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Poland's atheist loonies have had their 5 minutes


wildrover 98 | 4,451
7 Jan 2011 #121
If you know whats good for you...
A J 4 | 1,088
7 Jan 2011 #122
..which I cleary don't!

xD
convex 20 | 3,978
7 Jan 2011 #123
So with reference to the title, is it being implied that all atheists are loonies, or that these loonies are atheists?
Wroclaw Boy
7 Jan 2011 #124
Well, let's just say that to me it's pretty obvious that it doesn't have to happen. (I mean, look around you?)

What people being beheaded or people throwing stones at others, no it really does have to happen, would be a bit weird if it never happened.

atheists are narrow minded and closed off to the possibilities existing in outer space.

Thats a good one everything makes sense down here but the minute you look up into the sky it goes straight out the window. Its a humbling experience, to gaze and wonder.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
7 Jan 2011 #125
No..its being implied by some bible basher that anyone who does not share his views must be mentally impaired...

Going to a church to indulge in lavish ceremonies to worship an invisble person of course shows you are well balanced and normal...
A J 4 | 1,088
7 Jan 2011 #126
What people being beheaded or people throwing stones at others, no it really does have to happen, would be a bit weird if it never happened.

Well, I'm happy to be weird then, living in my weird country where none of this happens.

;)
Barney 15 | 1,476
7 Jan 2011 #127
is it being implied that all atheists are loonies

Yes, the op has a special way about him.

All this talk about logic, proof and the church being anti religious is just silly.
Science doesnt work that way, good old Popper and later the Hungarian Lakatos is the view most have of science, where each piece of knowledge is placed on top of the previous bit of knowledge to form a thing called a paradigm. That is good for teaching purposes but what happens when a scientific explanation cannot be refuted.

Evolution cannot be falsified, in fact it is not a scientific theory as understood in the classical sense. What evolution does is produce better results than religion but it is essentially a belief and it is justified by going to probability. ie science using an art to provide foundations for universal laws.

In short its just as illogical to say there is no God as it is to say there is a God.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
7 Jan 2011 #128
What evolution does is produce better results than religion but it is essentially a belief

You are missing one huge point that is evidence.
It is this evidence that led Darwin to this theory and since millions of more pieces to back it up.

In short its just as illogical to say there is no God as it is to say there is a God.

Given that 'logic' it is equally logical to say there are leprechauns, unicorns and honest politicians as it is to say there are not.
Wroclaw Boy
7 Jan 2011 #129
Ohh crap BM's here.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
7 Jan 2011 #130
Yeah baby!
I was happily just reading through but then someone mentioned supernatural mumbo-jumbo on a par with evolution and well, you know the rest :p
Barney 15 | 1,476
7 Jan 2011 #131
You are missing one huge point that is evidence.

The evidence only fits if you believe the idea and evidence is not proof. In fact it's much more powerful to be able to disprove something then there can be no doubt, using probability always leaves room for doubt.

Given that 'logic' it is equally logical to say there are leprechauns, unicorns and honest politicians as it is to say there is are not.

Yes thats right. You just need to find one. Evolution hangs by a similar thread.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
7 Jan 2011 #132
The evidence only fits if you believe the idea

I am afraid the scientific method works almost the opposite of religion in this way.
Science, unlike religion, tries to find fault with it's ideas, understandings and so with our advancement in knowledge and understanding the books change that is why it is called the 'theory of evolution' not because it is a belief but because of the millions of separate pieces of evidence found that support the theory and the lack of evidence against it.

In fact it's much more powerful to be able to disprove something then there can be no doubt

I agree to an extent but to believe you are a big purple dinosaur typing on this forum just because I can not prove you aren't, no evidence necessary, is nonsense.

Yes thats right. You just need to find one.

You have more chance of finding leprechauns ridding around on unicorns than an honest politician :)

Evolution hangs by a similar thread.

