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The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland


Sokrates 8 | 3,346
21 Dec 2009 #151
and I believe that cutting it to pieces it's the fault of lack of space in the trunk

The lack of space in the trunk is the biggest evidence of Polish anti-semitism, they had a small trunk deliberately, if the sign was not related to Jews they'd have a bigger one.
Bzibzioh
21 Dec 2009 #152
Alternatively you can simply admit that your standard knee-jerk reactions (i.e. 'Jews have no rights, they are all scum' and 'any time a non-Pole says anything bad about anything Polish, I must automatically and unquestioningly support that Polish thing') are all that you base your statement on

Alternatively you can stop bore me silly. It's so grotesque I wont bother to address your utter nonsense.
Harry
21 Dec 2009 #153
What a wonderful excuse for completely failing to address the fact that you side with those who claim that the rights of Nazi war criminals are superior to those of their victims. Or at least you do so when the victims are Jews, no doubt you wouldn't if the victims were Poles.

I will ask again: can you perhaps explain why the museum considers the ownership rights of Dr Mengele to be superior to those of the artist who created the work? They very clearly do consider that to be the case, hence their statements "if anyone has a right to these paintings, it's Dr. Mengele" and "the portraits of Gypsies made in the camp by Mrs. Dina Gottliebova-Babbitt have never been her property".
f stop 25 | 2,513
21 Dec 2009 #154
First time I read about it, I thought it was funny - like reading a story about idiot thieves. We made so much more out of this then it really deserved.

On the other hand, taking that sign took a lot of balls. And, I hope one day all those concentration camps can be dismantled, so we stop dragging our schoolchildren to them for field trips. Enough already.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
21 Dec 2009 #155
I am impressed.

The Polish police cannot be that bad then

You think?
"It's the biggest failure of Polish Police", as one Israeli politician said 7 hours after the theft.
Bzibzioh
21 Dec 2009 #156
What a wonderful excuse for completely failing to address the fact that you side with those who claim that the rights of Nazi war criminals are superior to those of their victims. Or at least you do so when the victims are Jews, no doubt you wouldn't if the victims were Poles.

You imagine yourself as saying frightfully cool things and behave in an autocratic way and giving me a hard time. When will you finally realize that your silly provocations are lost on me? I've switched myself off to it and started looking for better things a long time ago.
yehudi 1 | 433
21 Dec 2009 #157
"It's the biggest failure of Polish Police", as one Israeli politician said 7 hours after the theft.

A bit of overstatement, no question. But you should know that there's a habit among Israeli politicians, even when criticizing eachother, to use strong language and overstate their point. It's a style of talking which annoys me, but since I'm used to it I know how to interpret it. Don't go quoting every statement by every Israeli and make too much out of it. It's not Moses talking from Sinai. It's just a guy commenting for some TV reporter.

In any case, if this is the worst failure of the Polish Police then you have a pretty good police force.
Bzibzioh
21 Dec 2009 #158
A bit of overstatement, no question. But you should know that there's a habit among Israeli politicians, even when criticizing eachother, to use strong language and overstate their point.

Fair point but most peoples take all TV reports literally and the negative message tend to stick.
Harry
21 Dec 2009 #159
You imagine yourself as saying frightfully cool things and behave in an autocratic way and giving me a hard time. When will you finally realize that your silly provocations are lost on me? I've switched myself off to it and started looking for better things a long time ago.

And another post in which you completely fail to address the issues and instead limit yourself purely to comments about me and about yourself. Very clearly you can not explain why the museum considers the ownership rights of Dr Mengele to be superior to those of the artist who created the work and have no idea how to defend the museum but you still know that you must defend it! So instead you claim that it is all just a 'provocation'. I've often wondered why Poles (and Plastic Poles such as yourself) so often call things 'provocations': do you really think that you need to be provoked before you do the indefensible?
Bzibzioh
21 Dec 2009 #160
(and Plastic Poles such as yourself)

It's nothing plastic about me. Nationality-wise or body-parts-wise. I know it annoys you to no end.

Very clearly you can not explain why the museum considers the ownership rights of Dr Mengele to be superior to those of the artist who created the work and have no idea how to defend the museum but you still know that you must defend it!

The museum don't need defending. This woman simply has no claim. She was commissioned and paid (in form of saving life of her family). Case closed. That's in real world. Not in your PC world though.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
21 Dec 2009 #161
thenews.pl

21.12.2009 18:38

Four of the five men who are alleged to have stolen the Auschwitz "Arbeit macht frei" sign were interrogated by prosecutors today. If guilty they face up to ten years in prison.

