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Interesting article about mess in Polish offices.


Monitor 14 | 1,820
26 Jul 2013 #1
natemat.pl/69519,urzad-kontra-polak-ktory-wraca-z-emigracji-dowod-meldunek-prawo-jazdy-rejestracja-auta-to-koszmar

Here is google translated. I am not sure if it's readable...

The Office vs Pole, who returns from exile. Evidence of registration, driver's license, car registration nightmare

With relentless wall of bureaucracy must confront each. Our reader Krystian Cybulski returned to Polish after 22 years of living in the United States. He wanted to form an identity card - could not. He wanted to register a car - the same. Get to know the history, you might be entitled "from window to window."

The Polish returned after nearly a quarter of a century spent in the United States. After such a long exile in the country had paid a lot of basic things. - It is normal, but I would never have expected that it will it cost me so much nerve - explains Cybulski. The first one went to battle with a report.

Join and book
Although our source for more than 20 years living overseas, all the while he was registered in Poznan . He thought it would be worth checking out, because I just did not want to live in the capital of Wielkopolska. And here came the first problem. The office informed him that the check out is required Additions book Military Commission. - I had this, so I had to develop - said Cybulski. He was not going to protest. In the end these are the rules.

- So I went to Warsaw, where he has lived, to the appropriate HCR. There, I was directed to research, I had this many adventures. In total, I had to knock on the door of 12-13 different. It used to be attracted to pants and everything was clear. And I had to go from doctor to the clinic and back - says Krystian Cybulski. He noted that the entire procedure lasted a total of two, maybe three weeks. In the end, the reader got in Warsaw military book. Having it under one arm went to Poznan and calmly longer be able to check out. - Well, that HCR had no problems, just a shame I had to waste so much time - irritated.

To get evidence
More Cybulski was trying to keep up with sophisticated ID card. He explained that the office met with something absolutely bizarre. The application for an identity card was required data from the last act of marital status, ie marriage. Did not count, or passport, or birth certificate. What was needed was an act of civil status. - A wedding was taking in the United States , so I had a rustic statement. And to him at birth was registered only "Poland" without the city. And it was a huge problem - explains Cybulski. It did not help that the passport and birth certificate information could be seen as a bull, where he was born. Marriage certificate or identity card will not be.

Cybulski, therefore, have to go to Czestochowa, where his wife is registered and where he registered his marriage certificate. There was amended act in such a way as to include the place of birth. - Fortunately, there was no trouble here - he explains. When he had the marriage certificate, duly completed, there would be no way to get the coveted ID card.

The car and driver's license
This is not the end of the twists and turns. Our caller wanted to register a car. The District Office Mokotów learned that I can not register a car in Warsaw, because his wife is registered in Czestochowa, and he nowhere. - Finally, we registered our car in Czestochowa, did not want to fly again after offices - he says.

This, however, does not end situation of trying to keep the offices. Now comes the license. The Polish returned to the U.S. document on the basis of which he could only drive for 180 days. Then, according to the law must develop Polish counterpart. Interestingly, he could not do it earlier example, after 120 days. He had to wait 180 days, or six months.

- What about the period to earn the right license? I do not drive the car? So can you say that for some time I drove without a license. That's absurd - he says. In the end he needed a theory driving test in Poland and could form their document (the law does not require him to he also practical). However, it did not turned out to be so simple.

The proposal adopted
At the office of the clerk Mokotów Cybulski did not want to accept the application for a license, because it has no permanent address. It had only address. - Arguing with me, my reference was to the relevant provisions. Then I decided to check everything - reports Cybulski.

Reviewed the laws, regulations and appeared with them at the office. Showed the clerk that the provisions referred to only by place of residence, not a check. - That was funny. I show that in this section do not exist, and you refer me to another. Checking a second and there is nothing about the check - says Cybulski. After several skirmishes finally got a driver's license - did not have to report. - Was shocking to me that the officials do not know the law . It really touched me - he says.

