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The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland


jwojcie 2 | 763
22 Dec 2009 #181
Recent trail leads to Sweden. But it is unknown if citizen of Sweden was main addressee or only middle man...

For a wrought iron sign? Which was recovered. Take a welder about 2 hours to restore it. They were broke guys trying to make money.. no need to overreact.

Because it wasn't just "wrought iron sign" and because they knew this, they are facing ten years sentence (the most).
delphiandomine 87 | 18,442
22 Dec 2009 #182
I wish the sentences handed out there were on a comparison with the ones handed out in Poland, there might be a lot less crime.

Unfortunately, UK prisons are full to bursting. People don't want new prisons built near them (NIMBYism) and don't want to pay for them either - yet they want people sent to jail.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
22 Dec 2009 #183
delphiandomine

Poland has the highest prison population in the EU. People are actually waiting at home to serve their time as places become available.

Do you remember the special holding prison they built for "asylum seekers" in the UK. It cost £40,000.000 to build, it was open for a few months and was "holding" only 16 prisoners when they rioted and burnt it down.

Never mind, the tax payer can afford to build more, its only money.

The UK governement can give billions away in foriegn aid to despots who watch their own people starve and yet we have no money in the UK to build additional prisons to keep the scum off of the streets. I suppose its all about priorities.
yehudi 1 | 433
22 Dec 2009 #184
RubasznyRumcajs

Please translate the cartoon.
mafketis 24 | 9,081
22 Dec 2009 #185
"We found the sign(s)"

"Fvck, I don't think those are the right ones."
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
22 Dec 2009 #186
Dont forget to write to the embassy with the protest.
Harry
22 Dec 2009 #187
The museum don't need defending. This woman simply has no claim. She was commissioned and paid (in form of saving life of her family). Case closed. That's in real world. Not in your PC world though.

So you consider not being shot in the head to be payment for something. Fine, in that case I'm flying to Canada, buying a gun, pointing it at your head and telling you "If you sign over all your worldly possessions to me, I won't shoot you in the head." As far as you are concerned that will be a perfectly acceptable transaction for you: you get paid for your property.

In the real world telling somebody to do something if they want to stay alive is illegal and a criminal has no claim to any benefits resulting from their crime. But in your world I guess it is perfectly acceptable to do anything one wants to Jews, they're just untermenschen, right?

From a reading of that link, I think the museum's position is that anything that was left at the site and/or which came into the museum's possession is seen as historical evidence and not subject to return to anyone. They could phrase it better certainly.

Their position is that the paintings have never been the property of the painter. That has always been their position.

The pictures were not actually left at the site, six of the seven were purchased by the museum in 1963 and the remaining one in 1977 (i.e. after the museum knew that the painter wanted her paintings back, which means they can not claim to be a good-faith purchaser).

If the link is to be believed Roma survivors and Roma organizations are siding with the museum (and their wishes are probably stronger than her claim for me).

Some Roma organisations are on the side of the museum and some are on the side of the painter, just as some Jews are on the side of the museum and some are on the side of the painter.

You might disagree with the museum's current position but it's very different from what some commie official said over thirty years ago and your refusal to state it in any other way is disingenuous at best.

Their position is that the painter has no claim to the paintings because the paintings were never her property. Which is identical to the position they had over thirty years ago.

It's nothing plastic about me. Nationality-wise or body-parts-wise. I know it annoys you to no end.

You live in Canada as a Canadian and have sworn an oath of allegiance to the Queen of Canada. You are not Polish, you are Canadian and a Plastic Pole. While that fact doesn't annoy me at all, I know it really burns you.
Bzibzioh
22 Dec 2009 #188
In the real world telling somebody to do something if they want to stay alive is illegal and a criminal has no claim to any benefits resulting from their crime.

Harry, you (purposefully?) forgetting that was during the war. Nothing was normal or legal. Don't try to be cute and compare war circumstances with peaceful times.

But in your world I guess it is perfectly acceptable to do anything one wants to Jews, they're just untermenschen, right?

You see, that kind of argument makes that nobody wants to talk to you anymore. And makes you look like an ass that you really are. Your heavy-handed bullying attempt wont work on me.

You are not Polish, you are Canadian

We had this conversation already. Now you just bore me silly.

I have a Christmas tree to decorate so bye.
mafketis 24 | 9,081
22 Dec 2009 #189
In the real world telling somebody to do something if they want to stay alive is illegal and a criminal has no claim to any benefits resulting from their crime. But in your world I guess it is perfectly acceptable to do anything one wants to Jews, they're just untermenschen, right?

Then you could make the claim that her portraits made her an accomplice in persecution of the Roma and therefore she had no right to any benefits from them (like receiving the portraits back).
Bzibzioh
22 Dec 2009 #190
Bit similar situation here
cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16038&Itemid=86

"The book is inspired by and dedicated to Polak's Dutch-born mother, Celien, who was imprisoned as a teen in Theresienstadt. Her father, Jo Spier, a noted artist, drew propagandadrawings for the Nazis, and a sense of guilt lingered in the family over their survival."

