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Pokłosie - should the film have received funding from Polish state coffers?


Varsovian 92 | 634
30 Oct 2012 #1
Context - it's a film about Jedwabne.

Having worked briefly with Dariusz Jabłoński - the film's producer - I have every respect for him. I also think it is difficult to make an artistically-viable film about such a complicated topic without necessarily having to make painful shortcuts. I mean, for goodness sake, just think about every film dramatization of a book you've read.

However, I feel this film went too far in portraying the Polish people involved in this nefarious massacre of 40 Jews as representatives of an ethnic group whose rabid anti-semitism was fired up by the Jews' historic guilt for killing Christ (!!) and had nothing to do with complicated inter-communal feuding linked with collaboration by some Jews with the recently-departed Bolshevik occupiers (who had slaughtered Polish resistance fighters; but Jewish Poles also suffered under the Russians ...). To be fair to Tomasz Goss, he did report more of this background than the film-makers, including Jews being paraded around having to hold a bust of Lenin. [Ironic, seeing as he had massive complexes about not being anywhere near as Jewish as most of his comrades and came out with outrageously racist comments about Russians, read Volkogonov for details.] Also featuring a crucifixion in modern-day Poland (2000!!) is frankly absurd.

Perhaps it's not surprising that the main funding came from Russia, which relentlessly churns out anti-Polish propaganda.

But my only question is: Should the Polish tax payer fund a film project of this type, which goes over the top in blackening Poland's international image?
Harry
30 Oct 2012 #2
this nefarious massacre of 40 Jews

According to the IPN (i.e. the official Polish governmental body charged with investigating Nazi crimes committed in Poland), there were not 40 victims: there were three hundred and forty victims. Are you actually trying to be the same as the holocaust deniers who claim that only a couple of hundred thousand Jews died during WWII?

representatives of an ethnic group whose rabid anti-semitism was fired up by the Jews' historic guilt for killing Christ (!!)

Would you like to claim that Poles were the only ethnic group in the world which had no members at all who were rabidly and irrationally anti-semitic? No? So you must agree that portraying some Poles as being such person is entirely accurate.

Should the Polish tax payer fund a film project of this type, which goes over the top in blackening Poland's international image?

The blacking of Poland's image comes from people who claim to be Polish and claim that ten times fewer Jews died during Holocaust-related events than the number who actually died. Does that description sound like anybody we know?
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
30 Oct 2012 #3
I'm no Holocaust denier. Relations of mine by marriage died en masse. I thought it was 340 actually.

Stick to the question: Do you think the Polish taxpayer should fund a film that is biased (in a bizarre way too) against the image of the Polish nation?
Harry
30 Oct 2012 #4
I'm no Holocaust denier.

Why do you claim that the death toll at Jedwabne was some 90% lower than the official figure?
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
30 Oct 2012 #5
Please stick to the question
Harry
30 Oct 2012 #6
Fine: does the film accurately state that at least 340 Jews were murdered by Polish inhabitants of Jedwabne and its environs? If yes, it plays a valuable role in countering the revisionist rubbish spread by people who harm the image of Poland. If no, or if it claims that the majority of the population of Jedwabne were anything other than passive during the pogrom, then it does nothing to help and should therefore not have received funding from the Polish taxpayer.

Now perhaps you can tell us why you claim only 40 Jews were murdered during this pogrom?
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
30 Oct 2012 #7
I don't.

Yes it does show the Poles involved in the massacre. And it says they would do it again, given the chance. And that Poles are like this.

So, you're in favour of funding for this over, say, more money for the cancer hospitals that are saying to new patients - "Please come back next year, as the government's so incompetent that we've run out of money"
Harry
30 Oct 2012 #8
I don't.

You say in the first post of this thread "this nefarious massacre of 40 Jews". The official death toll is at least 340. Why do you claim only 40 were murdered?

Yes it does show the Poles involved in the massacre. And it says they would do it again, given the chance. And that Poles are like this.

All Poles or some Poles? If it portrays all Poles as being involved, it is as worthless as a film which claims Poles had nothing to do with the events at Jedwabne. If it reflects reality, it is worth funding.

