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Poland Should Beef Up Military


Sasha 2 | 1,083
10 Feb 2009 #121
So they will try to start wars with US!!

Lotnik do you realize what you're saying? Name me at least one country that have recently started war(s) with the US. Iraq? lol
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
10 Feb 2009 #122
Defend itself from aggressors I presume.

You think Iran comes marching? :)
JohnP - | 210
10 Feb 2009 #123
And it's interesting... if there're some ethnical cleansing, 1000s of people rotted in camps then Russia is a heir of the guilt but if there're some military bases, factories then of course baltic states or Ukraine or any other country of the former USSR is the rightful heir.

All great powers face this. Likewise the USA. Everyone is around when they think you owe them something, but disappear when there is blame to spread. The only way I could see them being completely right is by calling into account specific people or groups formerly in the Kremlin for what they did. I am not one who believes it is right to terrorize an innocent, simply because his great great great grandfather terrorized my own, for instance.

The best guarantee is not to keep radioactive materials (going back to my example), i.e. not to install missile shield.

The interceptors they plan for the shield have no radioactive materials; they are not like the old 1950s and 60s interceptors from the US and (apparently still) Russia, which were themselves small nuclear weapons. The new ones (here) use kinetic technology. Not sure if Russia is concerned enough to change, after all her nuclear interceptors do work...they're just nasty is all. In the US there is a huge stigma against anything that has the word "nuclear" in it, so there's large pushes to do things in other ways.

Iran is bluffing.

We can hope.

They in fact did once the launch of the satellite but there was Russia helping them. Their warhead delivery system can cover for now less than 2000km but as I already said Russia didn't feel comfortable with that and tried to reach a compromise with Iran both in her oil interests and interests of her and her neighbours safety.

I've never supposed that Iran's capabilities were achieved without help. I am not saying Russia handed Iran ICBMs anymore than the US gave them stinger missiles...but ultimately, as I understand it, it is believed Iran got a lot of her technology from the Koreans and other sources, who...originally got *their* toys from Russia; likewise the Iranians' latest shoulder fired missile...is simply a copy of smuggled Stingers from Afghanistan, but made locally in Iran. I agree with using diplomacy as much as possible, however diplomacy without force to back it is foolhardy.

Of course Iran is such a huge threat, LOL. Does Israel have such a shield?

Perhaps they do. It is no accident I believe, that on multiple occasions Israel has desired to attack the Iranian nuclear sites. It was Israeli intel, I believe, that brought to light that the Iranians were purifying nuclear material in the first place, but this is one point I could be wrong about. The rest of the world seemed to be, and perhaps continues to be...hiding its eyes.

I don't deny the right to defence. Yes, safety is of paramount importance but we have been bought and sold by the press. Political considerations should assume greater importance as the threat is questionable at best.

I agree...we HAVE been bought and sold. However the threat being questionable at best....I disagree on. Just because someone smiles to you does not mean he is not going to kill you. There are words, and there are deeds. Trust but verify.

It just seems like Poland is pandering to the whims of the White House at the expense of Russia. It should be addressed on its merit and not as a payback. Since when has Iran been interested in Poland?

Iran is interested in Poland because unlike our own countries, Iran's government and its religion...are essentially one and the same. It is hard for many in secular countries to understand, but it isn't because of who Poland is, but because of where she stands.

Killing USA military?? If that was really the case, there was no way in God's Earth that he'd've braved the trip to Columbia University.

Seanus, you forget, Columbia University, for starters, invited him, are not pro-US policy in any way (many US universities seem stuck in the 1960's and aren't happy if they can't protest something), and furthermore.....the U.S. is still in spite of what many may believe, a civilized country. The man, like him or not, is a head of state, and the headquarters of the UN, etc...is here, also, even though they seldom decide anything in the U.S. favor.

If you look deep enough, you will find that Bush treated Ahmedinejad very well for somebody who was such a 'threat'. His safe passage was paramount and his assassination was never really an issue.

He was protected as are any foreign leaders here. It does not mean his country is not seen as a threat, what sort of travesty do you propose should have been done? While his country is seen as a threat, we are not in direct war with them, and what exactly do you think would have happened had we allowed something to happen to him? There is a difference between seeing his nation as a threat, and therefore putting in place measures to protect against the same (diplomatic pressure to stop plutonium enrichment, missile shields to allies in his range, etc etc even asking Israelis to hold off while we attempt diplomacy) and outright attacking him personally or his nation. After all, unlike our nations, where Presidents or Prime Ministers hold much of the power, in Iran, the strings are pulled from behind the scenes.

Please tell me, how many interviews have you seen him in?? I have watched him in several and, although I see a devious glint in his eye, I don't think he is the kind of person who would destroy like others suggest.