I wonder whether the family would have the nerve to claim those drawings?
Harry
22 Dec 2009 #191
Then you could make the claim that her portraits made her an accomplice in persecution of the Roma and therefore she had no right to any benefits from them (like receiving the portraits back).

How could you claim that? In what way is it persecuting a person to paint their picture?! Your statement that Babbitt could have been an accomplice to the Nazis is even more offensive than the museum's statement that Dr Mengele has a claim to the pictures while she has none!
mafketis 24 | 9,081
22 Dec 2009 #192
I said the argument could be made, not that I make it.

Look, the portraits were to be used as evidence in support for nazi theories about the genetic inferiority of Roma. To the extent that she did what Mengele wanted, she was in fact complicit in persecution of the Roma (yes she was also a victim herself, but that doesn't mean she wasn't complicit in victimising others, even if she was only doing so to survive).

I'm not criticising her, I'm pretty sure I would have done exactly the same thing in her place. But there are moral and ethical arguments that the historical importance of the pictures outweighs her rights as an artist, especially since these weren't an expression of her artistic vision, but produced specifically to be a very small cog in the nazi propoganda machine.

This is not a pure case of victim (babbit) against victimizer (museum), but a much messier case with gray areas all the way around. The museum was forced to make a legal argument about a case where the law is essentially useless. So it made the argument that it could find, which was pretty ugly, but the museum's case is stronger than the legal argument in my opinion.

And she's dead, so the argument is moot now.
Harry
22 Dec 2009 #193
I said the argument could be made, not that I make it.

Point taken.

Look, the portraits were to be used as evidence in support for nazi theories about the genetic inferiority of Roma.

We know that how?
gypsyadvice.com/gypsynews/2009/08/dina-gottliebova-babbitt-dies-at-86.html
This site says "Josef Mengele, the infamous Nazi doctor who performed hideous experiments on prisoners, heard of her talents and ordered her to paint portraits as mementos for his racist theories." 'Mementos' are not something used to support a theory!

there are moral and ethical arguments that the historical importance of the pictures outweighs her rights as an artist,

When she first asked for the pictures back, the museum wasn't even displaying the originals and still doesn't always display them. Ms Babbitt wanted the paintings to be put on display permanently and wanted them displayed in the USA.

This is not a pure case of victim (babbit) against victimizer (museum), but a much messier case with gray areas all the way around. The museum was forced to make a legal argument about a case where the law is essentially useless.

Actually there is plenty of law regarding this: legally those paintings are the property of the painter and the museum can not even claim to be a good-faith purchaser of them.

And she's dead, so the argument is moot now.

Her legal heir begs to differ. Stolen property doesn't stop being stolen property just because the person who it was stolen from dies.
lesser 4 | 1,311
22 Dec 2009 #194
My God the polish are lenient, they would have got at least 80 hours community service or a 6 month suspended sentence in the UK!!!

I think that they should be fined financially (if this is first time), ten years prison sound ridiculous. I bet that penalty for rape is way less severe. Silly states, silly laws.

Harry:
In the real world telling somebody to do something if they want to stay alive is illegal and a criminal has no claim to any benefits resulting from their crime.

Harry, you (purposefully?) forgetting that was during the war. Nothing was normal or legal. Don't try to be cute and compare war circumstances with peaceful times.

Harry have a point here. Every legal system have also special laws if war happen. The rest is unchanged. I strongly doubt whether there was such legislation in II RP or III Reich.

Nuremberg Tribunal was idiotic because instead to handle Germany to proper hands, international community decided to create shady political court. National Socialist war criminals should be sentenced according to laws of Third Reich. They would all get death penalty without any doubts. Same about Soviet butchers, anybody who bothered to read Soviet Constitution know how illegal was their rule.

Look, the portraits were to be used as evidence in support for nazi theories about the genetic inferiority of Roma. To the extent that she did what Mengele wanted, she was in fact complicit in persecution of the Roma (yes she was also a victim herself, but that doesn't mean she wasn't complicit in victimising others, even if she was only doing so to survive).

This is good point. But on other hand what is the right of museum to these pictures? Personally I think that all such camps should be razed to the ground right after all investigations were over. This is just a reason to stir ethnic conflicts. Every little disagreement over anything is taken out of proportion by media which search for sensation. Beside of that, less evil people see, less evil they may become. One could say a lot about negative influence of TV or computer games. This event push border of "absolute evil" too far for an average people.
Filios1 8 | 1,336
22 Dec 2009 #195
and had most of the population of Poland looking out for them....Not the brightest people in Poland i suspect...!