So, you're in favour of funding for this over, say, more money for the cancer hospitals that are saying to new patients - "Please come back next year, as the government's so incompetent that we've run out of money"

I'd certainly prefer to see this film being funded over the Catholic church paying no tax and the likes of Father Director getting chauffeured around in Maybachs. Or would you happily say "Please come back next year, as the government's given the money for your treatment to the Lux Veritatis Foundation"? BTW, there is nothing stopping you from personally paying for the cancer treatment of a patient which the Polish state can't afford to pay for.
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
30 Oct 2012 #9
Harry's excellent idea for funding the Polish national health service - go find a sick person and pay for her. Wow, the intellect!
Harry
30 Oct 2012 #10
a) I have answered all your questions about the Jedwabne events, kindly answer mine: why do you claim only 40 Jews were murdered when in reality at least 340 Jews were murdered?

b) If you think that the government is not spending enough money on something, whether it be cancer treatment or film making or disable lesbian dwarf juggling, you are perfectly free to put your hand into your own pocket and pay out additional funds.

c) It's probably best if I don't make any comment on the intellect of a man who thought that he could get away with claiming here that only 40 Jews were murdered at Jedwabne.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
30 Oct 2012 #11
I feel this film went too far in portraying the Polish people involved in this nefarious massacre of 40 Jews

Now perhaps you can tell us why you claim only 40 Jews were murdered during this pogrom?

I don't.

You clearly did Varsovian.
poland_
30 Oct 2012 #12
Having worked briefly with Dariusz Jabłoński - the film's producer - I have every respect for him.

You do seem to name drop a lot - Varsovian.

Perhaps it's not surprising that the main funding came from Russia, which relentlessly churns out anti-Polish propaganda.

?

But my only question is: Should the Polish tax payer fund a film project of this type, which goes over the top in blackening Poland's international image?

Public funding is an essential factor in maintaining and developing sustainable national and European audiovisual and content both culturally and economically.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
30 Oct 2012 #13
However, I feel this film went too far in portraying the Polish people involved in this nefarious massacre of 40 Jews

Could you explain why you made such an intentional error? Could it be like your other posts, you have a distinct anti-Jewish agenda?

So, you're in favour of funding for this over, say, more money for the cancer hospitals that are saying to new patients - "Please come back next year, as the government's so incompetent that we've run out of money"

I think it's obvious that you want such events hushed up as much as possible.
Harry
30 Oct 2012 #14
Could you explain why you made such an intentional error? Could it be like your other posts, you have a distinct anti-Jewish agenda?

And why is he now repeatedly ducking the question? I wonder.

I think it's obvious that you want such events hushed up as much as possible.

And clearly a Poland which cares about its international image is a Poland which spends state funds on a film which tells the truth, warts and all, about what happened at Jedwabne.
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
30 Oct 2012 #15
Hushed up?
Weird.
Anti-Semitic? Moi - weird and disgusting.

The problem is that I see fault where fault lies. I have been called a trendy leftie, gay, heterosexist, a woolly-minded liberal, a Nazi, an anti-Semite, a nigger-lover (excuse my turn of phrase), a Catholic hater, a Bible-bashing Christian.

Every time, the insult (open or implied) has reflected the agenda of the person making the allegation. They have been people wishing to simplify to make an extreme point.

I think for example that former Commies should be banned from public life. The Polishforums mob think these scum who sold out are upright members of society and defend them to the hilt. I think people like Rydzyk are a disgrace to the Church and should be kicked out. I think that there is no harm in raising difficult subjects as long as the conversation is open and fair. I'm anti-extremist. extremists try to pass for reasonable sometimes.

You mention my alleged anti-Semitism - I presume you deny the obvious fact that the immoral behavior of some people from one ethnic group results in the whole group being tarred with the same brush by the unthinking. The history of mankind points the other way. Just think of Anglo-Irish relations.

The pro-Bolshevik behaviour of some Jews in 1939-41 at a time when Polish resistance fighters were being effectively crushed by the Russians in no way excuses any so-called "collective revenge" i.e. savage brutality like at Jedwabne. Just like the Jewish-dominated Bolshevik leadership at the time of the Russian Revolution, Spartacists and Bela Kun putsch doesn't excuse Hitler's brutal anti-Semitism. But I make the point - and it is a key point - that the film blames the Church in a facile way.

