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Piłsudski tomb desecrated in Wilno



polonius 57 | 421    
25 Nov 2012  #1

TVN24 on Sunday reported that the Piłsudski tomb in a Wilno cemetery had been desecrated with anti-Polish slogans. They included threats against the present-day leader of Lithuanian Poles and slogans such as “Poles will die.” The Lithuanian authorities are investigating. The tomb in Rossa Cemetery contains the remains of Piłsudski’s mother and the Lithuanian-born statesman’s heart. PAP later reported Polish ex-servicemen petitioning the foreign ministry to intervene and the monitoring of the Piłsudski tomb.


Ironside 44 | 8,212    
25 Nov 2012  #2

They should investigate it properly in the interest of Lithuanian state.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,663    
26 Nov 2012  #3

They included threats against the present-day leader of Lithuanian Poles

Given his behaviour, I'm not surprised that radical Lithuanians acted like that. If the leader of the German Minority party started behaving like that, Poles would be after his blood too!
Ironside 44 | 8,212    
26 Nov 2012  #4

It surprises me to no end how you supposed defender of weak, tied and minorities are set against Poles in Wileńszczyzna. Is that personal?

You are trying to mask it by singling out they democratically elected leader but you know that if it would be Jewish minority you first would be screaming anti-Semites, are being anti-Polish delph or just usual bigoted self?
Harry 79 | 13,327    
26 Nov 2012  #5

You are trying to mask it by singling out they democratically elected leader but you know that if it would be Jewish minority you first would be screaming anti-Semites, are being anti-Polish delph or just usual bigoted self?

I can't speak for Delph, but if any Jewish leader in Poland was behaving like the Polish leaders in Lithuania, I'd be happy to hold the coat of any Pole who wished to discuss the matter in physical detail with said Jewish leader in Poland.

Oh, and could you perhaps post without the insults? Cheers muchly.
Zibi - | 336    
26 Nov 2012  #6

like the Polish leaders in Lithuania

Any details on that? What did he do that some nationalist would think of killing him and other Poles?
delphiandomine 87 | 15,663    
26 Nov 2012  #7

It surprises me to no end how you supposed defender of weak, tied and minorities are set against Poles in Wileńszczyzna. Is that personal?

I can't stand Tomaszewski's rhetoric and manipulation of the minority there. The guy is not a leader, he's a troublemaker and one that went into coalition with Russians to achieve his electoral aims!

You are trying to mask it by singling out they democratically elected leader but you know that if it would be Jewish minority you first would be screaming anti-Semites, are being anti-Polish delph or just usual bigoted self?

If the Jewish minority behaved the same way as the Polish minority did, I'd criticise them too. Much of what's reported in Poland is sensationalist nonsense - they believe whatever comes out of Lithuania without even bothering to check their information. Gazeta Wyborzca is hilariously nationalist in this sense. Need I remind you about the "protest" in Vilnius where the kids didn't have a clue as to what was going on, yet they were supposedly protesting?

I can't speak for Delph, but if any Jewish leader in Poland was behaving like the Polish leaders in Lithuania, I'd be happy to hold the coat of any Pole who wished to discuss the matter in physical detail with said Jewish leader in Poland.

Likewise. The Poles are behaving themselves just fine in Ukraine - why are they causing so much trouble in Lithuania?

Incidentally, there are Poles who oppose Tomaszewski too (especially younger, educated ones who speak Lithuanian fluently) - but their voices are drowned out by the hysterical right wing rantings of their political leaders. There are certainly people who aren't too happy about his electoral alliance with Russians!
Zibi - | 336    
26 Nov 2012  #8

I can't stand Tomaszewski's rhetoric and manipulation of the minority there. The guy is not a leader, he's a troublemaker and one that went into coalition with Russians to achieve his electoral aims!

So the rhetoric and manipulation justify some Lithuanian's call for murder of Tomaszewski and other Poles? What kind of rhetoric/manipulation warrants this. What kind of rhetoric/manipulation of democratically elected Tomaszewski justifies desecration of a grave?
delphiandomine 87 | 15,663    
26 Nov 2012  #9

I'm sure some dodgy far right organisations there have called for the murder of Lithuanians, too - the sentiment about returning Vilnius "by force" isn't unknown there. And even recently in Poland, we had some guy saying that they would march upon Lwow and Wilno!

Anyway - if the former Ambassador to Lithuania is criticising the Polish groups there, there must be something in it - right?

delfi.lt/news/daily/lithuania/buves-ambasadorius-kritikuoja-lietuvos-lenku-lyderius.d?id=20424

As for the desecration of a grave - how can they complain when such events happen in Poland too?
Zibi - | 336    
26 Nov 2012  #10

I'm sure some dodgy far right organisations there have called for the murder of Lithuanians, too

So you're deflecting my questions?