Fine, and all in all nothing

In the absence of a check-in clerk visited him, who came to him ... instruct. - They were indeed very nice and did not want to do the problem, but made it clear that without any check I get a fine - he recalls. He adds that all institutions will eventually look at the place of residence, not a check. - Why keep alive a recipe that does nothing and is dead? - Asks rhetorically Krystian Cybulski.

smurf 39 | 1,981
26 Jul 2013 #2
Jebus, what a mess.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
26 Jul 2013 #3
As a translator, I just heaved a huge sigh of relief. Electronic translation is still nowhere near my humble efforts ;-)
OP Monitor 14 | 1,820
26 Jul 2013 #4
I think that google translate is doing much better translation from German to English than from Polish to English. I don't know if it's because of more similarities between these 2 languages or because of more money spend on research in this direction. If the 2dn then it's just matter of time when translation will look much better.
smurf 39 | 1,981
26 Jul 2013 #5
I didn't mean a mess in translation though, I meant a mess that he was fuqed around so much ;)
random2099 2 | 16
26 Jul 2013 #6
The heritage of soviet bureaucracy, I hate polish bureaucracy so much. I just want to add one thing, the bureaucracy in Poland is a mess because it is meant to be so.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
26 Jul 2013 #7
I don't know if it's because of more similarities between these 2 languages

I would bet my money that that's the case.

the bureaucracy in Poland is a mess because it is meant to be so.

I wouldn't call it a "mess". There are certain procedures in place, and as soon as he completed them, he received all his documents. Am I right? Whether or not these procedures are complicated and/or time-consuming is quite another matter. A "mess" would mean that anything goes and no procedures exist. Actually, the article made me quite happy, as 1) I am not a man, so don't have to faff around with military records, 2) I was married in Poland, and 3) my expired driving licence is Polish as well. This means that when I come back, I'll have next to no problems getting stuff sorted :-)
Harry
26 Jul 2013 #8
Whether or not these procedures are complicated and/or time-consuming is quite another matter.

The point is that those processes are simply not needed and are a waste of tax-payer money. And those processes are by no means the exception: my car registration recently expired (Poles can register their cars for an unlimited time, foreigners cannot). I own my car, I own my flat, I live entirely within Polish law and I pay lots of tax in Poland. In order to do something as simple as updating my car registration (no details at all had changed, even the same passport number), I have so far needed to visit six separate places (a total of seven times, as one place required two visits and in another office the clerk point blank refused to do what the poster on the wall in his office said he would do)
OP Monitor 14 | 1,820
26 Jul 2013 #9
The point is that those processes are simply not needed and are a waste of tax-payer money.

Exactly, but rulers in Poland don't understand that they should do as much as they can to limit number of procedures.
And bureaucrats just implement the law. And they don't have any incentive to simplify anything (not that they could, but they could demand, suggest something, as they work with that every day), because the more complicated procedures the more bureaucrats is needed. - more job for them.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
26 Jul 2013 #10
The point is that those processes are simply not needed and are a waste of tax-payer money.

That still doesn't mean they're a "mess". I'm only objecting to the term, not to the fact that you might need to jump through a hoop or two. I used to be a "foreigner" in Poland till I was over 30 (I had a karta stałego pobytu and a Czech passport) so I kinda know what that entails.
Nile 1 | 155
26 Jul 2013 #11
I wouldn't call it a "mess".

I would.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
26 Jul 2013 #12
How's that for a complicated procedure: my father is Polish, I had lived in Poland since early childhood, had a karta stałego pobytu, attended Polish schools and a Polish uni, married a Polish national and had two Polish children, and it still took over a year for me to get Polish citizenship when I finally applied for it.
smurf 39 | 1,981
26 Jul 2013 #13
The point is that those processes are simply not needed and are a waste of tax-payer money.

+1

Exactly, but rulers in Poland don't understand that they should do as much as they can to limit number of procedures.

Yet people continue to put the same idiots in power.

