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Poland's atheist loonies have had their 5 minutes


Barney 15 | 1,476
8 Jan 2011 #151
now you're making a different claim.

I'm not, I never said that God produced better results than science, I said that religion produced results.

I think you have missed the point somewhat, religion has produced results in parallel to science that are measured in a different way, that cannot be quantified, I'm not talking about do gooders helping the infirm to hospital etc but intangible benefits similar to what science calls the placebo effect.

Why do you think it couldn't be disproved?

Arguing that Science is what scientists do is the same argument that religious people use. It must be within the scientific method otherwise the logic used as justification for the superiority of science over religion disappears. Its not good enough to have an anything goes approach.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
8 Jan 2011 #152
Tomorrow, everywhere in Poland for the 19th time WOSP will collect money for the children of Poland. Helping without converting. Thousands of volunteers will work for that as they do every year.

Attacked by the crossist smolenkist fraction of this country.
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Jan 2011 #153
Is it tomorrow? Good luck to them.

And it's true, there have been reports of them being condemned from the pulpit - the reason why is anyone's guess.
ShawnH 8 | 1,507
8 Jan 2011 #154
Is it tomorrow? Good luck to them.

What network is it being broadcast on?
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Jan 2011 #155
TVP2, TVN and Canal+ as well as local stations.

Don't forget you can donate by SMS.

Subject the eighteenth Finale of the Great Orchestra of Christmas Charity for the second time: For children with oncological diseases - for retrofitting cancer clinics in the highly specialized equipment.

Great Finale is not only taking place across the country collecting public, but executed with great panache television show. This year, for the first time in the history of the Final will be implemented by the three nationwide TV stations

media2.pl/media/60268-final-wosp:-plan-transmisji-w-tv,-numery-sms.html
ShawnH 8 | 1,507
8 Jan 2011 #156
Thx! The better half said there might be some footage / coverage of her former workplace!
poland_
9 Jan 2011 #157
And it's true, there have been reports of them being condemned from the pulpit - the reason why is anyone's guess.

WOSP has to be applauded for the work it does, J O is considered autocratic so I am sure he upsets a few along the way.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Jan 2011 #158
Mr Oatmeal (Owsiak) has worked hard to prove that you cannot simply raise funds for a noble cause for tis own sake. You have to seduce young people with idiotic slogans like 'róbta co chceta' and 'siema', pretend to be a rocking, ear-pierced 50-year-old fart and organise drunken, drug-laced rock concerts as incentives. Why not show the young that helping sick and handicapped children is its own reward?
kondzior 12 | 1,242
10 Jan 2011 #159
Because they are too smart to be fooled? ;-)
peterweg 37 | 2,319
10 Jan 2011 #160
Christians...throw em to the lions...

Finger licking good.
jonni 16 | 2,485
10 Jan 2011 #161
Why not show the young that helping sick and handicapped children is its own reward?

A commendable idea, but would it engage them as much as WOSP? There was famine relief long before Live Aid, but if that's what it took to get the donations coming, so be it.

Plenty of priests, nuns etc were helping the most wretched people before Mother Theresa came along, but her media-savvyness got people's attention and that was no bad thing.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
10 Jan 2011 #162
organise drunken, drug-laced rock concerts as incentives.

Who cares if the concerts are drunken and drug-laced? There's still vast amounts of money going to children that need the money most - how it's raised really doesn't matter.

A commendable idea, but would it engage them as much as WOSP?

Not a chance. The sheer success of WOSP is down to the fact that it's successfully engaged young people - who are normally apathy-laden!
alexw68
10 Jan 2011 #163
drunken, drug-laced rock concerts

Mate - there is no other kind. Never been to one?
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
10 Jan 2011 #164
Barney wrote:

I'm not talking about do gooders helping the infirm to hospital etc but intangible benefits similar to what science calls the placebo effect.

Yet again, the placebo effect is not a religious phenomenon. It's a case of someone thinking in their minds that they're being helped in one way or another and that positive attitude can potentially improve their health. You do not need religion to do that, there are 1,000 other ways.

