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When money dies,blame the Poles.


poland_
26 Aug 2010 #1
Adam Fergusson's 1975 book on hyper-inflation in the Weimar, When Money Dies, has become a cult read among Europe's top financiers after Warren Buffet is said to have recommended it. The author tells that in inflationary times people tend to blame immigrant and foreign workers rather than their own Government. Watch the video in the link provided.

telegraph.co.uk/finance/financevideo/7964041/Adam-Fergusso-When-immigrants-are-blamed-for-inflation.html
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
26 Aug 2010 #2
Maybe he envisaged cheap labour..not really hard to do..
OP poland_
26 Aug 2010 #3
I think it is quite interesting, how the author compare the treatment of Poles in France and England today, with that of Jews in pre war Germany. It is the first time I have heard this comparison.
Crow 137 | 7,978
26 Aug 2010 #4
When money dies,blame the Poles.

Poles shall then turn to only available alternative, to their Slavic civilization

and that would be good
Chicago Pollock 7 | 504
26 Aug 2010 #5
Slave labor or cheap labor is a zero sum game. It cannibalizes the market by driving down labor costs which eventually destroys consumer spending.

Tell the Poles to come to America they assimilate much better than the Mexicans and are more likely to demand higher wages.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
26 Aug 2010 #6
compare the treatment of Poles in France and England today, with that of Jews in pre war Germany.

And now imagine that the banks of today were run by immigrants like back then, double trouble.

Maybe he envisaged cheap labour..not really hard to do..

I can't imagine any time throughout history that foreign workers did not mean cheap labour.
I believe the point this gentleman is making is the foreign workers did not create the problem but the government's policy.
Personally I don't know why the banks aren't being hung drawn and quarter instead of being bailed out.

Tell the Poles to come to America they assimilate much better than the Mexicans and are more likely to demand higher wages.

Again it has nothing to do with 'Telling the Poles' anything, it is up to your government's policies who gets in to you country.

The U.S.A. has become less attractive to Polish people recently because it is easier and cheaper to go and work legally in Europe.

There used to be a cue down the road outside the American consulate, here in Krakow, of people trying to get visas for the States.

They had to pay hundreds of non-refundable Zloty to just get the interview and most were denied, all of which is your government's policy.

So tell your government to make it attractive for Poles to go to the States, if that's what you want.
southern 75 | 7,096
26 Aug 2010 #7
Immigrant workers play a role in the crisis.The more immigrants you have the harder you are hit.Take Greece,Ireland for example overflowed with immigrants.But our societies need the immigrants to sustain the social state and give businessmen the premium they need.
A J 4 | 1,088
26 Aug 2010 #8
I think it is quite interesting, how the author compare the treatment of Poles in France and England today, with that of Jews in pre war Germany.

You shouldn't give yourself too much credit though, because I'm pretty sure a lot of people blame foreigners of other nationalities aswell. I blame our governments, especially the one we have in Brussels. Too much greed there.

:)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
26 Aug 2010 #9
Is it really that hard to understand that the Poles who went to work legally in other countries are there because that was the government's policy of that country?

When times were good, there were 45,000 job vacant in Ireland per annum.
Face it Southern, the overwhelming majority of the Greek and Irish financial crisis rests squarely with the Greeks and the Irish.
Ireland went completely mad, there was such over valuation on the housing market that a house you could have bought for 40,000 Euro before was, ten years later, worth one million Euro. It was more expensive in Dublin (population app 1 million) than London (population app 14 million). Banks were giving loans to people left right and centre.

Ireland is € 86,692,075,835 in debt and it's growing Dept clock and there are only 4 million people in the country.

As for Greece, at least Ireland had a fantastic time and built infrastructure and modernised before it went mad and inevitably in to a recession.

Sure Ireland was the E.U's 'golden boy' but Greece?
You even lied about what was happening in your own country, how's that the immigrants fault?

I know you are just going to blame someone else for your own short comings and therefore you will never improve because you will never look at the actual problem and learn from it, so you are destined to repeat it.

I blame our government

Banks no?
milky 13 | 1,657
26 Aug 2010 #10
Poles shall then turn to only available alternative, to their Slavic civilization

and that would be good

You must mean the USSR
A J 4 | 1,088
26 Aug 2010 #11
Banks no?

Of course, but who decided to ''liberate'' the market? Privatization? Who decided to let them have a financial joy-ride? Who didn't act when it was necessary? (Hey, maybe your government is doing better, but somehow I doubt it!) I'm sorry, but governments have responsibilities, especially where it concerns tax money and pension - aswell as public fundings. Not even mentioning salaries should be looked at, especially in the public and healthcare sector.

:)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
26 Aug 2010 #12
Who decided to let them have a financial joy-ride? Who didn't act when it was necessary?

Yes, I agree.

Hey, maybe your government is doing better, but somehow I doubt it!

The Irish government were incompetent during the good years and are disastrous now.

I'm sorry, but governments have responsibilities, especially where it concerns tax money and pension - aswell as public fundings. Not even mentioning salaries should be looked at, especially in the public and healthcare sector.