People thought similar things about other leaders who proved to be just that. Stalin *looked* friendly.

It's like Obama at the APEC conference, VERY pro-Israel but, with a different audience, the tune changes a fair bit.

With Ahmadinejad...the tune at home and abroad changes QUITE a bit. He is a very intelligent man, that doesn't mean it is somehow unwise to watch him and his nation with a wary eye.

Regardless of why you think we are in this situation.

John P.
celinski 31 | 1,258
10 Feb 2009 #124
Everyone is around when they think you owe them something, but disappear when there is blame to spread. The only way I could see them being completely right is by calling into account specific people or groups formerly in the Kremlin for what they did. I am not one who believes it is right to terrorize an innocent, simply because his great great great grandfather terrorized my own

Russia has not taken responsibility for the "Gulags" they sent millions of innocent people to. Not just military, but family's, innocent children died for no reason other than being Polish, Russian, Jewish, German or Catholic. "Katyn" massacre was men that had laid down their arms and were willing to fight with Soviets.

Today is Feb. 10, 1940. My family were stuffed in cattle cars and sent to Siberia today. Four of them lost their lives. I ask that you light a candle for them as we do in Warsaw and every other nation across this world. Go to the memorial at Kresy-Siberia.org and read the names or say a silent prayer for the Russian family that were never to grow old. But please don't say you can forget. This is how history can repeat itself.

People thought similar things about other leaders who proved to be just that. Stalin *looked* friendly

People say the same thing about Putin and his KGB staff. He appear so likeable, yet why is he revising Communist Soviet ways?
sjam 2 | 541
10 Feb 2009 #125
Today is Feb. 10, 1940. My family were stuffed in cattle cars and sent to Siberia today. Four of them lost their lives. I ask that you light a candle for them

Amen to that.
MrBubbles 10 | 614
10 Feb 2009 #126
Iran is ku ku ku ku ku a country run by morons that want their god to come back and run the world!

??????

Poland needs to have the army ready 24/7 for the unexpected!!

I hate to break this to you Lotnik, but Poland's army hasn't done squat for Poland for the last century. they got their arese handed to them on a plate by the Russians. the Germans and the Austrians. During Communism, the armed forces enabled the government to enforce their control over the people.

No, what got rid of communism and ensured Polish independence was not the glorious armed forces. It wasn't even Pope John Paul. It was the market forces sounding last orders for the Soviet empire and the dogged will of the people who stood up for themselves and unionised against the government. History will show that a few thousand priests and Solidarity members did far more for Poland than all the hundreds of thousands of servicemen who died to keep rich men happy.

But that doesn't make good cinema does it?
celinski 31 | 1,258
10 Feb 2009 #127
but Poland's army hasn't done squat for Poland for the last century. they got their arese handed to them on a plate by the Russians. the Germans and the Austrians. During Communism, the armed forces enabled the government to enforce their control over the people.

Please, in the east the military were told to put down arms. They were later to be massacred by Stalin's henchmen, the others Stalin had his henchmen come in the night to the farms, take them (unarmed) at gun point with women and children to slave and die in Siberia.

That takes care of Eastern Poland, now the other three sides were being bombared by Nazi's, the ones coming to help were no show's and still Poland was the forth largest, fought from start to finish, fought on every front.

What was left of Polish when our allies decided to give our country away to the very ones that had a pack with Hitler. Funny thought it took both Soviet's and Nazi's and lies to disarm our military to get that far. You want to refrase that last quote Mr. Bubbles?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
10 Feb 2009 #128
The main theme in your response was the smile of Ahmedinejad, John. I agree that charming people can often deceive us. I don't think that he is so psychopathic though. Well, it's a calculated gamble to ignore his destructive potential.

I don't think the world is hiding its eyes. France, in particular, vociferously opposes any nuclear developments in Iran. Just Youtube Bernard Kouchner and Iran and you will see. Merkel has also belly rumbled lately. Gordon Brown is never too far from the backside of the US President, taking over from Blair.

I'm aware that Ahmedinejad was invited by Columbia. That doesn't change the fact that he was putting himself into the danger zone. The opening spokesman was highly critical and put him to the sword from the word go. Hardly a protest against the US.

I agree with not having a go at him, John. So why then did Bush engage in zero diplomacy with the man? Also, why did Bush and his henchmen discuss pre-emptive strikes against him if things aren't that bad?
Lotnik767 3 | 145
10 Feb 2009 #129
Sasha
Today, 15:44 Report #122

Lotnik767: So they will try to start wars with US!!