Let's take a scientific example: Someone's in the hospital with a terrible disease and the doctor tells them, "there's a new procedure, it has had remarkable results, almost 100% success rate, we're going to start you on it tomorrow morning," and voila, the placebo effect.

If you're going to talk about two things, religion and science, you must successfully seperate one from the other. The placebo effect is not unique to religion.
Barney 15 | 1,476
10 Jan 2011 #165
I think I wrote something like "similar to what Science calls the Placebo effect" meaning there is no rational explanation for this effect. Its not a leap of faith to see how an unexplained phenomenon can be measured in different ways, it hasnt been codified.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
10 Jan 2011 #166
barney wrote:

I think I wrote something like "similar to what Science calls the Placebo effect" meaning there is no rational explanation for this effect.

if someone gets better due to their "belief" that some supernatural being helped them along the way, meaning it was in fact their positive attitude that produced such positive results, this is the placebo effect. nothing more, nothing less. religion cannot lay claim to that. what religion routinely does though, however, is claim that God intervened, "saved" the person from death or further suffering. claims such as these cannot be proved and are no more rational than a boat captain blaming the stormy seas on Poseidon. same level of crazy, same level of irrationality.

also, saying "there is no rational explination" also is not a religious claim. yet again you are making no seperation at all which brings me back to my original question.

praying to an invisible being can only change someone's life in 2 ways:

1) if the prayers are answered and their personal God intervenes....which is the equivalent to believing that Obama is a reincarnate of Elvis.

2) the placebo effect. not something "similar", but exactly that, which leads non believers to ask religious believers this:

What do you get from religion that I cannot get from another source? What results can you produce that I cannot?
alexw68
10 Jan 2011 #167
What do you get from religion that I cannot get from another source?

The luuuuurve, man. And/or the guilt complex.
Olaf 6 | 956
10 Jan 2011 #168
And/or the guilt complex.

... and this terrifying feeling that for our sins on this Earth we can spend whole eternity in hell, suffering unimaginable anguish and pain

And/or the guilt complex.

... yeah, and this terrifying feeling that for our sins on this Earth we can spend whole eternity in hell, suffering unimaginable anguish and tearing pain from being hung by the testicles over a cauldron of sulphur and fire.
Barney 15 | 1,476
10 Jan 2011 #169
if someone gets better due to their "belief" that some supernatural being helped them along the way, meaning it was in fact their positive attitude that produced such positive results, this is the placebo effect.

You dont know because it hasnt been explained by science so any claim that science makes is as valid as any claim made by non scientists in this instance.

claims such as these cannot be proved

And that is the very point I have been making all along, if you cannot falsify a belief it has no more validity than any other belief, evolution cannot be falsified.

The only way to evaluate competing beliefs is to resort to either probability or a measurement of results which use different yardsticks making the task that little bit harder if not impossible.

Once one has dropped logic, claiming that your system is better or superior to another is bogus.

What results can you produce that I cannot?

All sorts of results that cannot be measured by science. Today I am 7.8346 happy just doesnt work.

Of course so called empirical, logical thinkers will gladly use rubbish like IQ tests to make decisions, I dont see anyone belittling their belief system.

I have been saying this for a few days now, you need to separate logic from belief if you claim there is a logical basis for saying there is no God.
alexw68
10 Jan 2011 #170
evolution cannot be falsified

It can in logic and in principle, therefore the Popper distinction holds. One can easily conceive of the kind of evidence that would disprove it were it to exist.
Barney 15 | 1,476
10 Jan 2011 #171
It can in logic and in principle

In principle yes but in logic? I would really appreciate if you can demonstrate that.
Popper himself said it cannot be falsified and referred to evolution as a metaphysical platform.
Ashleys mind 3 | 455
10 Jan 2011 #172
It can in logic and in principle, therefore the Popper distinction holds. One can easily conceive of the kind of evidence that would disprove it were it to exist.

