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An EU army. Impact on Poland


Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,792
14 Nov 2018 #31
It's a start....and even that small beginning is quite unbelievable for some! :)

Anyhow...have to go now..
Spike31 3 | 1,813
14 Nov 2018 #32
only two years back even what has been agreed now would had been unthinkable.

Sure it would: "refugee" crisis which has started the fall of Angela Merkel, a wave of terrorist attacks in Western Europe, Brexit, the rise of a Conservative government in Poland (which will btw. block such a project as an EU army), political changes in Austria and Italy, Trump presidency, and the rise of V4 and inception of Three Seas Initiative project...all of this has happened in just a last 3 years.

Let's see where we are in 10 years...

Yes, I cannot wait to see what happens next myself :-)

=========================================

Everything that could go wrong has gone wrong

~George Soros
Tacitus 2 | 1,373
14 Nov 2018 #33
only two years back even what has been agreed now would had been unthinkable.

Indeed. Until Brexit, the UK was always expected to veto such a proposition, that is no longer the case. Furthermore the presidency of Trump has proven to be a gamechanger. Many countries that previously wanted to rely on the USA (most notably the Eastern Europeans) are no longer willing to do so. It is no coincidence that they e.g. joined PESCO.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,053
14 Nov 2018 #34
Many countries that previously wanted to rely on the USA (most notably the Eastern Europeans) are no longer willing to do so.

We, the US taxpayers, do not want those "many countries" to rely on the USA, either. Please, tell them to go to hell, and that this is why we elected Trump.
johnny reb 47 | 7,049
14 Nov 2018 #35
Many countries that previously wanted to rely on the USA

The Milk Soppers got a kick in the ass by Trump now they want to take their ball and go home after they enjoyed milking the U.S.A. for all they could.

The Gravy Train is over !
Time to pony up or hit the road.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,053
14 Nov 2018 #36
I vote for "hit the road" and delete the White House phone number from your emergency speed dial.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Nov 2018 #37
rise of V4

What rise? It's a talking shop. The Czechs and Slovaks already made it very clear that the V4 isn't an alternative to the EU, and the Hungarians are too busy doing deals with Russia.

inception of Three Seas Initiative

A talking shop as well. It's meaningless when you consider the participants - Croatia, Slovenia, Czech Republic and Slovakia are under Austrian/German influence, Hungary is under Russian influence and the Baltic States are under Swedish/Finnish influence. No-one takes it seriously, it's simply designed as a chance for these countries to have some grand talking shop where they discuss issues that Western Europe doesn't particularly care about.

Conservative government in Poland

You mean a communist government that would block the formation of an EU army because it's not a new version of the Warsaw Pact.

Still, nationalist dreams are hilarious. One can only wonder what kind of excuses they would come up with after the Americans fail to help with a decisive Russian attack.
Lyzko 45 | 9,275
14 Nov 2018 #38
Merkel's still making her case for an EU army in which Germany would finally be playing a decisive role. Many though remain mired, indeed paralyzed, by memories of a German military presence in Occupied Europe during WWII.
Spike31 3 | 1,813
14 Nov 2018 #39
What rise? It's a talking shop

A "talking shop" which stopped the descent of illegal "refugees" on Central Europe. Can I have more "talking shops" like this one please :-)

Merkel's still making her case for an EU army in which Germany would finally be playing a decisive role

Merkel's day of glory are long gone. She made a huge political mistake in 2015 and she is paying for it now. Her voice, and indeed a voice of Germany, is not as strong as it used to be. So I think that this new "EU army" project will remain in a sphere of eurocrat wet dreams.

Bye, Mutti Merkel and thanks for strengthening Poland and the V4
Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
14 Nov 2018 #40
Few Europeans want Germans playing any part in a European army if it it is ever created.
We must all learn from history.
Lyzko 45 | 9,275
14 Nov 2018 #41
On the other hand, post-War and post-Wall Germans have apparently turned over a new leaf. I believe they ought to be given a chance to actively defend the freedoms they remain so intent on protecting.

We've got to bury the hatchet at some point, at least for practical purposes.
Ironside 53 | 12,425
14 Nov 2018 #42
The Czechs

can always change their mind, who cares about Slovaks.

Hungary is under Russian influence

Yeah sure they are, according our know all Scottish expert, enjoy your ..'knowledge'.. If they are under Russian influence Germany are Russia vassals. geez..

the Baltic States are under Swedish/Finnish influence.

Oh my goodness what do you not know? just stop it, you're exhausting..

@Tacitus
Well, Poland would rather relay on USA and NATO than anything else..
Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
14 Nov 2018 #43
On the other hand, post-War and post-Wall Germans have apparently turned over a new leaf

"Apparently",I'm not convinced.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Nov 2018 #44
can always change their mind, who cares about Slovaks.

Czechs won't change their mind for one simple reason: they know where the money lies. Czech people are pragmatic, they're not going to follow Poland's lead into the abyss.

Yeah sure they are

bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/2018-03-russian-built-nuclear-plant-in-hungary-faces-eu-lawsuits

Basic geopolitics, Ironside.

Few Europeans want Germans playing any part in a European army if it it is ever created.

Why? They've got a decent military tradition, they're not interested in offensive wars and they've got a powerful economy behind them. Exactly the type of ally you want.
Lyzko 45 | 9,275
14 Nov 2018 #45
Your right.

