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€80 billion for Poland new EU budget


PennBoy 76 | 2,438    
29 Jun 2011  #1
The European Commission has proposed to the Polish 80 billion euros in the draft EU budget for 2014-2020 in the framework of cohesion policy. Poland is expected to remain the largest beneficiary of the EU budget.

According to preliminary information, Warsaw will be able to raise additional funds from the EU budget , reporting their energy and transport projects to be financed under the new , proposed in the draft budget Infrastructure Fund .

In 2007-2013 , under the current multi-annual budget , Poland was granted from the Cohesion Policy 67.3 billion ( 69 billion euros at constant prices of 2011).

tvn24.pl
delphiandomine 85 | 17,658    
29 Jun 2011  #2
The European Commission has offered Poland 80 billion in the draft EU budget for 2014-2020 under the cohesion policy. Poland is expected to remain the biggest beneficiary of the EU budget.

Ugh, far too much.

The cohesion policy makes sense when there's money to pay for things - but right now?
guesswho 4 | 1,293    
29 Jun 2011  #3
The European Commission has offered Poland 80 billion in the draft EU budget for 2014-2020 under the cohesion policy.

yep, something to be appreciated indeed.
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,438    
29 Jun 2011  #4
Ugh, far too much.

How much does Poland pay back in one way or another 1/3, 1/2?
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884    
29 Jun 2011  #5
i guess it "pays" to have a big brother sometimes.

one has to wonder......why does Poland need all that money? What if they didn't receive it....what would happen? Where are the most funds required? Pensions? Infrastructure? Education? Where is the shortage in Poland that necessitates 80 billion?
delphiandomine 85 | 17,658    
29 Jun 2011  #6
How much does Poland pay back in one way or another 1/3, 1/2?

Barely anything - around 2 billion a year, or around 12 billion over this timescale. Bear in mind that this is just cohesion funds - in other words, stuff designed to bring Poland in line with the West. It doesn't include all the other parts of EU funding.

one has to wonder......why does Poland need all that money? What if they didn't receive it....what would happen? Where are the most funds required? Pensions? Infrastructure? Education? Where is the shortage in Poland that necessitates 80 billion?

This money simply helps Poland to build stuff, really. If the money wasn't there, it's unlikely that many things would get built - especially giant works like water.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884    
29 Jun 2011  #7
delphiandomine wrote:

This money simply helps Poland to build stuff, really. If the money wasn't there, it's unlikely that many things would get built - especially giant works like water.

so what you're saying is that Poland's existence as a country is completely dependent on EU funds? without their "allowance" they'd be.....well.....
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,438    
29 Jun 2011  #8
Barely anything - around 2 billion a year, or around 12 billion over this timescale. Bear in mind that this is just cohesion funds - in other words, stuff designed to bring Poland in line with the West. It doesn't include all the other parts of EU funding.

Wow good.

i guess it "pays" to have a big brother sometimes.

It certainly does in this case. I'm sure the Belorussian leadership is scratching their heads thinking "why didn't we go with the west when we had the chance?" lol, they chose the wrong 'big brother' who now harasses them. BTW most of this money is coming from Germany so some on this forum give them a break, please.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,658    
29 Jun 2011  #9
Wow good.

Worth pointing out though, that the cohesion funds normally require Poland to put up 2/3rds of the money themselves - so it's not as if the EU is simply handing out free cash. Poland actually has had quite a few problems spending the cash.

so what you're saying is that Poland's existence as a country is completely dependent on EU funds? without their "allowance" they'd be.....well.....

Hmm. It's probably more correct to say that Poland is somewhat addicted to EU funds in order to get stuff built - very little investment is happening without EU money. But as I say above - it's only 1/3rd of the money that comes from the EU.

Without that money, the country wouldn't grind to a halt, but there definitely wouldn't be as much roads getting built, things getting renovated, etc etc.
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,438    
29 Jun 2011  #10
Worth pointing out though, that the cohesion funds normally require Poland to put up 2/3rds of the money themselves

2/3rds meaning it actually only gets 1/3rd?? or 2/3rd at first and once the projects are completed the EU pays them back?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,170    
29 Jun 2011  #11
The European Commission has offered Poland 80 billion

In practice It will be no more than 70, we will take no more than 60 out of it paying no less than 35 into it directly, add abandoned tariffs, additional burocracy, CO2 penalties and other bullsites they are going to invent soon and we will hardly make a penny out of it. It should be free trade area, nothing more.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,658    
30 Jun 2011  #12
2/3rds meaning it actually only gets 1/3rd?? or 2/3rd at first and once the projects are completed the EU pays them back?