So in a round about way we're stuck with evolution???
alexw68
10 Jan 2011 #173
Popper himself said it cannot be falsified and referred to evolution as a metaphysical platform.

On his understanding of evolution (still, effectively, a black-box mechanism) perhaps - complexity theory (and artificial-life experiments conducted much more recently) fill in a lot of the gaps. Not to mention the ever-growing fossil record itself.
Barney 15 | 1,476
10 Jan 2011 #174
On his understanding of evolution (still, effectively, a black-box mechanism) perhaps

Natural selection is what we are discussing, (the bare bones of evolution…inside the box) the thing that evolution hangs on. That is why I referred to it as being the platform for other easily falsifiable ideas.

The fact remains that natural selection works and can be demonstrated to do so but it is as logical/illogical as any other belief.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
10 Jan 2011 #175
If I may sum up your position, it is this:
Belief in a God and Evolution are equal becuase they are not falsafiable and therefore it does not fall in to the riggers of the scientific method of evaluation.

Several kinds of evidence have been proposed that could falsify evolution,etc...

sfdsfdsf
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
11 Jan 2011 #176
barney wrote:

You dont know because it hasnt been explained by science so any claim that science makes is as valid as any claim made by non scientists in this instance.

this is essentially a non statement.

what you are saying is limitless. you could use statements like this to essentially discredit ANYTHING that is thought to be true or fact in this world because "belief" has no boundaries.

years ago they thought that if a human wasn't sacrificed every day the sun wouldn't rise but as crazy as that sounded, no scientist at that time could prove them wrong. the information simply wasn't available. In today's day, take any belief in any religion that a scientist cannot disprove outright and you're looking at the same scenerio. same game.
Richfilth 6 | 415
11 Jan 2011 #177
take any belief in any religion that a scientist cannot disprove outright and you're looking at the same scenerio.

This is known as Russell's Teapot, but also as the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
alexw68
11 Jan 2011 #178
what you are saying is limitless. you could use statements like this to essentially discredit ANYTHING that is thought to be true or fact in this world because "belief" has no boundaries.

Welcome to doctrinaire postmodernism - the tumour in the spine of academe.
milky 13 | 1,657
11 Jan 2011 #179
praying to an invisible being can only change someone's life in 2 ways:

Im an athiest, myself at heart, but i disagree with your bluntness, there is a power in ritual that creates calm and compassion:sort of like what the soap opera does for the consumer mind-set.
Barney 15 | 1,476
11 Jan 2011 #180
If I may sum up your position, it is this:
Belief in a God and Evolution are equal becuase they are not falsafiable and therefore it does not fall in to the riggers of the scientific method of evaluation.

Belief in God and evolution is not the same. Belief in evolution is based upon evidence that can be measured in a scientific way. I agree with the rest.

Evolution doesn't lend its self to analysis by the formal method of "hypothesis testing" and often seeks to explain in an apparent ad hoc way. For example the gaps in the fossil record that gradual change cannot explain (save that they are lost or Dawkins view that the creatures migrated) have been explained by punctuated equilibrium (a jerky change) there are problems with that approach so punctuated gradualism (Jerky in a different way) was used. Together these fit the observable data but one by itself cannot explain all the data. Its possible that all three or more mechanisms operated together but again this is not a tweak, doesn't make predictions and is untestable.

I joined this thread because Posters were using the logic of science to say there is no God, and I pointed out that there are flaws in the logic of some sciences so their argument was illogical.

I'm not discrediting anything merely pointing out that Science is not as logically sound as some believe. My non statement that you quoted in fact describes what science tries to do, remove superstition. Any blind acceptance of "science" is just a form of belief. I dont know is a powerful statement showing an open scientific mind.

years ago they thought that if a human wasn't sacrificed every day the sun wouldn't rise but as crazy as that sounded, no scientist at that time could prove them wrong.

Alchemists and astrologers were not scientists, empiricism wasn't invented.


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