That sort of brushing under the carpet is a Tom & Jerry approach to history. Except that Tom & Jerry has more depth. And evidently more depth than you with your facile remarks and insults.
Harry
30 Oct 2012 #16
The problem is that I see fault where fault lies.

Thank you for that. Now, perhaps you can tell us why you claim only 40 Jews were murdered at Jedwabne when in reality at least 340 Jews were murdered?
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
30 Oct 2012 #17
I think it was 340, wasn't it?
Might be wrong though.
Ironside 50 | 11,489
30 Oct 2012 #18
According to the IPN (i.e. the official Polish governmental body charged with investigating Nazi crimes committed in Poland), there were not 40 victims: there were three hundred and forty victims.

I wonder do they really know number of victims. They never properly investigated place of alleged crime. That is actually negligence, politically motivated negligence.

OK I have seen that movie. I think it is biggest ***** anybody could come up with. Director has more understanding of Commie Political Police than Polish village(judging by his movies with UB officer as a hero).

No money from Polish taxpayer's should be given on this gutter swept.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
22 Nov 2012 #19
Should the Polish tax payer fund a film project of this type, which goes over the top in blackening Poland's international image?

yes, I rather have the money spend on such film, then on some useless stuff the Polish administration spends it on. There is a LOT of public money wasted as you well know. I think it is time the uncover the truth about some parts of Polish history, especially the parts, which are shameful. This film is part of that process, not about all Poles.
polonius 54 | 420
22 Nov 2012 #20
The mistatement that 40 Jews were killed at Jedwabne apparently comes from one of two sources: 1) typo-wise the numeral 3 got lopped off of 340 , the official number of victims; 2) the author confused the number of victims with the 40 Jedwabne townsfolk put on trial after the war for their part in the massacre.

The notorious 'Gross lie' alleged that Jedwabne's 1,600 Jews were burnt in a barn by the Polish half of the town's population. Although that lie has long been overturned, that figure keeps popping up in vairous publicaitons to this day.
Ironside 50 | 11,489
22 Nov 2012 #21
yes, I rather have the money spend on such film, then on some useless stuff the Polish administration spends it on.

I would rather see that money spend on some movie about Wolyn massacre( tell me aphro are Ukies still see themselves as victims?) or some decent movie about WWII heroes fighting against Soviets.
Harry
22 Nov 2012 #22
Seeing as you choose to pay zero tax in Poland, you don't get a say in what the Polish tax-payer's money is spent on.

I think it is time the uncover the truth about some parts of Polish history, especially the parts, which are shameful. This film is part of that process, not about all Poles.

Yep, and as a Polish tax-payer, I'm happy that some of the money I pay went on this film.

The notorious 'Gross lie' alleged that Jedwabne's 1,600 Jews were burnt in a barn by the Polish half of the town's population. Although that lie has long been overturned, that figure keeps popping up in vairous publicaitons to this day.

Very much like the lie which you love to repeat here that the massacre was actually carried out by Germans.

Well I'm going to repeat that lie

How nice of you to admit that the claim that Germans carried out the massacre in Jedwabne is nothing but a lie.

What makes you a bitter and twisted sad individual with an agenda.

I'm neither bitter nor twisted nor sad. I have nothing to be sad or bitter or twisted about: life here is very good thanks, I have a job I like which pays me enough for me to never have to worry about money and I have a wonderful partner. Sorry for having to tell you that and thus adding yet more jealously to the bitterness which makes the sad pathetic life you have and hate so much even more unbearable.
Ironside 50 | 11,489
22 Nov 2012 #23
I'm neither bitter nor twisted nor sad. I have nothing to be sad or bitter or twisted about: life here is very good thanks, I have a job I like which pays me enough for me to never have to worry about money and I have a wonderful partner. Sorry for having to tell you that and thus adding yet more jealously to the bitterness which makes the sad pathetic life you have and hate so much even more unbearable.

Well Harry I don't hate you. I just don't like you. Not for any imaginable and unimaginable goodies or riches in your life but because of your views. You think that such movies (by the way have you seen it?) are good for Poland?I think not - that is just slander and propaganda - all based on imagination and confabulation? Such events never took place in Poland. You think that you know better and that makes you sad twisted and pathetic prick in my eyes and in the eyes of any honest man.