No no - basically, each project requires Poland to put up their own contribution to the project. Usually, projects are funded 2/3rds by the country (for example, Poland) and the European Union will pay for the remaining 1/3rd. It does vary - I've seen 50-50% projects in Poland, but most common is for the first option.

It's actually quite a fair system - especially as the funds have an expiry date, so they can't simply take the cash and do nothing with it - they must start construction or lose the cash. I recall that the railways actually lost quite a bit of cash in this way.

In practice It will be no more than 70, we will take no more than 60 out of it paying no less than 35 into it directly, add abandoned tariffs, additional burocracy, CO2 penalties and other bullsites they are going to invent soon and we will hardly make a penny out of it. It should be free trade area, nothing more.

Paying 35 billion? I think not. Poland's contribution is around 2 billion a year, no more.

PennBoy - something that's worth pointing out is that Poland stands to massively gain in the coming years from the Common Agricultural Policy - basically, subsidies to farmers. Expect the agricultural areas to massively boom in years to come.
sobieski 107 | 2,129    
30 Jun 2011  #13
And imagine that there people on this forum from the namiotist variety, who claim EU subsidies for Poland are only peanuts
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,963    
30 Jun 2011  #14
In english:

...Poland could receive €80 billion in cohesion policy payments if new budgetary proposals are approved by the European Commission. In addition, the country's farmers may see direct subsidies increase to €30 per hectare of land.

It should be free trade area, nothing more.

What would you trade?

These funds are not gifts, it's investments....the older members helping the new members to develop "up to standard" to share the burden of this union.

The "price" is that you will do the same once you are out of the worst. Not only a taker but a proportional giver too.

Could Poland modernize and develop all on it's own? Maybe, maybe not....the majority of the Poles don't think so.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,378    
30 Jun 2011  #15
A very generous offer.

Could Poland modernize and develop all on it's own? Maybe, maybe not....the majority of the Poles don't think so.

It would take a hell of a lot more time.
Torq 26 | 2,362    
30 Jun 2011  #16
twojaeuropa.pl/1256/polska-na-14-miejscu-w-wykorzystaniu-funduszy-unijnych

Poland utilized 13.4% of funds allocated for her by the European Union in 2009.
I don't have the data for the last year, but let's assume that a miracle happened and that
miracles will happen on a regular basis, so Poland will increase her ability to absorb EU funds
from 13.4% to 50... no, let our imaginaton roam free - 60%!!!

That would mean that in 2014-2020 we will receive 0.6*80 = 48 billion Euro.

Now...

Poland's contribution is around 2 billion a year, no more.

Poland's contribution in 2011 is, in fact, 15.7 billion PLN, which equals about 4 billion euro.

tomaszcukiernik.pl/artykuly/teksty-o-unii-europejskiej/budzetowy-pat

It is likely to increase slighly in the coming years, so the Polish contribution to the EU budget
in years 2014-2020 will be 7*4 = 28 billion euro (and it is unconditional contribution, as opposed
to EU funds, which can be granted only under certain conditions and limitations.)

So, 48 - 28 equals 20 billion euro, in 7 years (2014-2020). That gives a sum of about 2.85 billion
euro a year or, if you will, 75 euro per capita a year, which amounts to about 20 eurocents
a day per capita, every year from 2014 to 2020. YAY!

Now... don't get me wrong... I am very grateful for the 20 eurocents a day that European Union
floods me with every day of my life. Thank you very much, EU. However, when some idiot tells
me that the well being of my family and my country depends on those 20 eurocents, then I can
only smile and offer my sad sympathy for the retard.

75 euro a year per capita - that's what it is ladies and gentlemen, and more I hear about how Poland
depends on that money, and how we live on generous EU handouts, the more I want to give back
my 75 euro and tell the idiots to finally shut the f*ck up :-)

Especially that the ridiculously high tax rates which are a consequence of Poland's EU membership,
like the VAT tax rates for example, cost me way more than 20 eurocents a day.