That still doesn't mean they're a "mess"

A complete and unmitigated mess, unlike any other country I've even had the pleasure to live in. It's a shambles, sorry to disagree with you, but it's near impossible to get anyone to do what's supposed to be their job in government bodies here. I think bringing in something like performance-related pay would shake things up.

But ridiculous things like, for example, where I live, Katowice there are something like 4 different tax offices for the different areas. I'm sorry, but Katowice is not a big city and needing 4 tax offices to run the city is beyond a joke.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
26 Jul 2013 #14
where I live, Katowice there are something like 4 different tax offices for the different areas

For me as the end user that would be great. Why should I have to travel across the city to hand in a form, for example, when I could just pop in literally next door? I see nothing wrong or ridiculous about that.
OP Monitor 14 | 1,820
26 Jul 2013 #15
I think that you don't see connection between number of offices and amount of taxes you have to pay. I think it's because big part of salary pays automatically employer. If every employed had to deduct tax himself then maybe would realize how much it all costs.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
26 Jul 2013 #16
If every employed had to deduct tax himself then maybe would realize how much it all costs.

I have only ever worked as self-employed, so you don't need to lecture me on taxes. Also, where I live now (England) it is virtually impossible to access a physically existing tax office - you can either write or call. If you write, you never know whether they will actually receive your letter and answer it. If you call, you have approx. a 50% chance that you will not get through to an "advisor", but even if you do, they usually know nothing about your case and aren't able to help you in any meaningful way. I might be wrong, but I think that keeping several smaller tax offices or a large one for a larger percentage for the population doesn't really change anything much cost-wise. What you might save on building maintenance or rent you then spend on call centres and such.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
26 Jul 2013 #17
Also, where I live now (England) it is virtually impossible to access a physically existing tax office - you can either write or call.

As you say -

Write : don't expect any sensible answer, or even an answer at al
Call : forget it, they're not going to have a clue with anything more complicated than "send me xxx form, please".

I vastly prefer the Polish way of doing things.
smurf 39 | 1,981
26 Jul 2013 #18
I see nothing wrong or ridiculous about that

Wait a second, you don't see the advantage of having one central tax off for an entire city?
Seriously?

Jesus wept.

I might be wrong, but I think that keeping several smaller tax offices or a large one for a larger percentage for the population doesn't really change anything much cost-wise.

Yea, I'd bet my last buck that you're flat out wrong here, sori ;)

In this day and age all of these things should be done online anyway, I reckon that about 60-70% of the workforce would be totally gotten rid of over a phase out period.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
26 Jul 2013 #19
In this day and age all of these things should be done online anyway,

Filing is being done online, AFAIK the system is in place in Poland now? But even if you file stuff online, actual humans have to check the paperwork, answer phone calls, investigate complicated cases, file stuff for Higher Up, etc. etc. And especially - if you have fewer offices - man the call centres. Oh, how I love call centres! Not.
smurf 39 | 1,981
26 Jul 2013 #20
AFAIK the system is in place in Poland now

Indeed it is, I'm waiting for the chance to change.... i.e, I'm too lazy...maybe I need to wait until the end of the tax year, which I think is in May?

Oh, how I love call centres! Not

+1
jon357 63 | 14,255
26 Jul 2013 #21
A "mess" would mean that anything goes and no procedures exist.

In this case, the procedures themself are the mess. An army book is pointless, needing marriage documents to get an ID card is bizarre and th edriving licence thing is weir.

The whole thing sounds like something from Kafka.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
26 Jul 2013 #22
Wait a second, you don't see the advantage of having one central tax off for an entire city?
Seriously?

Actually - I like the current system. For instance - in Poznan, there's one pretty big tax office for each of the former 5 districts within the city. One centralised office would require a pretty huge site near public transport and with a large car parking facility. The cost of building it alone would be massive - but the tax offices are in Communist-era buildings that have been already bought and paid for. Do you want to pay more tax just so tax offices can be centralised?

I'm still amazed that I can stroll down the road and deal with my tax issues in person.

Worth pointing out that at least in the UK, centralisation has been an utter disaster from a customer point of view.


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