Lotnik do you realize what you're saying? Name me at least one country that have recently started war(s) with the US. Iraq? lol

All I'm saying and you probably don't understand is that Iran is trying to start a war it's heading towards it!! I didn't say they did start one! And is Japan had balls to invade US don't you think that other countries might too perhaps one day!! I just have been following the Iran news and they are crazy, and if you haven been paying attention that I'll just remind you that Iran just fired a satellite in to space.

MrBubbles
Today, 18:38 Report #127

Wake up get your ass to a Library and learn some History about Poland and Army. No one is talking about Polish Army abolishing Communism. All Polish People know who fought for free Poland Today!!
JohnP - | 210
10 Feb 2009 #130
I don't think the world is hiding its eyes. France, in particular, vociferously opposes any nuclear developments in Iran. Just Youtube Bernard Kouchner and Iran and you will see.

(Seanus, I'll have to take your word. I can't you tube anything out here....too much bandwidth. )
Still that's now. Where was everyone when Ahmadinejad first fired up the reactors, and at home was vowing the destruction of the Zionists (like them or not, they ARE an entire country) and their allies, while seeming simply to be the charming man who leads a country being picked on by the Americans...when he is abroad?

A two faced man is capable of anything. Give him nuclear weapons...and the unpredictability is terrifying.

Which, I think, also answers your questions about Bush and his "henchmen" considering pre-emptive strikes against him, and why they did not open dialogue with him. When a man says things that contradict, what sort of "deal" can he make, that is worth potentially risking millions of lives? Exactly none.

So, preparations are made in case war is the only option (in spite of the people around who say "why he seems like such a nice man, Mr. Ahmadinejad") while putting containment measures in place(missile shields, etc) if it is not.

After all, we could go to war with N. Korea tomorrow...they rattle their sabers every two weeks it seems, looking for attention. If Iran is one of these, it would be stupid to engage in a fourth front, when Iran can simply be put into a holding pattern until hopefully saner leaders come to power or something else happens.

Not to mention...if all these other countries are "highly critical" etc etc of Iran's actions, let them put THEIR men on the line for once. We've heard this before. Everyone and their brother claimed Saddam had WMD's, but then when they weren't instantly found, did they say "oh we were wrong" or, "maybe they were moved or we just couldn't find them"? no, they said "Bush lied, and Americans are fighting an ILLEGAL WAR". So screw all of them. Until their blood is on the line too. I'm happy to do things for my country, but I'm tired of doing the world's dirty work only to have them call US the center of all that is evil, when we do it.

Iran's missiles can't reach MY home town, after all.
Perhaps some of the countries Iran CAN reach or even ones it's a good bet they can...can make the first move on this. I feel like America is somehow the world's doberman. They love us when they want us to protect them, but talk about they hate that $#^ dog when their society neighbors are around.

It is frustrating.
I'm in an odd mood.

John P.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
10 Feb 2009 #131
Well, the election process takes place in a few months in Iran. An old candidate is in the race and he may be in with a good shout. A new appointment, a more moderate one like he is, would go a long way to alleviating tensions and restoring hope in the process of dialogue.
JohnP - | 210
10 Feb 2009 #132
A new appointment, a more moderate one like he is, would go a long way to alleviating tensions and restoring hope in the process of dialogue.

This is something we can all hope for, and reason enough to be ready, but not pull the trigger just yet;
John P.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
10 Feb 2009 #133
Well, Obama has extended his arm out and, judging by reports, Iran are interested. They just don't want to be treated as fools in a carrot and stick game.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7880647.stm
he talks of mutual respect which is fair enough.
JohnP - | 210
10 Feb 2009 #134
Well, Obama has extended his arm out and, judging by reports, Iran are interested. They just don't want to be treated as fools in a carrot and stick game.

Here is what a major problem is here...I think I have more issue with Ahmadinejad personally than I do with Iran. They were an ally in the past, and might (some day) be again. However leaders demanding a whole segment of society, or entire nations vanish are not to be trusted.

How does he EXPECT to be treated. In this day and age such things are took more literally than figuratively, even if saying it figuratively were in the realm of polite conversation.

John P.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
10 Feb 2009 #135
Well, the man is intelligent but very silly at the same time. He needed to keep towing the line that he likes Jews and he is open to dialogue. Why he went ahead and made an inflammatory remark is beyond me. He had the chance to build up his arsenal and keeping his trap shut.

Were he to acquire a WMD, he'd've been able to raise the argument that NK has had them for a long time. But no, the fool went ahead and gave America a golden pretext for employing the pre-emptive doctrine by talking of making states vanish.