Hence the important word, 'Theory' when we talk about evolution.
Do you talk about the theory of God?
Science is not arrogant enough to talk in absolute terms, I am but good science isn't :)
Barney 15 | 1,476
7 Jan 2011 #133
All the evidence for evolution can be used to formulate another set of ideas the only way to evaluate the two would be to disprove one or both. The nature of evolution leaves it unable to be disproved so we have to rely upon results produced ie predictions. Evolution doesn’t provide predictions it just explains what has happened.

Creating an idea from observations cannot be scientific because you cannot separate the idea from the observations ie the observable universe will fit your idea not the other way round. You dont start looking at things with a blank mind.

Evolution has provided a great platform for the sciences but it really in not a testable theory as you quite rightly described science as being.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
7 Jan 2011 #134
Evolution doesn't provide predictions it just explains what has happened.

Nobody ever said it had to.

The nature of evolution leaves it unable to be disproved

Of course it could be disproved but it hasn't been so far, there is a big difference.
GOD could just reveal himself and WHAM! :)
In fact the theory has itself evolved to such a state today that Darwin would perhaps not recognise it.
The fact that it hasn't been disproved is not a platform, that it is not a good theory, it could just be bringing us closer to the truth.

we have to rely upon results produced ie predictions. Evolution doesn't provide predictions it just explains what has happened.

This makes no sense, it sounds like you have something specific in mind, do you?
Or maybe I am just not getting what you are saying?

You dont start looking at things with a blank mind.

Well that's ''standing on the shoulders of giants'' out the window.
We can build on some sort of foundation, even rip it apart and improve it.
Our computers would not exist if everything was looked at with a blank mind but then again it took someone to look at something observable to come up with one theory for the next generation of thought to come up with an extension of that theory or to completely wipe the old one out.

And as for people looking at evolution with a blank mind, I think we all do.

Creating an idea from observations cannot be scientific because you cannot separate the idea from the observations ie the observable universe will fit your idea not the other way round.

I agree, hence the word 'theory'.
And once a scientist has come up with a theory, they or most other scientists try their damnedest to disprove it.
But measurable, physical evidence in a court of law is a powerful persuasive tool, I would say much more persuasive than some old scrolls written by unknown authors and translated and edited so much that I doubt if anyone would recognise the original, talking about supernatural mumbo jumbo with no proof, relying on blind faith is nowhere near the same.

Evolution has provided a great platform for the sciences but it really in not a testable theory as you quite rightly described science as being.

This is why I think you have something in particular in mind but lets continue anyway, lets take for example your Human vestigiality.
Your tailbone is the remnant of your lost tail.

One thing of interest is that we have, in some ways, conquered evolution but that is another day's argument :)
Barney 15 | 1,476
7 Jan 2011 #135
sounds like you have something specific in mind, do you?

Only that I dislike absolutism. Not only is it good practice its natural to question things. Belief in God is only illogical if you look at it with an absolutist mind. I think the same about certain aspects of science, evolution being the most obvious.

No one looks at the world without pre conceived ideas that is why ideas need testing. Newtonian Physics makes all sorts of predictions from knowing where a cannon ball will land to the sun coming up in the morning, they can be falsified. Evolution cannot be disproved because it doesnt make predictions that means its a belief. An idea that has enabled the production of many, many measurable results.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
7 Jan 2011 #136
I think the same about certain aspects of science, evolution being the most obvious.

The theory of evolution.
Do you really call it the theory of God?

It's a great theory, does it make me a better person? do I wage war over it? does it make me money? does it explain everything? no

Could it be a step in the right direction for understanding our universe? yes it could.

I find this in stark contrast to religion, with it's dogma, power struggle and absolutism.
Religion does not seek to question itself. it can't by it's own nature, whereas science must.

Evolution cannot be disproved because it doesnt make predictions that means its a belief.

Now I think I know where you are coming from but still I disagree.
Our understanding of evolution is not perfected maybe we can't ever fully understand it but it is growing.
There are perhaps too many variables for it to be predictable but I am sure something similar was imagined when we tried anything new, like harnessing fire.

No one looks at the world without pre conceived ideas that is why ideas need testing

Cart before the horse, Darwin didn't just have a notion and try to find things to back it up, neither has any serious investigator since.