How nice of you to admit that the claim that Germans carried out the massacre in Jedwabne is nothing but a lie.

I was being sarcatic and you know it. Lie like in "lie"!!!!!!
Harry
22 Nov 2012 #24
Such events never took place in Poland.

It probably would be better if the film stuck closely to the fact rather than being a work of fiction 'based on real events'.

You think that such movies (by the way have you seen it?) are good for Poland?

Yes I do. But I think that a film based closely on the real events would be far better for Poland.

I was being sarcatic and you know it. Lie like in "lie"!!!!!!

The simple fact is that Poles carried out the Jedwabne massacre and the more light is shone on that fact, the fewer Poles who will continue to repeat the old lie that the massacre was not the work of Poles.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
22 Nov 2012 #25
I would rather see that money spend on some movie about Wolyn massacre

why not, I don't have a problem with that. After all I am paying taxes in Poland and you don't, do you?

tell me aphro are Ukies still see themselves as victims?)

you have to ask the Ukies, whoever they are. I don't claim to speak on behalf of all Ukrainians:D.

Yep, and as a Polish tax-payer, I'm happy that some of the money I pay went on this film.

Me too:D
sofijufka 2 | 191
22 Nov 2012 #26
The simple fact is that Poles carried out the Jedwabne massacre and the more light is shone on that fact, the fewer Poles who will continue to repeat the old lie that the massacre was not the work of Poles.

the lie is, that ONLY Poles did it.... Polish peaseants during the Geman [not NAZI] occupation have a lot of guns... ? "Scuse me, who could believe such a drivel?
Harry
22 Nov 2012 #27
the lie is, that ONLY Poles did it

Even the IPN say that all of the perpetrators of the crime were Poles. That people like you think you can get away with lying about this massacre and claiming that the Germans are to blame shows that many more films about what happened at Jedwabne are needed.
sofijufka 2 | 191
22 Nov 2012 #28
Harry, I was born in 1951, but my parent, parents' and grandparents' friends knew what was occuppation like... Some of them where living in cities, some - in villages [my father's family]. My aunt and her husband were Warsaw's insurgent's- don't you think, that I know a little more than You about this times?

Most of my mother's friends were Jews - most of them were killed by Germans [not Nazis], others were stalinists... Her childhood friend - Hela- a gifted singer - died in ghetto, because her family demand, that she stay with them in ghetto, even if her boy-friend [Polish] offered her a shelter...

My mothers' other best friend - Zofia [a pre-war comminist] - was send at Siberia, where her child died of malnutrition. But she was a communist till her death.

One of my mother's friend was go insane- of guilt, ecause he saved a jewish guy, who after the war was a stalinst's henchman, a real monster...

Harry - You don't know polish history enough..
Harry
22 Nov 2012 #29
don't you think, that I know a little more than You about this times?

Given the lies that you think you can get away with peddling, no.

. Her childhood friend - Hela- a gifted singer - died in ghetto, because her family demand, that she stay with them in ghetto,

Oh, those evil Jews! Of course, no gentile Poles mistakenly thought that the best thing to do was to keep their families together and no Poles ever said they would shelter Jews only to later betray them or otherwise abuse them. Right?

My mothers' other best friend - Zofia [a pre-war comminist] - was send at Siberia, where her child died of malnutrition. But she was a communist till her death.

Oh, that evil Jew! Of course, no gentile Poles were life-long communists. In fact, no gentile Poles were even communists. Right?

a jewish guy, who after the war was a stalinst's henchman, a real monster...

Oh, that evil Jew! Of course, no gentile Poles were Stalinist henchmen. In fact, no gentile Poles ever did anything wrong at all. Right?

Harry - You don't know polish history enough.

I know more than enough about Polish history to spot your lies and to point them out to everybody. The problem you have is that while the lies of your ilk have been accepted for decades, now the truth finally has its boots on and is giving the tired lies of the Nazis and the Commies you love so much a damned good kicking. Keep on telling those lies, you only make yourself look more and more stupid.
sofijufka 2 | 191
22 Nov 2012 #30
Harry - so I'm a lier, and You are besserwisser? And I don't like commies at all...


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