My God the polish are lenient, they would have got at least 80 hours community service or a 6 month suspended sentence in the UK!!!
OP jonni 16 | 2,485
21 Dec 2009 #162
Avalon

Have you seen them on TV, being dragged from the van by masked police? They are taking this very seriously.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
21 Dec 2009 #163
If i am right about this , and these clowns are just a bunch of guys trying to sell some scrap metal to earn some Christmas beer money , then they really did pick the wrong target..! There must be tons of metal gates hanging around and rusting outside disused factories all over Poland , but no , these muppets decided to steal a lump of metal that made headlines all over the world , and had most of the population of Poland looking out for them....Not the brightest people in Poland i suspect...!
Vincent 9 | 836 Moderator
21 Dec 2009 #164
these clowns are just a bunch of guys trying to sell some scrap metal to earn some Christmas beer money

Would have thought with the value of the scrap, they could just about buy a round of drinks. If it was scrap they were after, then there must have been larger and more profitable targets.

Due to the risk evolved and the the distance the sign was recovered from the scene of the crime, I would think they must have had a buyer for it. Someone who regarded it worth a lot more than just scrap.
OP jonni 16 | 2,485
21 Dec 2009 #165
Vincent

I think the same. According to the BBC they'd cut it into three parts, one word in each part. Maybe this means they hoped for three buyers, or they were going to send one piece back to the museum and ask for ransom for the rest.
mafketis 24 | 9,093
21 Dec 2009 #166
Very clearly you can not explain why the museum considers the ownership rights of Dr Mengele to be superior to those of the artist who created the work

The Mengele remark was unfortunate, but it was from 1973 and there's no trace of it on the current museum position link.

From a reading of that link, I think the museum's position is that anything that was left at the site and/or which came into the museum's possession is seen as historical evidence and not subject to return to anyone. They could phrase it better certainly.

They could also make the point that the portraits were done without the consent of the subjects and doubtless she was cooperating with the persecution of the Roma in the camp (under duress and in a desperate situation herself, but still....) If the link is to be believed Roma survivors and Roma organizations are siding with the museum (and their wishes are probably stronger than her claim for me).

You might disagree with the museum's current position but it's very different from what some commie official said over thirty years ago and your refusal to state it in any other way is disingenuous at best.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
21 Dec 2009 #167
It's a sign, a piece of wood, right?...Made by the hated and evil Germans, right?...It's gone...Who cares?
Vincent 9 | 836 Moderator
21 Dec 2009 #168
were going to send one piece back to the museum and ask for ransom for the rest.

Could be that as well, but I can imagine it would be very risky picking up the ransom money :)
Like someone else said, I think they just cut it up to make it easy for traveling.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312
21 Dec 2009 #169
She was commissioned and paid

She also rejected to take the paintings when she was originally approached back then.

Another thing...
She didn't paint those out of free will and then someone stole it from her.
She was ordered to do so by a fvcking butcher...
f stop 25 | 2,513
21 Dec 2009 #170
I'm too ADD to read through all this, but it looks to me like you are arguing what belonged to whom before the WWII. Are you serious?

And wait, the kicker is that the original topic was a work of art itself..., of sorts.. the SIGN.
Bzibzioh
22 Dec 2009 #171
I'm too ADD to read through all this, but it looks to me like you are arguing what belonged to whom before the WWII.

And to me looks like you enjoy a blessed state of ignorance.
f stop 25 | 2,513
22 Dec 2009 #172
hey, bzibzi - if I did, I would not be asking these 'pointed' questions.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,386
22 Dec 2009 #173
who if anyone has copyright to the sign ?

i would have expected to see some photos of the now famous words... scrawled above a doorway or two to work premises. such is the nature of humour.
f stop 25 | 2,513
22 Dec 2009 #174
I would like to post it above my son's bedroom, but I have to find a less recognizable variation of it.
For obvious reasons.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
22 Dec 2009 #175
Have you tried a cattle prod...they work very well..?
f stop 25 | 2,513
22 Dec 2009 #176
I'd rather that was some kind of reference to the concentration camp, not an advice of frustrated parent.
polomintz 2 | 46
22 Dec 2009 #177
its bloody terrible how they done that - if my great grandfather was alive to day and heard that he would probably say - those guys that done that instead of them going to jail they should go to auschwitz and suffer what those guys have been through during the war!!
f stop 25 | 2,513
22 Dec 2009 #178
Off with their heads!
scrappleton - | 830
22 Dec 2009 #179
they should go to auschwitz and suffer what those guys have been through during the war!!

For a wrought iron sign? Which was recovered. Take a welder about 2 hours to restore it. They were broke guys trying to make money.. no need to overreact.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
22 Dec 2009 #180
jonni

Have you seen them on TV, being dragged from the van by masked police? They are taking this very seriously.

I take justice very seriously. When the UK courts send a man to prison for 3 years for beating up the burgular who threatened his family with a knife and the burgular with 50 previous offences walks free, it just shows you have low the British system has sunk. I wish the sentences handed out there were on a comparison with the ones handed out in Poland, there might be a lot less crime.


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