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Polish Immigrants Leave America for Europe


RockyMason 19 | 250
5 Mar 2008 #91
outintheyard wrote:
In the USa Farmers are considered rich or upper middle class.

outintheyard wrote:

I do not know a neighboring farmer of mine that is not a millionaire

Yet there are loads of farmers in the US who have lost their farms to the banks or can barely afford to eat.

Just because your experience is one way doesn't make it true for all or even most.

Dude where the hell have u been? farmers rich???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH omgah farmers are not rich! Some are im sure but most are not! Also having a million dollars worth of assets isn't that much anymore! Just because u live in a huge house and drive a nice car doesn't mean anything! If ur on ur 5th year of a 30 year house mortgage ur house owns u! Remember owners equity= assets-liabilities
Philips1 2 | 38
5 Mar 2008 #92
and kindly don't a answer question which was not posted for you....thanks.

This is a forum (if you know what it means). If you don't appreciate people responding to your posts then why even post here.
KasiaG - | 44
5 Mar 2008 #93
It's fascinating how this topic progressed from the Polish immigrants to poor/rich American farmers.. ;-)

Do you think Sikorski is negotiating waiving visas for Poles in return for this anti-missile system (to-be) built here? ;)
Dice 15 | 452
5 Mar 2008 #94
IMO if you're here legally, you speak the language and have some education then you're lucky enough to be a part of the American Middle Class. What that means is that your standard of living is somewhere on the level of the European upper class, so there is no reason to flee the U.S. as the title of the thread suggests.

On the other hand, if you're here illegally, don't speak the language and do not have an education, you're much better off living and working in Western Europe, or even Poland, where the social net is much wider.

I think that most of the people who are returning to Poland or are moving to Western Europe fall into this category.

And then there is the Great Emigration of the 80-90's. This is quite a different story; these are the Solidarity guys who came here when Poland fell into the chaos of the Commie Regime after the spring of the 80's. Many of them had land up here because the Western Europe at the time was too afraid to help Polish Anti-communists, for the fear of reprisals from the USSR. These people are in the retirement age now and many of them decided to retire in Poland.
polishcanuck 7 | 462
5 Mar 2008 #95
nah, it's because they just couldn't hack it here.

Bullseye!

And whoever said america is only for doctors, lawyers and bankers is also wrong. There are many other professions that can provide a very good lifestyle, such as skilled trades workers (HUGE demand here in canada as well), teachers (in small cities), engineers, anything in the medical field, business owners etc. You can also afford to buy a house, unlike in the UK.

These poles heading back were probably (illegally) working underpaid jobs or didnt have any education/skills.
outintheyard 27 | 517
6 Mar 2008 #96
Back to farming. Those who own a thousand acres or more are making substantial income and only have two months out of the year considered work. The only reason any farmer would lose would be because of poor business practices. Just like any other business. I am not sure of Polands practice , but here 500 acres makes $ 50,000 for two months work. Get a second job and you could live comfortably . American is or has become corproate farming and big business and now farms are once again geeting larger and even more corporate. The trick is to own the first 500 acres out right through family or such. This creates the stability. justas in any business , you have to have a capital investment. ANd don't forget land is the best investment in the US
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893
6 Mar 2008 #97
Back to farming. Those who own a thousand acres or more

Ive got a window box!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
6 Mar 2008 #99
frustrations with the process to become legal immigrants, disillusionment with American materialism and a lack of promising employment or financial prospects.

There is a contradiction in that sentense somewhere....

A) If they are struggeling to become legal immigrants then they are there on a limited-time visa, so they had to leave anyway - it is hard for EVERYBODY to become a legal immigrant in the US, not only for Polish ppl.

B) Isn't wanting to have a good job and earning a very good living a form of materialism?