However, sooner or later, even a leopard has to learn to change its spots. Evolution, you know.
Darwin doubtless would have agreed:-)
Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
14 Nov 2018 #46
My problem is that I don' believe that the German Leopard has changed it's spots yet.....I may be wrong,but time will tell.
Ironside 53 | 12,425
14 Nov 2018 #47
Basic geopolitics, Ironside.

Don't talk to me like that Delphi. I well aware of those facts. I don't need this link and it doesn't change reality. As I said IF Hungary is under Russian influence then Germany are their vasal state. Meaning neither is true.

Czechs won't change their mind for one simple reason: they know where the money lies.

So IF that many part change their change their mind,. I don't expect them be less pragmatic in the future.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Nov 2018 #48
As I said IF Hungary is under Russian influence then Germany are their vasal state.

The difference is that Germany is big and strong enough to negotiate heavily with Russia. Hungary isn't, and that's the vital difference.

That nuclear power plant essentially binds Hungary to Russian energy for a lifetime.
Ironside 53 | 12,425
14 Nov 2018 #49
Depends on the details of their deal.
Lyzko 45 | 9,275
14 Nov 2018 #50
Geopolitically spot on!

Only, Hungary has been of late empowered by a super-nationalism not seen in that country easily since Admiral Horthy and Szillasy, and we know what monsters those Arrow Crossers turned out to be.
Spike31 3 | 1,813
14 Nov 2018 #51
On the other hand, post-War and post-Wall Germans have apparently turned over a new leaf.

I believe that this change was quite superficial and enforced on them after WWII.

Let's not forget about German mentality. Order them to be "tolerant" and they will seem to be the most tolerant nation on this planet. They will invite millions of illegals and pay for their stay.

But let's say the political climate suddenly change. The same people may open concentration camps for those new 'refugees' sooner than you can imagine.

Lyzko, if you like moderation Germany is not the place for you to be.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Nov 2018 #52
Except there's no evidence of Germany doing just that. Meanwhile, there's plenty of evidence of Poland keeping refugees in appalling conditions.
Lyzko 45 | 9,275
14 Nov 2018 #53
Agree to an extent, though there are as many exceptions to the "rule" as examples of it, in my experience with Germans and Germany.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
14 Nov 2018 #54
there's plenty of evidence of Poland keeping refugees in appalling conditions.

Where?
Crow 155 | 9,030
15 Nov 2018 #55
One can only wonder what kind of excuses they would come up with after the Americans fail to help with a decisive Russian attack.

delphe, I am surprised that you spread such an obvious delusions. Why would Russia desire to attack Poland? Why??? Russia is biggest country in the world and for sure don`t need additional resources. Even in times of Tzars and Soviets, Russia moved western on the first place in order to follow moves of western Europeans that always desired to swallow Poland. In that situation, Russia moved to take what can be taken and even then, firstly, to prevent western Europeans to came directly on Russian western border. Sure, there were periods of competition between Polish and Russian elites and movements eastern and western but, speaking in general, if western Europeans didn`t constantly move eastern to occupy Poland, Russia wouldn`t have interests to respond.

But in our time is different. Poland is part of NATO and EU. If, or rather when western Europe (ie Germany and France) move to grab Poland, Russia can`t do nothing. It will be internal NATO question. Won`t be another partition of Poland. Simple, Poland will vanish (annexed) from the map.

Or, God forbid, if start WW3, if western Europe manage to start it with Russia, Poland will be, as part of NATO, sacrificed for the greater good of western Europe and USA. In that case, yes sure, USA won`t mind to waste time on Poland. Even God wouldn't`t be able to help Poland. But that situation will again prevent Russian invasion. Who sane would send conventional army to walk thru nuclear-polluted wasteland.

That is why I constantly repeat here that Poland, same as Serbia, must be military neutral.

And why Poland isn`t militarily neutral?
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,053
15 Nov 2018 #56
When you guys are done designing Europe and planning WW3, please, leave the US alone. We don't care, we are broke, and we are too stupid to protect even ourselves. The US has lost its instinct of self-preservation, so find yourself another sucker nation and a sugar daddy. Maybe China. They have a lot of money and, as I read here, a lot higher IQ.
Crow 155 | 9,030
15 Nov 2018 #57
And its about time. US of today is much better then it was during madman Clitor but, what is enough of meddling is enough. Quite enough to us sane Europeans to have countries like Britain, France and Germany on continent and at least US should leave us to rest little bit. If US can`t help, better to go and look for its own business. Time is that we Serbs and Poles get more space on this continent. With us will come normalcy and peace.
Lyzko 45 | 9,275
15 Nov 2018 #58
Time will tell indeed, Milo!
Spike31 3 | 1,813
15 Nov 2018 #59
That is why I constantly repeat here that Poland, same as Serbia, must be military neutral.

Poland should be neutral as long as it is possible in face of aggression but should be able to face any potential aggressor.
Being military neutral is not the same as being disarmed.
In my opinion Poland should, and will, arm itself to a level where it becomes too hard to mess with by the neighbours ie. where the cost of attacking Poland would be too high compared to any possible benefits of such move.
Crow 155 | 9,030
16 Nov 2018 #60
Poland should be neutral as long as it is possible in face of aggression but should be able to face any potential aggressor.

You think official Poland can do that?

Neutral country
wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_country

A neutral country is a state which is neutral towards belligerents in a specific war, or holds itself as permanently neutral in all future conflicts (including avoiding entering into military alliances such as NATO).

Being military neutral is not the same as being disarmed.

Absolutely.


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