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10,000 ISRAELIS READY TO CLAIM FOR POLISH CITIZENSHIP AND POLISH LAND!


Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2007 #211
Back to the question, how would Mr Tusk handle this situation? The debate has been raging for many years as to Israel's entitlement to occupy their territory, and force has been used to defend it. One wonders how Poland would contest the right of Jews to live in Poland based on bloodlines/genealogy
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 Dec 2007 #212
No there are 3 main groups: Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Oriental.

I heard about this division, however I don't know whether they all origin from one ancient ethnic group (or more) and were divided in this way already when they spread all over the world.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2007 #213
Eh, the question?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
26 Dec 2007 #214
they all origin from one ancient ethnic group

I'm not sure but If you look at them It looks like genetically they should be completely different.

One wonders how Poland would contest the right of Jews to live in Poland based on bloodlines/genealogy

What do you mean ? They can live here without any problems.
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 Dec 2007 #215
One wonders how Poland would contest the right of Jews to live in Poland based on bloodlines/genealogy

If they would proof that their parents or grandparent were citizens of Poland then I think they would got the citizenship.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
26 Dec 2007 #216
It's not so easy. I heard that only about 1/3 of Israelits trying to get Polish citizenship actually got It.
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 Dec 2007 #217
I'm not sure but If you look at them It looks like genetically they should be completely different.

They lived in different climate conditions through the centuries among different cultures. Perhaps this could explain this at least partially.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2007 #218
OK, Jews can live here as of right but if 10,000 claimed land that was contentious then the Polish govt would surely have sth 2 say about it. In the interests of due process, I guess that Polish courts would have no choice but to hear out their claims. It shouldn't be unduly problematic as Poland has a land mass probably 3 times that of Britain's who have accommodated 800,000 Poles so 10,000 shouldn't rattle too many cages
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
26 Dec 2007 #219
I guess that Polish courts would have no choice but to hear out their claims.

That's happening all the time no matter what ethnic group the person represent.
Puzzler 9 | 1,089
26 Dec 2007 #220
Well, somebody asking questions like "Why are you Poles so anti-Semitic" doesn't sounds too friendly

- Of course not. And it should always be countered with another question, a very pertinent one: 'Why are many of you Jews so virulently Polonophobic?'

And why on earth some of you gang up with German Polonophobes to attack the Poles?

The Jewish Polonophobia is a fact.

Yes indeed, we Polish people have quite a few enemies, but I firmly believe great changes are coming in the world which will result in a complete downfall of our foes and our becoming truly free and safe after over 200 years of oppression. Our bad destiny is coming to en end; our foes' bad destiny is about to affect them very painfully. I would be a liar if I said this upcoming fulfillment of the book is not joyfully anticipated by me. I've seen enough of mistreatment of my people by all sorts of thugs. We're emerging from this clean and morally victorious; they are going hopelessly down. I'll live long enough to see the great finale.

:)
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 Dec 2007 #221
I guess that Polish courts would have no choice but to hear out their claims.

Polish courts should honestly analyze evidence that they provide.

It shouldn't be unduly problematic as Poland has a land mass probably 3 times that of Britain's who have accommodated 800,000 Poles so 10,000 shouldn't rattle too many cages

All of those people for sure don't want to settle here. Probably this is mostly about money. Even most of those who want Polish passport, in fact need it only to go westwards.
Puzzler 9 | 1,089
26 Dec 2007 #222
All of those people for sure don't want to settle here

- And how do you know this? - Personally, I don't mind folks from Israel, or from anywhere else, settling in Poland, as long as they remain loyal to Poland.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2007 #223
Which shows that Jews aren't treated as one like Americans are. Americans, through embassies and consulates, protect their citizens to an amazing extent abroad and passport issues rarely pose a problem. I was unaware that Jews had to push so hard on the passport front
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 Dec 2007 #224
- And how do you know this?

Probability theory. :)

I was unaware that Jews had to push so hard on the passport front

All nationals have the same way to obtain Polish passport (citizenship).
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2007 #225
Can't refute that too easily Puzzler
Puzzler 9 | 1,089
26 Dec 2007 #226
- Can't refute what?

Probability theory. :)

- Would you kindly elaborate on this?
:)
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 Dec 2007 #227
- Would you kindly elaborate on this?