The evidence led to the idea, think of it as a murder trial, a dead body is found and we uncover what happened, we didn't invent an idea of a dead body and then come up with some evidence to back it up.

Coincidently Darwin was not the only one who came to the theory because of the evidence, maybe it was just time for man (now that is a belief:)

In your own words:

each piece of knowledge is placed on top of the previous bit of knowledge to form a thing called a paradigm.

what happens when a scientific explanation cannot be refuted.

I know you are read at least somewhat on this matter and you can't say that the theory of evolution was not ridiculed:

sdfadsf

And scrutinised although I am very happy that it is scrutinised, perhaps you have been reading too much Dawkins (or perhaps I have:p)?
Barney 15 | 1,476
8 Jan 2011 #137
I find this in stark contrast to religion, with it's dogma, power struggle and absolutism.
Religion does not seek to question itself. it can't by it's own nature, whereas science must.

Yeah, I agree I dislike religion but I'm still not able to say there is no God.

From a theoretical point of view I still cant say Evolution is not a belief. My brother is a Biology professor and he says Its not a theory its reality but then he is a big Catholic:)

I have a great wee book about the philosophy of science I'll gladly send it to you...really:)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
8 Jan 2011 #138
I'm still not able to say there is no God.

Are you able to say there are no honest politicians?
Go on, let's compromise, i will say there might be leprechauns ridding around on unicorns if you say there are no honest politicians :)

My brother is a Biology professor and he says Its not a theory its reality

My next question was honestly, who is the dogmatic one who talks to you about evolution?
I would have guessed a professor but hey, you are your brother's keeper.

he is a big Catholic:)

Double dogma :)
The Catholic church recognises evolution, they had their own investigators look in to it.

John Paul the second said:

"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points....Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies - which was neither planned nor sought - constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."

Catholic Church and evolution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution#Pope_John_Paul_II

Your brother probably told you that already but I thought because of who the OP is, it was worth a mention.

I have a great wee book about the philosophy of science I'll gladly send it to you...really:)

I think it is like anything in this world, the subject, is most of the time, secondary to the teacher.
Evolution has spirit stirring qualities which might in some ways be what religious men feel when in deep prayer.
Like contemplating your relative size to the universe, there is something godlike in it.
I just find it more gratifying that there is evidence that it really could be how it all works.
But I would be equally fascinated, were someone to disprove it.

As for the book, you could just tell me the name or give it to me next time you're in Krakow over a pint :)
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
8 Jan 2011 #139
No..its being implied by some bible basher that anyone who does not share his views must be mentally impaired...

It's because certain religious folk tend to be very narrow minded as well. They don't want to accept any possibility except what's in the Bible. The atheists are at the opposite end of that and resent their closed mindedness. The only logical response is to mirror it.
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Jan 2011 #140
There's a lot of truth in that. Most people in Europe are somewhere on a continuum between the two poles, but generally closer to the secular end. Religious when wanting a white wedding or buying a lotto ticket, secular when peventing or ending a pregnancy or going shopping on Sunday.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
8 Jan 2011 #141
Religious when wanting a white wedding or buying a lotto ticket, secular when peventing or ending a pregnancy or going shopping on Sunday.

Religion is not the same as believing in God...I believe there could be godlike beings in the universe somewhere, however I don't believe in the God who's in the Bible.

I don't need a religion to tell me when I can go shopping. That's should be up to shop owners and the amount of money I have.

Abortion should be up to the individual and although I wouldn't have one, no one should be prevented to have one if they choose it.
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Jan 2011 #142
Religion is not the same as believing in God

This is true. Some might say "a god" instead of "God", however

.I believe there could be godlike beings

complicates things. Many cultures (including European) believe in various entities (spirits, angels, call them whatever) as well as a supreme being. When that supreme being or those entities are described and worshipped, then it becomes religion.