Absolutely agreed.
plk123 8 | 4,150
26 Aug 2010 #13
Banks no?

lack of regulation, no?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
26 Aug 2010 #14
You were just ten minutes too late replying.
See my post above, bad dog! ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Aug 2010 #15
It was globalist gits like Buffet that likely pulled the strings and opened the floodgates. Nobody can blame the entitled in this way, especially those that entitled them! Try getting your head around that, Buffet.
Crow 137 | 7,978
26 Aug 2010 #16
You must mean the USSR

you are wrong. Serbs never obeyed to USSR

i point on Slavic world. If possible Slavic alliance, federal union or confederation, if not then, at least simple free Slavic world, Slavic civilization. Meaning, ambient (by bilateral agreements) in which Slavic and Slavic-friendly countries mutually coexist in understandings and coordination and where live Slavic spiritual, cultural and linguistic values.
OP poland_
26 Aug 2010 #17
As for Greece, at least Ireland had a fantastic time and built infrastructure and modernised before it went mad and inevitably in to a recession.
Sure Ireland was the E.U's 'golden boy' but Greece?

What is also quite interesting about Greece and Ireland, is that Ireland was the first to play ball with the austerity measure's, in that the irish admitted they are at fault and went about business to bring the debt down, no riot in the streets and no threats and demands by the Irish gov to other european govs/country. The Greeks on the other hand started rioting in the street, attacking financial institutions, blaming everyone else. What comes out of the other end. The Irish are paying higher interest rates on their debt than the Greeks. Go figure...

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100007444/it-pays-to-riot-in-europe/

You shouldn't give yourself too much credit though, because I'm pretty sure a lot of people blame foreigners of other nationalities aswell.

I am not the first to mention here, but we are in the times of lower birth figures, which country would not want to fill a void with, well educated white European future tax payers. It has been the practice of other countries in the past to boost growth. So business as usual. The loss is always for the country, which the migrants originate, in this case Poland, who covered the cost of education and training.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Aug 2010 #18
Point me to the law which says that Poles cannot send money home on their earnings from the UK. Ask Western Union for their opinion on the matter. Also, can anyone point me to the provision in America which says they have to pay income tax? People assume way too much without questioning.
OP poland_
26 Aug 2010 #19
You will have to expand on this one Seanus do not quite follow the angle.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,866
26 Aug 2010 #20
Point me to the law which says that Poles cannot send money home on their earnings from the UK.

As I recall, there are some funny tax laws about just when your liability stops for Polish income tax - and there are definitely rules on who you can gift money to (and how much) without being taxed on it.

Also, can anyone point me to the provision in America which says they have to pay income tax?

American citizens *have* to pay tax on their entire income, regardless of where in the world it was earnt. It's lunacy and entirely fitting for America ;)
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
26 Aug 2010 #21
compare the treatment of Poles in France and England today, with that of Jews in pre war Germany

Are you having a laugh? You can't compare them in any way.

Point me to the law which says that Poles cannot send money home on their earnings from the UK.

If there was, there'd be a lot less home owning Poles in Poland ;0)

and there are definitely rules on who you can gift money to (and how much) without being taxed on it.

This applies to all in the UK, gifting through a charity you can avoid paying tax, but you can gift ANYONE, their is a limit each year which is none taxible, this limit changes each year, currently it's about £3,000, but to be honest, unless you are giving £100s of £1,000s and have to account for every penny then the tax man wont know...
OP poland_
26 Aug 2010 #22
Are you having a laugh? You can't compare them in any way.

Well according to Adam Fergusson's 1975 book on hyper-inflation in the Weimar, When Money Dies, you can.AF is getting a lot of airtime and his book is being read by important decision makers. So Amathyst, why do believe that , You can't compare them in any way. I would be very interested to hear another angle.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Aug 2010 #23
Warszawski, what don't you follow?

Delph, that's true. I'd likely know how such a system works as I dealt with it in my Hons year but in the context of Scots Law. However, figures and rules change but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was merely trying to say that there are no sticky barriers to them sending money home unless some organisation imposes a block through alerting Western Union or other bodies which allow for the sending of money home. Oh, you still didn't mention the provision which says Americans have to pay. Which statute or authoritative legal source stipulates that they are duty bound to pay?

Amathyst has the idea :) The same works as between Zakopane residents and those in Chicago. Without the support of each other through money transfers, MANY would have fallen flat on their faces.

When you pay off what you need to, the disposable income is, well, at your disposition. That's the point! You don't want Poles in the UK, don't give them contracts. If they are indeed the best candidate for any given job, give it to them :)
OP poland_
26 Aug 2010 #24
As I recall, there are some funny tax laws about just when your liability stops for Polish income tax - and there are definitely rules on who you can gift money to (and how much) without being taxed on it.

I was advised by the tax advisor that when gifting money even to your spouse, you ( giver) should go to the tax office and fill out the related docs and have it on file that it is a gift, otherwise it could be taxed as income sometime in the future.

