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Kaczynski to be buried at Wawel ?!


bolek 6 | 330
16 Apr 2010 #241
i just disagree with the burial decision.. that is all..

I respect that, but the decision was obviously well thought out and not done in the spur of the moment, let me say that in time future generations will view this mans contribution in a very positive way, he was a true Pole. Lets be honest plk123 very few people like politicians, especially in Poland. Its time Poles learned to work with each other and bury there differences. I was amazed at comments made by the US vice president on the legacy of the President, he was indeed a great man, its a shame poles don't share the same sentiments.
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544
16 Apr 2010 #242
I guess the question is, was that a mistake?

Certainly, to die as a result of overdoing gherkins is nothing to be proud of. ;)

More seriously though, I found this decision to bury Lech at Wawel to match Jarosław's overblown ego, but the die was cast and there is nothing we can do about it. Plus, there are a lot of people that were allowed to be buried there purely because they were head of Rzeczpospolita, just like Lech Kaczyński was.
kondzior 12 | 1,128
16 Apr 2010 #243
KACZKA DO NOT DESERVE IT!!!!! IT IS THE DISGRACE!!!!!

LETS DONT LET IT HAPPEN, PEOPLE!!!!!!
LETS STAND IN FRONT OF THE WAWEL WITH SIGNS SAYING: "S P I E P R Z A J D Z I A D U ! ! !"

(I'm stoned)
z_darius 14 | 3,968
16 Apr 2010 #244
LETS STAND IN FRONT OF THE WAWEL WITH SIGNS SAYING: "S P I E P R Z A J D Z I A D U ! ! !"

I think it's a little extreme and misdirected.
Why would you address a dead man who had no say in where he would be buried?
After all it wasn't Lech's decision, was it?

(I'm stoned)

don't take dope before posting then. Or did you mean "petrified" or "stunned"?

I generally agree that Wawel is not appropriate for Kaczynski's final resting place but, on the second thought, maybe (just maybe) he was the last truly Polish president, to be followed by a gang of foreign interests' delivery boys.
jonni 16 | 2,485
16 Apr 2010 #245
KACZKA DO NOT DESERVE IT!!!!! IT IS THE DISGRACE!!!!!

LETS DONT LET IT HAPPEN, PEOPLE!!!!!!
LETS STAND IN FRONT OF THE WAWEL WITH SIGNS SAYING: "S P I E P R Z A J D Z I A D U ! ! !"

They've already had protests apparently. Now if Jaroslaw stands...
Mr Grunwald 27 | 1,820
16 Apr 2010 #246
(I'm stoned)

Good you added that comment
Torq 32 | 2,916
16 Apr 2010 #247
(I'm stoned)

Good you added that comment


LOL
Seanus 15 | 19,706
16 Apr 2010 #248
The key thing is, he is, to my knowledge, to be buried in the non-public part which is maintained by the Catholic church. Is my student right on this point? Also, JK and LK's daughter are entitled to request it, there's nothing stopping them from asking.
Crow 139 | 8,408
16 Apr 2010 #249
yes, its confirmed in Serbia, too. It would be in Wawel said some Cardinal Stanjislav for Serbian newspapers.

Serbian president Tadic would be present at Kaczynski`s funeral.

KACZKA DO NOT DESERVE IT!!!!!

Kacz deserve it! i mean, it would be batter if he is alive but, when things already went in this direction, Vavel would be appropriate. Polish Kings regularly supported Serbians, as well as president Kacinski.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
16 Apr 2010 #250
It is really pathetic how all concerned parties - Cardinal Dziwisz, that perfidious JK, PIS, the family - all point the finger at each other. "No it was not my idea, the other guy decided it"

For me it is very acceptable that the evil genius JK in a true Machiavellian way orchestrated this. A perfect start for the new election campaign.

The arrogance - to compare themselves with Piłsudski.

Good that that volcano put a stick in their propaganda campaign. Most likely PO together with Putin managed that eruption :)
Arg_ 1 | 27
16 Apr 2010 #251
not a good choise
pgtx 30 | 3,158
18 Apr 2010 #252
what did you think about the funeral itself? i think everything was well organized and looked good...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Apr 2010 #253
It was well conducted for sure. LK getting into Wawel was a bit like Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize. It was a reward for the future and not the past or present.

Merit can be cast to the side here. His death is very symbolic to Poles and should be seen in that light. Lord knows that life is not a meritocracy anyway.
Vincent 9 | 819 Moderator
18 Apr 2010 #254
what did you think about the funeral itself? i think everything was well organized and looked good..

Yes it was a grand state funeral and I thought Marta Kaczynska showed great courage and dignity throughout, even though there must have been a lot of pain inside her.
lesser 4 | 1,311
18 Apr 2010 #255
Well, I would like to write few words about this.

First of all, you people need to realize that this is none of your business. This is the case between the host (the church represented by Cardinal Dziwisz) and family.

I'm just sorry that people (like Lech and Maria) who publicly denied parts of Catholic teachings are rewarded by such a nobility. (burial at Catholic cathedral) Of course they were not the worst Catholics around but still some representative cemetery would be more appropriate.

However people who demonstrated publicly, questioning decision of bishop are disgrace for themselves. Their megalomania is laughable and arrogance pretty shocking.

Of course this is pretty funny to see especially all of those atheists, leftists, heretics or Jews whom know better who deserve to be buried at Catholic Cathedral! Outstanding :)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Apr 2010 #256
Isn't religion just about labels anyway, lesser? Was he a practising Christian? Why not just say he got there through his stature as President?
pgtx 30 | 3,158
18 Apr 2010 #257
I thought Marta Kaczynska showed great courage and dignity throughout, even though there must have been a lot of pain inside her.

i thought the same...
lesser 4 | 1,311
18 Apr 2010 #258
Isn't religion just about labels anyway, lesser?