Most of them simply consider western countries more attractive. Like most of those Chechens coming here.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2007 #228
Yeah, Chechens have also been flocking to Poland in their droves, not without some controversy but achieving their goal. The Schengen agreement is yet another initiative that redefines positions. The Western countries have a greater commitment to enforcing human rights agreements
Puzzler 9 | 1,089
26 Dec 2007 #229
Most of them simply consider western countries more attractive. Like most of those Chechens coming here

- But how do you know this that the Israelis moving in consider 'western countries' (whatever it means) more attractive? I hope you don't base your statement about the Israelis on a reasoning of the sort: 'Since some Chechens consider Germany more attractive to live in than Poland, then Israeli immigrants also consider Germany more attractive to live in than Poland'?

The Western countries have a greater commitment to enforcing human rights agreements

- The 'Western countries' (whatever it should mean) have allegedly 'a greater commitment to enforcing human rights' than who?

I'm kind of sick and tired of asking this question over and over again, but I've got no choice: so you don't consider Poland 'Western', Seamus? Why not?

:)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2007 #230
Poland is a central European country but if u look at my posting carefully, I never said or even implied that Poland wasn't Western. They have a greater commitment than countries who are not signatories to the ECHR. Turkey being a prime example, they were denied access for repeated violations of Article 8 in particular. Turkey, in my mind, is not classically Western, it's borderline
lesser 4 | 1,311
26 Dec 2007 #231
- But how do you know this that the Israelis moving in consider 'western countries' (whatever it means) more attractive? I hope you don't base your statement about the Israelis on a reasoning of the sort: 'Since some Chechens consider Germany more attractive to live in than Poland, then Israeli immigrants also consider Germany more attractive to live in than Poland'?

Germany is not the only country in the EU outside of Poland. I have seen enough Jews in the internet to doubt that they want to live among those evil Poles. Those who battle already many years to got some compensation probably dislike Poland even more.
Puzzler 9 | 1,089
26 Dec 2007 #232
Poland is a central European country but if u look at my posting carefully

- I got your point, brother. Sorry, if I sounded a bit harsh; it's not adversity towards you, just my style of talking. No hard feelings.

:)

Germany is not the only country in the EU outside of Poland. I have seen enough Jews in the internet to doubt that they want to live among those evil Poles. Those who battle already many years to got some compensation probably dislike Poland even more.

- Yes, that seems to make sense. Thanks, Lesser.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Dec 2007 #233
None taken bro, forums are there to share opinions, it isn't a job, just a way to pass the time and test out what ur education gave u. Training is the way forward but I'm grateful for the education I received. U didn't insult my family so there's no issue. Keep the postings coming
kaliszer - | 99
27 Dec 2007 #234
About Israelis moving to Poland: It won't happen. Despite the news you see on TV, Israel is very good counbtry to live in and few Israelis are leaving. Those who do, go to the US, as people all over the world seem to be doing. So why are some trying to get Polish poassports? Simply to be able work and travel freely in the EU.

About Jews claiming pre-WWII property: That's more of an emotional issue (wanting justice or revenge) than a desire to move to Poland. It's not even a financial issue for most, since most of the porperties were just homes in small towns with little commercial value. Most of the Jewish property of pre war Poland has no claimants since the owners and their children were killed.

About Jews being a religion or an ethnic group:
We are an ethnic group that has its own religion. We all (except converts) descend from Jacob (also called Israel). It's all in the Bible, and our history is probably the most documented story in the world. Why is there so much variation in our appearance? Because we are not racially "pure". Converts who joined us over thousands of years brought in other traits to our genetic pool. Some of us have some Polish genes and some have some Perisan genes, etc. so that creates some cosmetic differences. But we all share the genes we got from the ancient Hebrew people who you read about in the Bible. Racial purity is not considered an important thing in our culture. As long as someone's mother is a Jew, that person is a Jew by Jewish law - no matter what other ancestors the person had.