C) Ah, there it is, the contradiction: Promising employment, read: something much better than the odd waitress or busboy... On one hand they despise the American materialism on the other hand they want to be part of it. My best guess is that once they are in the circle of promising employment-opportunities, they will not despise American materialism anymore. Only those who have nothing despise materialism from the ones who can afford it. Funny how this disgust usually disappears very quickly once one also is able to afford to buy loads of stuff you do not really need.

Do they expect to get so much better jobs in Ireland, the UK, Holland or Sweden? With the odd exception, if they have no mentionable education, they will have to do the same sh*tty jobs they're doing in the US. Only difference is that they do not have to apply for a visa.

M-G (realistic)
outintheyard 27 | 517
6 Mar 2008 #100
MARE, you have made light of this contradiction quite well. This i why every one keeps coming to the US. It is the country with the best opportuntiy for sucess.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
6 Mar 2008 #101
It is the country with the best opportuntiy for sucess

That is actually true: if you want to make it in the US, there is nothing put in your way. Whereas in Europe it is virtually nowhere allowed to have 5 (!) jobs at the same time and/or to work for seven days a week, in America this is allowed. Not that I would want to work for seven days, but it's still possible. You can reach great heights over there. Downside however, is that if you do NOT make, because of bad luck or illness or whatever, they don't care about you either. Simple illustration is the number of homeless ppl compared to the number of rich ppl. Often they're only seperated from each other by just a few streets.

M-G (still realistic)
outintheyard 27 | 517
6 Mar 2008 #102
M-G I used to live in Chicago one block off Harlem Ave. The other side of the street was ghetto poor. My side was beautiful gas lit streets and you could walk down them at midnight and still hear the gun fire from across in the ghetto.
moksha - | 18
6 Mar 2008 #103
B) Isn't wanting to have a good job and earning a very good living a form of materialism?

how about something called "security"? even though it has a lot to do with money = finances = your so called "materialism" - it is basic...you need a roof over your head, you need to eat, move around, etc and it all equalls money....how many people do you know whose house is paid off, car paid off and they do not have sky-high credit card debt? a lot of people live totally "on credit"...so maybe that is what Grzegorz meant when wrote "disillusionment with American materialism"? not the providing for basic needs or financial security? Grzegorz??
Dice 15 | 452
6 Mar 2008 #104
Do they expect to get so much better jobs in Ireland, the UK, Holland or Sweden? With the odd exception, if they have no mentionable education, they will have to do the same sh*tty jobs they're doing in the US. Only difference is that they do not have to apply for a visa.

The difference is that over there they will be living legally. And yes, they are illegals we're talking about here, many of them do not speak English. In Europe they're not limited to illegal jobs. Also these countries have health insurance and social net if anything goes wrong.

On the other hand if you're here legally and you have some kind of a college degree you'll live way better here then you would've anywhere in Europe.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
6 Mar 2008 #105
Also these countries have health insurance

the UK, Sweden and Holland do have good health insurances - the one in Ireland is neglectable.

And Moksha: if you want security, you better not go to the US. Everyone knows that there is no such thing as security in that country. I'm not defending the US, but I'm just being realistic here: if you don't work hard over there you will not make it. If you do work hard there and you get sick, you will not make it. And I know this last example first hand from a relative of mine.

M-G (more realistic)
moksha - | 18
6 Mar 2008 #106
i have lived in the US for 20 years...yes, it is not a country for lazy arses who just want "gimme gimme gimme..." looking for everything free (although there is plenty of those)...you want strong social system? - US is not for you. but as Dice said: if you are here legally and are willing to work, it still is a country of opportunities, like no other....qui pro quo...it is a choice many people make.....as to insurance...sure, it ain't free, but worse come to worse, there are always government sponsored hospitals where you get care based on what you can afford - without compromising the quality. chicago's Stroger hospital has some of the best surgeons and docs (army trained) in the country....
jones101 1 | 349
6 Mar 2008 #107
there are always government sponsored hospitals where you get care based on what you can afford - without compromising the quality.

This is simply wrong....the quality has to be compromised. These hospitals are not as well equipped and normally staffed with less experienced workers overall. Most people work for money and they go where the money is.