Certainly not our religion.

Was he a practising Christian? Why not just say he got there through his stature as President?

Such nobility should be reserved to people who stick to Catholic doctrine completely. They might be sinners like all of us but they should not publicly deny any part of Catholic teaching.

Whether the fact that he was a president is important? Yes, otherwise he could hardly be considered to be a pretender to burial at Wawel.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Apr 2010 #259
Aha, and what is your religion about in the sense of values? Thanks, Lesser, your responses are valued.

What does sticking to Catholic doctrine completely entail? Is being a devout Catholic always sensible and why?

So Catholic teaching is infallible in your opinion? What are the main selling points of the Catechisms according to you?

Wasn't LK on a slippery slope in terms of having to strike a balance between public duty and promoting Catholic values? Where did he go wrong?

Again, I appreciate your input.
Bzibzioh
18 Apr 2010 #260
The key thing is, he is, to my knowledge, to be buried in the non-public part which is maintained by the Catholic church. Is my student right on this point?

He is buried in Wawel's Cathedral which belongs entirely to the Catholic Church. Wawel Castle belongs to the Polish state. If that's what you mean by public and non-public part. Both of them are open to the public.

I generally agree that Wawel is not appropriate for Kaczynski's final resting place but, on the second thought, maybe (just maybe) he was the last truly Polish president, to be followed by a gang of foreign interests' delivery boys.

My sentiment exactly.

Of course this is pretty funny to see especially all of those atheists, leftists, heretics or Jews whom know better who deserve to be buried at Catholic Cathedral! Outstanding :)

The same way like they are all discussing who deserves to be called saint and who isn't :)

Such nobility should be reserved to people who stick to Catholic doctrine completely.

And it is.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Apr 2010 #261
That's right, Bzibzioh. Thanks for the clarification and confirmation!

Lesser has a point, death is perhaps the most sensitive issue out there and who are we to deny JK and Marta (more JK in this case) his reasonable wish? Piłsudski had his shortcomings too, as did those kings. It's a matter of heart and not head and we must always remind ourselves that this is Poland :)
Bzibzioh
18 Apr 2010 #262
It's a matter of heart and not head and we must always remind ourselves that this is Poland :)

and Poles love passionate political discussions so rest assured that this topic will be discussed ad nauseam :)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Apr 2010 #263
Well, 42,000 people joined the FB dissent campaign and most of them are Poles. They must ask themselves, 'what more could LK have done'? It's all so easy to point the finger but what would they have done better if they were in his shoes?
lesser 4 | 1,311
18 Apr 2010 #264
Aha, and what is your religion about in the sense of values? Thanks, Lesser, your responses are valued.

Decalogue would be a good start to learn about Catholicism. Certainly more reading is needed to fully learn about mentioned issue.

What does sticking to Catholic doctrine completely entail? Is being a devout Catholic always sensible and why?

It means that if you commit sins, you must feel sorry. You cannot be opposed to any part of Catholic teaching.

So Catholic teaching is infallible in your opinion?

Doctrine is infallible. If one claims otherwise, must consider Catholicism to be a false religion. I think that this is pretty obvious.

What are the main selling points of the Catechisms according to you?

I'm not familiar with exact meaning of "selling points".

Wasn't LK on a slippery slope in terms of having to strike a balance between public duty and promoting Catholic values? Where did he go wrong?

I cannot read in his mind, I can just comment about his public stances. A good Catholic cannot believe something that he publicly deny. He was missing church's teaching as far a abortion is concentrated. His ecumenical activity was very controversial and could mislead some people. (At this point many Catholic priests aren't any better to be fair) While his wife had different opinion about in vitro.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Apr 2010 #265
Decalogue? Sorry, I'm not familiar with that term.

Repentance/penance isn't solely confined to Catholicism.

So doctrine leaves no room for judgment?

What can we glean from the Catechisms?

It's natural, men and women often do. Also, why go for a pre-decided answer? Life is complicated and we need to go beyond merely prescriptive positions.
Bzibzioh
18 Apr 2010 #266
What are the main selling points of the Catechisms according to you?

There is a one selling point of Christianity for me: notion of forgiveness and mercy. Other religions are telling you to hate peoples of different faith or remember forever all the deeds committed against you.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Apr 2010 #267
Then why are so many Poles begrudging and not willing to forgive and forget?

The Koran doesn't teach that in certain parts. It is just misunderstood by those who act in the name of Islam.

Anyway, I'm not going to deflect too much. Some people need to get over the fact that LK is buried in Wawel. I'm just disappointed that more attention hasn't been given to the others that died who made their own contribution. They all had functions to perform and likely performed them admirably.
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Apr 2010 #268
Other religions are telling you to hate peoples of different faith or remember forever all the deeds committed against you.

Deuteronomy 7:3-4

You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

Forgiveness and mercy work sometimes, other times there are explicit instructions to kill people for mistakes.

They all had functions to perform and likely performed them admirably.

The representatives of the military on that flight have done quite a bit to make the Polish military the capable force it is today.
Pepeczki - | 32
18 Apr 2010 #269
Deuteronomy 7:3-4

I think 99% of christians worldwide haven't read that stuff and even if they did, they would be smart enough to realize it's more than 3000 years old so it has no value whatsoever.

Only muslims are stupid enough to enforce laws and practices invented 1400 years ago.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Apr 2010 #270
Aha, so what do you think of the revisions carried out by the Council of Trent, Peppy?

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