What is on his side is the notion that Russia are behind them. America will not go into Iran unless you know otherwise. Obama would not plunder America into a broader fight.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
10 Feb 2009 #136
If there starts something it will be Israelis bombing targets deep in Iran (of course all in self defense) and nobody will do anything about it (maybe even blaming Iran for it).
Seanus 15 | 19,706
10 Feb 2009 #137
What's gonna happen is that evidence is gonna be butchered again, much like the WMD's. That'll give them their pretext. If nothing changes, Israel has no real right to go in. Why hasn't it gone in before?

Iran has been compliant with many of its regulations. You have to read both sides. Israel don't have a right to speak of violations given their appalling record under the UN. No, I'm not anti-Semitic, just speaking the truth.
PolskaMan 2 | 147
10 Feb 2009 #138
Kraut boy you were complaining that lesser wasnt giving you an answer,

Wheres mine?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
10 Feb 2009 #139
Wheres mine?

Maybe you should write more clearly?

But if you meant if the german invasion would had been successful without the Soviets I wonder again about Poles understanding of history....just a reminder:

German troops invaded on the 1th of September
Most polish troops were deployed on the german-polish border as the russian border was depleted of troops moving mostly west wards.
So after more than 2 weeks with most of the polish troops already defeated by the german army I have to say: Yes, the Germany didn't need the Soviets!

Look at this map: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rzeczpospolita_1939_Polish_divisions.png

The Soviets wandered in on the other side on the 17th of September...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

on September 1, German forces invaded Poland from the north, south, and west. Spread thin defending their long borders, the Polish armies were soon forced to withdraw eastward. After the mid-September Polish defeat in the Battle of the Bzura, the Germans gained an undisputed advantage

On 17 September 1939, the Soviet Red Army invaded the eastern regions of Poland in cooperation with Germany.[9

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

By the time the Soviets invaded, the Polish commanders had sent most of their troops west to face the Germans, leaving the east protected by only 20 under-strength battalions.

The real fight was between the Germans and the Poles on the western front...after 17 days most was already done!
PolskaMan 2 | 147
10 Feb 2009 #140
Maybe you should write more clearly?

How?

Most polish troops were deployed on the german-polish border

No the KOP was deployed on the german-Polish border

So after more than 2 weeks with most of the polish troops already defeated

Where did you find this out?

You wouldnt have won if you the 2 countries signed a friendship pact

Oh and wikipedia isnt a reliable source
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
10 Feb 2009 #141
Where did you find this out?

Well...where do you think was the battle line on the evening of the 16th September?

You wouldnt have won if you the 2 countries signed a friendship pact

Well, Poland wasn't especially friendly towards the Germans too, seeing no need to as one had the promises of the Brits and the French, right?

Poland planned for a war too (but you thought not before 1942).

Oh and wikipedia isnt a reliable source

Bring a better one...
PolskaMan 2 | 147
10 Feb 2009 #142
Poland planned for a war too

Where do you get all this crap from?
Filios1 8 | 1,336
10 Feb 2009 #144
Poland would never have invaded Germany... sorry to break the news to you now BB. Only in 1933-35, would such an undertaking be succesful, with allied help. Even Poles are sober enough to realize that, back then. Your Nazi grandfathers were the deal breakers.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
10 Feb 2009 #145
Poland would never have invaded Germany...

I didn't say that....

But you can be agressive and belligerent nonetheless. Remember Danzig? A town full of Germans, the Poles gave them two choices: Become Poles or leave!

No corridor either...no tries for compromises, no negotiations...after all the Brits and the French would be there to help you, wouldn't they!

After all the stunts what the Kazynskies pulled during their time I can fully believe how stubborn and annoying you can be as neighbours and how the germans who now had to live in your new country (a gift from the Treaty of Versailles) were made to suffer now by you...

But then...why compromising with the neighbour as the Brits and the French and who else will surely pull your nuts out of the fire if pushes come to shove, right? Right!

Sounds mightily familiar again...
Filios1 8 | 1,336
10 Feb 2009 #146
were made to suffer now by you

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH..... .
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423
10 Feb 2009 #147
I really wonder what goes for history education with you folks...oh wait...I remember the mantra:

"We poor, innocent Poles *sniff....surrounded by these blood thirsty barbarians...*sniff*...they have nothing better to do than to torture us poor helpless Poles...*sniff sniff*...we are soooo innocent, so helpless...we Poles are the only good people here in whole Europe...pwease, can we become the 51th state of the US??? Please...can you see our halos??? We are such a nice people, the best of them all.."

Something like that...
PolskaMan 2 | 147
10 Feb 2009 #148
Remember Danzig? A town full of Germans, the Poles gave them two choices: Become Poles or leave!
No corridor either...no tries for compromises, no negotiations...after all the Brits and the French would be there to help you, wouldn't they!

Remember 1795??
PolskaMan 2 | 147
10 Feb 2009 #150
Your not alive because you have no life.


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