Actually, I have a great idea... but have to go now - will tell you about it later.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,963    
30 Jun 2011  #17
Now... don't get me wrong... I am very grateful for the 20 eurocents a day that European Union
floods me with every day of my life.

No, you are not! Actually I can't counter your "facts" through a polish only opinion site but don't you think that it might be biased? Who is this Tomasz-guy actually?

But you can't dispute the raw numbers!
European Cohesion Policy in Poland

ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/informat/country2009/pl_en.pdf

THE ESSENTIALS 2007-13

Over €25 billion for tr · ansport infrastructure
· €17.8 billion to protect the environment
· €14 billion for innovation
· €3.6 billion in support of entrepreneurship

A SNAPSHOT OF ACHIEVEMENTS

Nearly 85 000 projects implemented in the years
2004-07
· 3 700 km of roads and over 200 km of motorways built
or modernised by the end of 2007
· Over 15 000 projects offering support to enterprises
implemented in the period 2004-07
· Nearly 350 000 young people received job-related
support

You don't have to be grateful Torq, but you don't have to be an ar*ehole about this help either....it's more than just the money!
Torq 26 | 2,362    
30 Jun 2011  #18
But you can't dispute the raw numbers!

I am giving you raw numbers and raw numbers only.

I can't counter your "facts" through a polish only opinion site but don't you think that it might be biased?

The link that I gave for Poland's utilization of EU funds (13.4% in 2009) gives the official
numbers from European Commission, and in 2011 Polish contribution to the EU budget is indeed
15.7 billion PLN, that is about 4 billion euro. What else is there to dispute?

Look BB, even if Poland would get all the 80 billion euro (100% utilization of EU funds!), then
substracting the Polish contribution, it would still amount to about 54 eurocents a day
per capita. It's peanuts money, mate, and let me assure you that my humble self, my family
and my country would do quite well without them.

But, if the EU is willing to give my family a pack of peanuts a day (even though we don't
particularly like peanuts), then I don't want to offend them, and I accept the peanuts
and even say "thank you!" (one has to be civil), BUT if some people try to tell me
that my family lives on those peanuts... well - you know me, BB, you know what I'm going
to say to such persons :D

You don't have to be grateful Torq

But I am!!!

you don't have to be an arsehole about this help either....it's more than just the money!

I know it's more than just the money, and that's why I am an enthusiastic supporter of the Union (and you know that.)
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,378    
30 Jun 2011  #19
13.4%

But that is 13.4% of the entire budget surely, which means that next year they could use up say 20%. So over a period of 7 years-which i think is the time period in which the EU sets its budget it all totals up. And 60% of 80 billion Euro is a hell of a lot of money.
Torq 26 | 2,362    
30 Jun 2011  #20
And 60% of 80 billion Euro is a hell of a lot of money.

Please read my calculations in #16 to see just how much money it is :-)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,963    
30 Jun 2011  #21
It's peanuts money, mate, and let me assure you that my humble self, my family
and my country would do quite well without them.

So you think that Poland would modernize and develop the same without these funds?

You could shoulder that all on your own?

THE ESSENTIALS 2007–13

Over €25 billion for tr • ansport infrastructure
• €17.8 billion to protect the environment
• €14 billion for innovation
• €3.6 billion in support of entrepreneurship

A SNAPSHOT OF ACHIEVEMENTS

Nearly 85 000 projects implemented in the years
2004–07
• 3 700 km of roads and over 200 km of motorways built
or modernised by the end of 2007
• Over 15 000 projects offering support to enterprises
implemented in the period 2004–07
• Nearly 350 000 young people received job-related
support

delphiandomine 85 | 17,658    
30 Jun 2011  #22
Look BB, even if Poland would get all the 80 billion euro (100% utilization of EU funds!)

You're only counting cohesion funds, not the rest - for instance, what does Poland get from the CAP?

In all honesty - what the money is doing is allowing Poland to build things quicker - and in some cases, getting things built at all. Poland doesn't desperately need the money, but without it - it would be a worse place. Not significantly worse, but still worse.
Torq 26 | 2,362    
30 Jun 2011  #23
So you think that Poland would modernize and develop the same without these funds?

Almost the same, and considering the limitations that EU puts on our economy - probably better,
but that's not the point. Let me explain (soon).

In all honesty - what the money is doing is allowing Poland to build things quicker

I agree.