About Communist Jews: As I said above, by Jewish law they are Jews. But what they did was not done by "THE JEWS" because they did it as renegades from the Jewish community and certainly from the jewish religion. Their philosophy was that Jews should disappear and assimilate with the other "workers". Communists wanted all national differences to disappear and become the "working class". This was all ******** of course, but Jewish communists were the first to give up their jewish identity (especially marx who hated jews). So blaming "THE JEWS" for what communists did is like blaming Poland for what the communists did.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,093
27 Dec 2007 #235
I wouldn't show off the Bible if you want something to prove scientifically!
Is there more "real" stuff you can tell us?
What about the genetic comparison to the arabs in the ME?
(And how can it be that you all stem from one man...did his children made incest?) A real question here...

Don't get me wrong....it's all well when we talk about religion only (Adam and Eve etc).
But an ethnic history is something else alltogether....you shouldn't mix it!

Right now you are still a religion only in my mind....with a belief shared first with many people in a certain place in a certain time.

The same with the paganism in northern/central Europe before Christianity got imported.
Just sharing the same beliefs didn't made them a race! (And sharing christian beliefs or having a christian mother doesn't make one of a "christian race")
kaliszer - | 99
27 Dec 2007 #236
About your last question: We stem from one man and his children who married with canaanites, Ishmaelites and all kinds of other "ites". Jacobs wife was an Aramite.

As far as real stuff: Most historians accept the general historical picture that's in the Bible even if they don't accept the personal details. Religious Catholics would have to accept it if the believe that the Bible is from God. Anyway, I accept it (and I'm not even Catholic).

The Arabs in the ME are close to us genetically too. There have been studies where they look for a certain gene marker that's common to Jews and they see it in different ethnic groups in different amounts. Middle east people share it too. Arabs across the middle east are also not all the same. Some look completely white and some are black (Sudan). The Arab world is more of cultural thing than a racial thing.

Anyway, the Arabs and Jews are not of a different race from eachother. That's why it bothers me when Europeans think it has something to do with racism. It's simply a conflict between two ethnic groups, like there was between Poles and Ukrainians. Not every conflict is about race.
lesser 4 | 1,311
27 Dec 2007 #237
But what they did was not done by "THE JEWS" because they did it as renegades from the Jewish community and certainly from the jewish religion.

Come on, the Jews as a ethnic group (I don't blame Judaism) cannot so easily get away with this. Especially if many Jews loves to blame other nations for their misbehaviors, they should acknowledge crimes committed by the ethnic Jews as well. No matter how would Jews in Israel or US try to avoid this topic in Poland and some other countries people will remember. Denial don't bring them a sympathy among those people for sure.

That's why it bothers me when Europeans think it has something to do with racism.

Unfortunately many people don't understand the meaning of the words that they use. Even according to British court a Welshman who verbally offends Englishman is racist, what is absolutely ridiculous.
celinski 31 | 1,258
27 Dec 2007 #238
what is absolutely ridiculous

I think the fact that Jewish were really cleared out of Poland, they were safe to claim to be the victim's yet Roman/Greek Catholic had a population that remained. History being reported was of what happened to "Jewish" vs. what happened to "Polish" the real target. Even today I will find sites that are "Jewish" only and I wonder what they did with my family's records that were in the same location. I may not be Jewish but where are my rights. Carol
omniba
27 Dec 2007 #239
There were Jewish communists who did terrible things. But they did them despite the fact that they were born Jewish, not because they were Jewish. Jewish communists were atheists who left the Jewish religion and broke away from their communities. People who remained Jews were persecuted by the communists.

An excellent point, kaliszer, especially where you mention those "who remained Jews".

If we would call "Jewish" only those religious people then for example:
- Nazis would not kill about 6 millions of Jews (plenty of non-believers don't count )
- Number of Jews in Poland would be VERY small because few of them attend to synagogues according to statistics.
- A lot of non-believers whom consider themselves Jewish would be wrong

Lesser, you too have made an excellent point.

The trouble with these excellent points is that they seem to indicate some contradiction. A sort of “now we are/now we aren’t” Jewish.

That's more of an emotional issue (wanting justice or revenge) than a desire to move to Poland. It's not even a financial issue for most, since most of the porperties were just homes in small towns with

Whereas wanting justice seems quite logical, wanting revenge doesn’t. Revenge on whom?
Krazy Kaju 2 | 35
27 Dec 2007 #240
... so why should we give Polish citizenship to non-Poles?

Polska dla Polakow!

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