Look, you are very naiive, it is almost embarassing... These guys were NOT stupid or impoverished, or drunks...
They had a buyer that would have payed good money for this sign. Some kind of neo Nazi or simply a very wealthy collector who wanted to show off to his friends. Most likely this buyer was located outside of Europe, probably in South America. You'd be surprised how many Nazis escaped to Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, with gold worth millions.

It was cut into 4 pieces for easy transport over such a long distance, not cut for scrap metal. Why such an elaborate theft, with such a long drive if it were just going to be used for scrap metal? They could do better for scrap metal if they were to pull away some railroad tracks.
scrappleton - | 830
22 Dec 2009 #196
These guys sentenced to 10 years will make them martyrs in a sense to Neo Nazis. Just get them more excited.

The "Scream" has been stolen several times out of Norway.. I don't think they got 10 years in prison.
f stop 25 | 2,513
22 Dec 2009 #197
how were they discovered? Trying to sell or just running their mouths?
mafketis 24 | 9,081
22 Dec 2009 #198
These guys sentenced to 10 years will make them martyrs in a sense to Neo Nazis. Just get them more excited.

And just who the f*ck cares? All it would show is that neo-nazis like theives, hardly surprising.

The "Scream" has been stolen several times out of Norway.. I don't think they got 10 years in prison.

Note to self: Never hire Norwegians to guard ...... anything, really.
scrappleton - | 830
22 Dec 2009 #199
And just who the f*ck cares?

Uhhh.. probably Neo Nazis.
Filios1 8 | 1,336
22 Dec 2009 #200
martyrs in a sense to Neo Nazis

Why? Why does everyone automatically assume these men are Neo-Nazis or anti-Semites? It is once again, this Jewish mindset of turning this from a crime for profit, into something much more profound, an anti-Semetic act, one which has the entire Jewish community lock arms, once again. Those terrible Poles!

But they surely cant be simple criminals, looking to make money! Right?!
They couldn't have found a contact who was interested in buying, when they were ready to steal. No, that can't be... This is an direct attack against all Jews and Holocaust survivors. It is a despicable neo-Nazi act!

lol, how naiive of all of you to fall for that Israeli garbage...
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
22 Dec 2009 #201
Scrap metal? Pffft...why would somebody steal a sign and sell it for scrap metal when they could sell it for thousands, if not millions of moneys?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525
22 Dec 2009 #202
Why does everyone automatically assume these men are Neo-Nazis or anti-Semites?

I actually wonder to as the polish police said officially that the culprits aren't neo-nazis nor do they harbor such thoughts....
Ironside 49 | 10,809
23 Dec 2009 #203
What would someone do with it and why would they want it?

sell it in the scrap-yard and spend money for alcoholic drinks!
TheOther 5 | 3,758
23 Dec 2009 #204
the polish police said officially that the culprits aren't neo-nazis

Who knows. Maybe they just want to avoid the impression that there actually ARE neo-nazis and anti-semites roaming freely in Poland...

lousy fokker

Glad you agree with me... :)
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
23 Dec 2009 #205
Who knows. Maybe they just want to avoid the impression that there actually ARE neo-nazis and anti-semites roaming freely in Poland...

It sounds more like they wanted to send it somewhere and get some money for it. More money than a scrap yard would give. Filios is spot on. It was more about getting money, less about politics.

I am sure they had some sneaky way they would get paid after they sent it.
f stop 25 | 2,513
23 Dec 2009 #206
anyone knows HOW were they caught??
wildrover 98 | 4,451
23 Dec 2009 #207
Seems the Policja were acting upon information...in other words somebody close to the gang turned em in for the reward money..
scottie1113 7 | 898
23 Dec 2009 #208
Yeah, but in my classes today they all said the informant turned down the reward. My question is, who was this mysterious Swedish contact?
mafketis 24 | 9,081
23 Dec 2009 #209
For the record, I wouldn't be surprised if the mystery swede wasn't a Pole expelled in 1968 (largely an inter-party fight, in which unfortunately a lot of innocent bystanders were collateral damage). I also wouldn't be surprised if it were a neo-nazi (probably a bigger problem in Sweden than Poland) or an apolitical control freak who gets off on the idea of having access to things that no one esle does. In other words, whoever it turns out to be, you likely heard it from me first.

And, again, for the record, Polish neo-nazis officially qualify as the stupidest forms of life on earth, liable to lose a pub quiz against a team made up of a box of hair, a dead guy and a fly rescued from someone's beer - the nazis hated slavs almost as much as jews and made it abundantly clear that that they were next after the jews and roma and queers and crips.

In conclusion, by and large with welcome exceptions, people suck and do stupid, horrible things all the time, no wonder God wanted to drown us all before s/he wimped out.
f stop 25 | 2,513
23 Dec 2009 #210
Call me a cynic, but with the amount of attention this generated, maybe they didn't mind so much getting caught? If I were them, I'd be looking for worthy platform right now - against traumatizing children by taking them to concentration camps school trips? high heating prices? immigration reform?


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