And even recently in Poland, we had some guy saying that they would march upon Lwow and Wilno!

Was this guy a democratically official?

As for the desecration of a grave - how can they complain when such events happen in Poland too?

So you are ready to rightfully complain about such events in PL, but not in LT?
delphiandomine 87 | 15,663    
26 Nov 2012  #11

So you are ready to rightfully complain about such events in PL, but not in LT?

Both are equally vile. But while in Lithuania, there has been a considerable amount of provocation - no such provocation exists in Poland.

Was this guy a democratically official?

The leader of a legitimate political organisation. One that could easily get elected next time round.
Zibi - | 336    
26 Nov 2012  #12

So desecration of polish grave is, after all, okay with you Delph? And threats to polish minority as well? I am astounded. I remembered differently from your other posts.
jon357 70 | 12,569    
26 Nov 2012  #13

Desecrating a grave, any grave, is a ghastly thing to do. A shame they can't move the tomb to Wawel, especially since lesser figures have recently been interred there.

I remember being quite moved by the Slowacki quote on the tomb.
Ironside 44 | 8,212    
26 Nov 2012  #14

I can't stand Tomaszewski's rhetoric and manipulation of the minority there. The guy is not a leader, he's a troublemaker and one that went into coalition with Russians to achieve his electoral aims!

I think that he is a successful politician who is fighting for the equal treatment of Polish minority by the Lithuanian government.

If the Jewish minority behaved the same way as the Polish minority did, I'd criticise them too. Much of what's reported in Poland is sensationalist nonsense - they believe whatever comes out of Lithuania without even bothering to check their information.

I gather that you have your own trusted sources.

Incidentally, there are Poles who oppose Tomaszewski too

Incidentally there are always those who oppose this or that, it doesn't surprise me!Wouldn't that be by any chance those Poles who share your ideology?AWP got 8 MP on 141 in the Lithuania Parliament.

l

There is no monitoring. It is not first incident. You are telling me that is a norm in the EU country?
Nevertheless I would expect chauvinistic forces in Lithuania to have use common sense. why would they be so set against Poland and Poles discriminating against them?

Already Russian newspaper point out that they were occupying Poland as well n 1939. As a response to Lithuania quest to get compensation for the Soviet occupation of Lithuanian.
jon357 70 | 12,569    
26 Nov 2012  #15

There is no monitoring. It is not first incident. You are telling me that is a norm in the EU country?

It's almost unique within the EU. Poland shouldn't respond with rhetoric though, or be as acrimonious about the past as Lithuania is. A good example is the UK - when problems occur (Spanish silliness over Gib, IRA bombings etc), remain aloof, within the law and more dignified than other parties.
Palivec - | 381    
27 Nov 2012  #16

I love the self-righteousness in this thread. Such things happen in Poland all the time. How about this:

Radomierzyce

Radomierzyce1

Radomierzyce2

It's the desecrated mausoleum of the German Ziegler family in Radomierzyce, from the 18th century. Burial fault destroyed, sarcophagi opened, corpses defiled. Just one of many examples I know. No one cares.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,663    
27 Nov 2012  #17

Just one of many examples I know. No one cares.

Indeed.

Another example how the vile Tomaszewski cult has thoroughly brainwashed the Polish media.
Ironside 44 | 8,212    
27 Nov 2012  #18

It's the desecrated mausoleum of the German Ziegler family in Radomierzyce, from the 18th century. Burial fault destroyed, sarcophagi opened, corpses defiled. Just one of many examples I know. No one cares.

Was there are any anti-German slogans? If those pictures are what you say their are it is only negligence and criminal element at play not malicious action by nationalists.

I love the self-righteousness in this thread. Such things happen in Poland all the time. How about this:

Who are you? You are talking about self-righteousness with such self-righteous attitude that it sucks?
Considering that Poland was ruled by Commies and compering neighboring nations care and attitude not only towards their own historical and cultural architecture I must say that Poland done very well in that department.

Sure you can find one or other example of communist blunder but it also happened to some cites and towns that were Polish for centuries. I have seen on one of historical buildings a young tree in Berlin center.

You are such vile troll Palivec, you should watch yourself before you-will chock on your own vile bile or is that because your are stupid?

Another example how the vile Tomaszewski cult

Are you another one with a problem?Watch out watch you are typing here Tomaszwewski is not death and I would advice legal action if you spread some vile slander here!

By the way I would think that if somebody is against violence, chauvinist and all kind of bad behavior including desecrating tombs and painting slogans threatening death to ethnic groups.