There are so many religions in the world. Some deluded people believe that theirs is the only right one and all others are in error, others believe each is but a way of looking at the truth, and more and more people believe they are all just mythology. I prefer to keep my mind open. Providing they don't start telling me how to live, on the basis of their beliefs.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
8 Jan 2011 #143
I'm not sure if I believe what Europeans and other cultures do. There's just not enough evidence to convince me godlike beings are inhabiting earth. It is possible they could exist within the universe since it is so large.
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Jan 2011 #144
That sounds like the UFO paradox: one the one hand the universe is so vast that anything could be and probably is out there, but on the other hand, the chance is negligible that whatever is out there is at a similar enough stage of evolution to be able to (or want to) communicate with us.

The writers (more accurately storytellers, since it started as an oral thing) of Genesis seemed to believe that something existed, with that intriguing passage about "sons of gods". Muslims believe in 'djinns', a whole parallel set of beings living among us but somehow in a different dimension. Quantum physics may prove them right, and there are Muslim scientists who've risked their academic reputation to discuss this! Though I doubt it'll happen any time soon.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
8 Jan 2011 #145
That sounds like the UFO paradox: one the one hand the universe is so vast that anything could be and probably is out there, but on the other hand, the chance is negligible that whatever is out there is at a similar enough stage of evolution to be able to (or want to) communicate with us.

I have my own theory. They are out there building galaxies like hominid earthlings build subdivisions :)
Since the universe is so vast, they could be billions of light years away from here. Still, they exist, but without much impact on us. If they tried to contact us it would take so long for us to get the message there wouldn't be any point.

One day we could be a species not unlike theirs, (I like to call them "The Gods". That is what I have named their species) that is, if we figure some things out first.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
8 Jan 2011 #146
Barney wrote:

What evolution does is produce better results than religion but it is essentially a belief and it is justified by going to probability.

2 things:

1) Calling evolution a "belief" would be grounds to call essentially anything that is thought to be known in this world to be a "belief" as well.

Is the existence of gravity and the effect it has on objects on earth a belief?

Is fire being hot merely a belief or will a roaring fire give off heat every single time?

2) How does religion produce results?

Does believing in Zeus produce results? Does believing in Poseidon yield results? Does believing in Thor produce results? What about sun worship....any results from that?

Any results from Jesus Christ or Mohammed?
Barney 15 | 1,476
8 Jan 2011 #147
A belief is something that cant be disproved. If there is no possibility to disprove something it is a belief. Genetic investigation can be dismissed (no one has and I doubt if anyone will) the description that is evolution cannot be dismissed.

Most churches have given up trying to counter uncomfortable things from science because the logic is sound. Evolution doesnt have the same solid basis that is why the creationist nuts keep banging away at it.

Evolution works and produces results we can all see. Religion has produced results in the past just measured in a different way:)
I posted before about the church being a form of health insurance in pre health service days even offering a permanent place to retire to. The results the church supplied were of their time.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
8 Jan 2011 #148
barney wrote:

The results the church supplied were of their time.

now you're making a different claim.

"the church" is an organization of people. regardless of what good doings a church may do, it has nothing to do with belief or faith, it's getting off your butt and actually doing something real, something you can see for yourself. getting someone medical care is not a result of religion or faith, it's either the result of people wanting and willing to help others OR the result of people helping others for ingeniuous reasons such as gaining political clout.

this is nothing unique to "churches".

Religion has produced results in the past just measured in a different way:)

and now i'm back to my original question.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
8 Jan 2011 #149
it's either the result of people wanting and willing to help others OR the result of people helping others for ingeniuous reasons such as gaining political clout.

this is nothing unique to "churches".

Or as payment for liberating the world of infidels during the crusades.

I get your point though, the church down the road is real, the Vatican, it exists and the Pope is elected but you can't say the same of belief in God.

If we could elect a God, who would you choose? :)

A belief is something that cant be disproved.

Why do you think it couldn't be disproved?
Evolution myths: Evolution cannot be disproved
newscientist.com/article/dn13675-evolution-myths-evolution-cannot-be-disproved.html
wildrover 98 | 4,451
8 Jan 2011 #150
If we could elect a God, who would you choose?

Billy Connelly... he would sort the world out...


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