American citizens *have* to pay tax on their entire income, regardless of where in the world it was earnt. It's lunacy and entirely fitting for America ;)

Seanus, may be putting forward that there is no official legislation that Americans have to pay tax on income, it just came into being. I have seem some of the articles on the internet related to this. But I am not American or a tax payer in the USA, so I leave this debate to the sons of the founding fathers.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
26 Aug 2010 #25
Well according to Adam Fergusson's 1975

Then it must be right!! We're daubing slogans on Polish shops and stopping them entering public places...I just havent happen to noticed this !!! Doh!!

So Amathyst, why do believe that , You can't compare them in any way. I would be very interested to hear another angle.

Because a lot Poles enjoy a high quality of life and enjoy the same level of respect as I do..The rest that dont, dont because they fail to fit it or speak the language here and live a miserable existence which is not Britains fault, its theirs..
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Aug 2010 #26
Right, war, that's what I was getting at. Aaron Russo did a whole film on it, check it up on Google Video. The Poles are small fry when it comes to macroeconomics but that will change progressively if successive governments play their cards right.
OP poland_
26 Aug 2010 #27
Because a lot Poles enjoy a high quality of life and enjoy the same level of respect as I do..The rest that dont, dont because they fail to fit it or speak the language here and live a miserable existence which is not Britains fault, its theirs..

Fair point,firstly I have not read the book by AF, so I don't know the content in full, I have only read a couple of articles related to his book and seen some of his interviews, so I do not want to claim to be an authority on his book. Although my interpretation of the comparison that he is drawing is plain and simple, and that is tolerance.He is pointing out that the Jews in pre war germany came in as migrants,worked hard and did what they had too in order to survive, over the years they established communities and climbed the social scale through educating their children. In the 1930's the economy in Germany was faltering and there was hyper inflation, the Weimar gov looked for a scapegoat and they focused the problem on the Jews and the rest is history.

So AF, is not talking about the later stages 1938 onwards, he is focusing the problem of unemployment and hyper inflation laying the responsibility, at the feet of Wiemar gov.

So if we fast forward to 2008 and the fallout from the financial crisis, unemployment rising in France and the UK, austerity measures being put in place and the talk of 100, to 300,000 civil servants losing their jobs, the natural reaction of the uneducated is, lets get rid of all the immigrants, it all their fault. The last wave of immigrants in western Europe was the Central and Eastern Europeans, so the blame is focused on this group just like the Jews in the 1930's.

I believe a comparison can be drawn.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
26 Aug 2010 #28
unemployment rising in France and the UK, austerity measures being put in place and the talk of 100, to 300,000 civil servants losing their jobs, the natural reaction of the uneducated is lets get rid of all the immigrants, it all their fault.

Hmmm..The majority of people that voted for the Cons were middle class, who are not as you so politely put it "uneducated" rather the opposite..There is a misconception that its only the working classes or the lazy never done a days work in their life that have issues with immigration, there mere fact that the Cons got it speaks volumes for how the upper classes feel, since the main topic and their main points were about reducing immigration.

In the 1930's the economy in Germany was faltering and there was hyper inflation, the Weimar gov looked for a scapegoat and they focused the problem on the Jews and the rest is history.

Thats Germany, we on this island have had immigration from europe for centuries and as long as people mix and dont ghettoise themselves, there hasnt really been a problem.

So if we fast forward to 2008 and the fallout from the financial crisis, unemployment rising in France and the UK, austerity measures being put in place and the talk of 100, to 300,000 civil servants losing their jobs

Not only civil servants, businesses have been going to wall like there's no tomorrow and 1,000s have already lost their jobs, not to mention companies relocating to other countries.

I still dont agree that Poles will be singled out and shuned like the Jews were in Germany, they're members of the EU and there isnt a thing that Britain can do to get rid of them..Rather the government has targeted non EU citizens..You only have to look at the way they have raised the points on the Tier 2 switch to Tier 1..Its almost impossible for the VAST MAJORITY..meaning hardly any of them qualify and will have to leave the UK.
OP poland_
26 Aug 2010 #29
There is a misconception that its only the working classes or the lazy never done a days work in their life that have issues with immigration, there mere fact that the Cons got it speaks volumes for how the upper classes feel, since the main topic and their main points were about reducing immigration.

Well the UK is not the largest country by land mass, so how many more people can it take before there is a reaction.

Thats Germany, we on this island have had immigration from europe for centuries and as long as people mix and dont ghettoise themselves, there hasnt really been a problem.

History has away of repeating itself,not always to the same extreme.

Not only civil servants, businesses have been going to wall like there's no tomorrow and 1,000s have already lost their jobs, not to mention companies relocating to other countries.

In a recent article I read,it mentioned that many blue chip companies are considering relocating due to the changing tax policy regulation in the UK. Maybe a solution for the future would be to give a company a nationality and passport, that stays with it for life just like a individual. On a more serious note, the reason is normally because of high earners,who would prefer to relocate than pay increased taxes.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Aug 2010 #30
The Poles should not be made scapegoats. As Bill Hicks said, "you gotta use your options, folks". The Poles are doing that and hats off to them. We should have a nose breaking job aimed at idiots in this world. I'd never be out of work.


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