Poland doesn't desperately need the money

I wholeheartedly agree.

without it - it would be a worse place. Not significantly worse, but still worse.

Gee, I could have written that post myself!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,963    
30 Jun 2011  #24
Almost the same, and considering the limitations that EU puts on our economy - probably better,
but that's not the point. Let me explain (soon).

Really!

Poland would be better off without the billions of the EU? Interesting to know...you should start a party on that!

You don't have to take them, don't you! The EU would be definitely better off without "wasting" so much money in countries which don't need it.

Gah!
Torq 26 | 2,362    
30 Jun 2011  #25
Let me explain (soon).

@BB:

My support for the EU is not based on economic foundations, because I believe that Poland could
develop at least equally well, outside the EU - and I am not alone in my belief, but that's not the point.

The main benefit of the Union is exactly what the word means - unity. Unity means co-operation,
strength and especially - no more wars in Europe (or at least wars between EU countries seem
to be getting more and more unlikely.) That is vital for our continent to be united, to be able
to mean anything in the future and compete with China, India and the US.

It is also nice that I can drive to Paris without waiting on the border and that when German police
stops me for a routine control, the German policewoman smiles and says "dziękuję" and "dobranoc"
in perfect Polish. That's the union on personal level - all the projects that you mentioned, and that
I wrote about in my previous posts and threads - they work also on interpersonal level and deepen
the concord and unity in Europe, and that's, in my opinion, the most important aspect of the EU.

That's why I wholeheartedly support the EU, and that's why I agree to suffer higher VAT tax
rates and the necessity of employing hundreds of thousands of administrative workers by the
state without complaining (too much ;)).

I just don't like to hear how poor, begging Poland is dependent on EU handouts. It's simply not true.

Poland would be better off without the billions of the EU?

I should perhaps put it more clearly. Poland would, most probably, be economically better off
outside the EU, but economy is not everything. AND since we are in the EU, the additional
funds that we get from it help, of course. As Delphi said, inside the EU and without EU funds Poland...

would be a worse place. Not significantly worse, but still worse.

hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,378    
30 Jun 2011  #26
In all honesty - what the money is doing is allowing Poland to build things quicker - and in some cases, getting things built at all. Poland doesn't desperately need the money, but without it - it would be a worse place. Not significantly worse, but still worse.

A good summary of the reality as i see it.

Poland would, most probably, be economically better off

I very much doubt it, can you please elaborate, taking into consideration the preferential treatment EU members give each other in terms of trade, being outside of the union would mean loosing the special trade relationship.
alexw68    
30 Jun 2011  #27
I should perhaps put it more clearly. Poland would, most probably, be economically better off
outside the EU, but economy is not everything.

Not sure I agree with you there.

Like it or not, Poland is dependent on the EU as its main export market for obvious reasons of geography. This is why - rightly or wrongly, the Złoty/Euro exchange rate is relatively stable compared to, eg, the Złoty/CHF or Złoty/GBP rates. Too much shared trade, etc, for there to be anything other than a strong relationship.

But a strong relationship is not a symbiosis, which is what you would get if Poland had already joined the Euro. This would always have been a bad idea for the reasons we now see very clearly; fortunately for Poland no government has been rash enough to push for accession to the single currency which gives Poland an escape route if its fortunes and that of the Eurozone substantially diverge.

Which, if Greece defaults, they most definitely will.

PS: Your take on this (which overall I share) reminds me of what that great statesman, Bronisław Geremek, said in the lead up to accession in 2004: 'A united Europe is half accountancy, half poetry'.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,963    
30 Jun 2011  #28
. Poland would, most probably, be economically better off
outside the EU,

How so?
Natasa 1 | 582    
30 Jun 2011  #29
Torq, I think they want to tell that you all (Poland) should be grateful for their 'good will' (PL' s financial benefit of being part of EU) and accept the submissive position.

You disagree. Rightfully, I think. You want equality. (peace as the reason for EU)

If you phrase question in a more direct way, what answer could you get, if they play it honest?

Is Poland equally worth member of EU like Germany, France...etc.?
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,438    
30 Jun 2011  #30
accept the submissive position.

It's not a submisive position because Poles in other countries can do the same. Work there, claim benefits for themselves or better yet their families back in Poland. Buy and own land.


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