment. Telecoms work on protocols, protocols are covered by patents, and patents are owned by multinational firms.

So please tell me what were Polska Telefonia Cyfrowa (Era), PTK Centertel (Idea) and Polkomtel (Plus)?
Lenka 3 | 3,065
25 Nov 2012 #113
Just in my area:
Big company with world-wide contracts-sold to Swedes. a couple of years ago.Still exists but the company that bought it has financial problems and we don't know what's going to happen-the biggest employer in the region.

Sugar factory-bought by German company and closed as soon as they could.They just got rid of their competition.
Dairy bought by German company and we don't know what's going to happen.For now all our local products have vanished from shops.

And this is just ONE town and not all companies,
I don't want to say that it's UE fault but don't tell me that there was no industry in Poland.
Richfilth 6 | 415
25 Nov 2012 #114
Question:

My I reverse the question? Why the EU was widened with the new countries? What was to gain for the old EU?

Answer:

Western states get a new market to sell their pointless stuff to

By tying a "poor" country like Poland or Bulgaria into the EU, you commit it to buying EU products, and refusing Chinese or American imports. You want it to grow, to be wealthy, but only with your help and not with others. That way, as the poor country becomes rich, the old EU countries stay rich as well. And with clever laws and legislation, you stop 27 countries fighting with eachother all trying to be best at everything, and you make each country do one thing well. France, you make the wine. Germany, you make the cars. UK, sell everyone a credit card. Denmark, make bacon. Poland... well, we'll see.
polonius 54 | 420
25 Nov 2012 #115
Someone on PF said that if the EU turned off the tap, Poland couldn't make a go of it. In that context an interesting and unusuallyl pro-Polish article appeared in

today’s German newspaper Welt am Sonntag. PAP quoted some excerpts which called Poland 'Germany’s strong neighbour' and France its 'weak neighbour'. The article refuted the claim that Poland got to where it is thanks to EU funds by saying that 'by 1995 Poland had trebled its real earnings and today EU funds account for only about one-seventh of the national budget... Over the past two centuries Poland’s dear neighbours prevented its development, but now Poles are doing what all Europeans do most eagerly – studying, working and buildings houses.” At the same time the paper referred to France as a country basking in its past achievements, but for quite some it hasn’t been doing too well in that department to mention only cafe au lait, democracy and unique-looking cars.'
Richfilth 6 | 415
25 Nov 2012 #116
So please tell me what were Polska Telefonia Cyfrowa (Era), PTK Centertel (Idea) and Polkomtel (Plus)?

Stuck in a limbo where they couldn't make their products any cheaper, and couldn't raise any more capital for investment. For a business, "surviving" in the sense of paying your bills every month is fine for a while, but sooner or later you need a new product, a better service or simply a cheaper offer. None of the companies you mentioned could offer that, which is why they got bought out. Even TP S.A is owned by France Telecom.

Even companies offering "the same old product" (meat, dairy, beer, haircuts) need money to replace their old and tired equipment. If they go to a bank and ask for a loan, the bank will ask "how will you grow my investment?" How do you reply? "Well, we were hoping to just do the same old thing we always did, you know". And the banker smiles politely, and says he'll call you back, which he never will.

Of course there are a few big companies in Poland - the world's largest copper producer is one of them. But it's senseless trying to isolate Poland and build its economy as an island.
zetigrek
25 Nov 2012 #117
Western states get a new market to sell their pointless stuff to

And if that's the answer why they suppose to want to reinforce Polish industries?

And with clever laws and legislation, you stop 27 countries fighting with eachother all trying to be best at everything, and you make each country do one thing well. France, you make the wine. Germany, you make the cars. UK, sell everyone a credit card. Denmark, make bacon. Poland... well, we'll see.

You see, they don't want Poland to produce anything. They want Poland to do the services only, not produce things, unless in foreign company factories.

Stuck in a limbo where they couldn't make their products any cheaper, and couldn't raise any more capital for investment. For a business, "surviving" in the sense of paying your bills every month is fine for a while, but sooner or later you need a new product, a better service or simply a cheaper offer. None of the companies you mentioned could offer that, which is why they got bought out. Even TP S.A is owned by France Telecom

You see, your initial post was different. In fact Polish companies set up the infrastructure for Polish gsm. Now you hedging the subject to avoid admitting you put your foot in the mouth with that statement.
Richfilth 6 | 415
25 Nov 2012 #118
They want Poland to do the services only, not produce things, unless in foreign company factories.

And is there a problem with that?

If you want a smaller example, read the history of the British Motoring Corporation. One company producing the SAME product under six different names, all selling to the same market, bankrupting itself. The EU is just a bigger version of that; one superpower (500m of the world's richest people) with 27 different factories all producing the same things and trying to compete with each other. It's a massive waste of resources, and business suicide. Germany builds the best cars; what's the point in a Polish company trying to make a competitor to Mercedes? Even if the product is good, the companies go into a price war until one goes bankrupt. Pointless, painful, and detrimental to the economy.

I'm not saying the EU is perfect (the amount of money French farmers get is outrageous and indefensible) but as a mechanism for Poland to grow into a really important nation, it's better than "going it alone".

EDIT:

You see, your initial post was different. In fact Polish companies set up the infrastructure for Polish gsm. Now you hedging the subject to avoid admitting you put your foot in the mouth with that statement.

I haven't edited anything in that post; I'm not sure what you're accusing me of.
zetigrek
25 Nov 2012 #119
And is there a problem with that?

Yes, services are not firm part of the business. They are first to bankrupt when people don't have money.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
25 Nov 2012 #120
I'm not saying the EU is perfect (the amount of money French farmers get is outrageous and indefensible) but as a mechanism for Poland to grow into a really important nation, it's better than "going it alone".

So what are talking political economy!
If Poland will not get a better deal in the EU then only choice for her would be growing into a really important nation outside the EU.


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