Seems to me that you delph are just another kind of partisan, you talk about tolerance and democracy but your forte is hate and discrimination!
berni23 7 | 387    
27 Nov 2012  #19

Was there are any anti-German slogans? If those pictures are what you say their are it is only negligence and criminal element at play not malicious action by nationalists.

Of course, because there are no nationalists in Poland. :D

Sure you can find one or other example of communist blunder but it also happened to some cites and towns that were Polish for centuries. I have seen on one of historical buildings a young tree in Berlin center.

muahahahahaha
So you are saying Berlin was Polish for centuries?
Ironside 44 | 8,212    
27 Nov 2012  #20

Of course, because there are no nationalists in Poland. :D

What do you care berni?
berni23 7 | 387    
27 Nov 2012  #21

Lame comeback.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,663    
27 Nov 2012  #22

By the way I would think that if somebody is against violence, chauvinist and all kind of bad behavior including desecrating tombs and painting slogans threatening death to ethnic groups.

As I said, it's due to Tomaszewski's hysterical leadership - and no doubt partially because of his little coalition with the Russians. It's still not the right thing to do, but almost understandable given the constant provocation.
Ironside 44 | 8,212    
27 Nov 2012  #23

Lame comeback.

you are lame duck of a poster so it is only fitting

As I said, it's due to Tomaszewski's hysterical leadership - and no doubt partially because of his little coalition with the Russians

I see, his leadership is not good enough for your standards but it is good enough for the voters he represents. I'm not surprised that he is in coalition with The Russian, Armenians and wolverines after all Churchill was in coalition with Soviets was he not?Parliamentary Democracy right?

It's still not the right thing to do, but almost understandable given the constant provocation.

Dude, constant provocation was Lithuanian government policy towards Poles, given the fact Lithuanian is part of the EU that shouldn't be tolerated.
Zibi - | 336    
27 Nov 2012  #24

Such things happen in Poland all the time.

Such things? And if they do happen - how does that nullify the ugliness of what was done in Wilno/Vilnius? You and Delph have surprisingly soviet-like approach to this matter: deflecting the questions all the time. How difficult is it for you two to condemn what was done there, and why?

Another example how the vile Tomaszewski cult has thoroughly brainwashed the Polish media.

You must be insane Delph if you say that. No one in PL really knows who Tomaszewski is.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,663    
27 Nov 2012  #25

You must be insane Delph if you say that. No one in PL really knows who Tomaszewski is.

But he - undeniably - has been very good at convincing even the liberal Polish newspapers that the Polish minority is under constant attack in Lithuania. As I said - it wasn't widely reported that he went into coalition with the Russians, only that they had entered parliament.
berni23 7 | 387    
27 Nov 2012  #26

you are lame duck of a poster so it is only fitting

LOL It was you who suggested Poland shouldve sided with the Nazis during WW2. Then you said Berlin was Polish for centuries.
That just shows that you lack basic geography and history skills.
Beside that your gtranslated posts often give the wrong impression or are simply not understandable.
I mean how lame is that? And thats just what i noticed in 24h. :D
So do yourself a favor and go back to school.
Ironside 44 | 8,212    
27 Nov 2012  #27

Anyway it is Piłsudzki's mother tomb and His heart!

the Polish minority is under constant attack in Lithuania.

Because that is the truth!
Zibi - | 336    
27 Nov 2012  #28

[quote=delphiandomine]But he - undeniably - has been very good at convincing even the liberal Polish newspapers that the Polish minority is under constant attack in

Lithuania. As I said - it wasn't widely reported that he went into coalition with the Russians, only that they had entered parliament.[/quote

Their coalition with Russians, or how polish media interpret what's going on in LT, is irrelevant, unless you think that desecrating graveyards and threatening LT Poles is a justified pay back for Mr. Tomaszewski's actions.....
delphiandomine 87 | 15,663    
27 Nov 2012  #29

Their coalition with Russians, or how polish media interpret what's going on in LT, is irrelevant, unless you think that desecrating graveyards and threatening LT Poles is a justified pay back for Mr. Tomaszewski's actions.....

I don't know - I imagine a significant portion of Polish society would be absolutely appalled at the thought of any sort of parliamentary collaboration with Russians.

As for the graveyard desecration and the threats - it is, sadly, a response to Tomaszewski's actions. It's the same way that there was a reaction in Poland after the actions of the LT Government in the past.

Both sides really need to grow the **** up.
Ironside 44 | 8,212    
27 Nov 2012  #30

Both sides really need to grow the **** up.

BS!

sadly, a response to Tomaszewski's actions

Double BS!
Tomaszewski is defending the rights of Poles, some do not like it! You do not know Lithuanians delph and you should grow up! If you have any valid reason to post what you are posting state it, if not it is just a BS!




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