I worked in both so I speak from experience.
Zgubiony 15 | 1,554
6 Mar 2008 #108
This is simply wrong....the quality has to be compromised

It's not. We have a few of these in NJ. They rotate the same doctors from the local hospital. Not everyone can afford medical, so these places are great to have.
outintheyard 27 | 517
6 Mar 2008 #109
NJ has always had my interest . This state has a very progressive thought process ahead of the others in many issues. I used to enjoy the tax free enterprise zones.
jones101 1 | 349
6 Mar 2008 #110
Listen...as to the quality of care in state funded hospitals the care is NOT as good as the private institutions. Having big docs rotate through is not the only factor...there is support staff, equipment, labs etc. If you don't have the entire care plan set up it falls apart at the weakest link and the quality will only be as good as that. Many of the treatments, meds and procedures are NOT available in these facilities. In the US the more money you have the better care you can buy...kind of like here in PL.

If these places were so great why do people pay more for private hospitals when they can?

I have worked in both and can tell you first hand. Yeah they are better than nothing especially with the pathetic state of healthcare business in the US but nobody who has a choice would go to the state hospital.
moksha - | 18
6 Mar 2008 #111
If these places were so great why do people pay more for private hospitals when they can?

look - i did not say these are great hospital... but at least in Stroger - they used to train us army med personel - so these ARE best docs in a country. those services are provided "on a sliding scale" meaning, you pay certain percentage based on your income. IF YOU CAN AFORD A PRIVATE HOSPITAL you will pay the same or will be send somewhere else from state hosp....kapujesz?if you worked there, you should know...to get care at a state hospital you have to bring your tax return to prove what you can- or can't afford. that's how your bill is determined. and a lot of people do not like to go there, simply because there is a lot of "poor" and "color" people waiting in long lines to get in...not everyone can stomach that, k?

and PL's healthcare system is same as here state owned...lol...i am sure you do not step out of your mercedes on a red carpet, escorted into a private lounge where best doc in a country waits for you to spend all the time in the world to heal you...yeah, right.

which hospital did you work at? (what state?)
jones101 1 | 349
6 Mar 2008 #112
so these ARE best docs in a country

This is entirely subjective...you have no proof of this you are just saying what you have heard. It is like saying a sports team is the best or a car is the best...it is just not so simple and is mostly a matter of opinion.

My point is simply that public access in the US is not as high in quality overall.

Yes I know how the payment system works in state facilities thanks...and that has nothing to do with the public vs private issue.

Unless you have worked in both places you have no real info simply what people have told you. People often speak of things they have no real knowledge of...just what they read or what their friend told them or what they experienced the ONE time they went and got a shot.

I am not sure what you are talking about when you mentioned Poland's system...there is obviously both public and private here and there is a world of difference just like in the US.

A reality in the world is the more money you have the better quality you can buy...this applies to everything including healthcare. Sure it sucks but it is real.
moksha - | 18
6 Mar 2008 #113
Just because your experience is one way doesn't make it true for all or even most.

so would you say "just because you have worked in (only?) one hospital - what went on there doesn't make it true for all or even most?

thanks. i rest my case.....

com'on...i don't know anything about you , how long you have lived in the states, how old you are, etc...(i am not asking)...but i am sure it all figures into your convictions and beliefs...no problem. but you seem to have one standard response "you have no proof!...how do you know???" well, how DO YOU KNOW?? it's great to ask! (i asked what state you worked in - you didn't even respond) you too are making assumptions and accusing others of the same....oh, do be reasonable :)

i happened to be a patient in few different "private" hospitals and i have dealt with their and county hosp. system to find out processes and procedures (my father had to have a surgery there and took my aunt to er once)....so FROM MY OWN DEALING WITH THEM AND EXPERIENCE, be thy only few times...i happen to form the opinion stated above...i did not say if "i like it" or "i don't like it" so i am not expressing my subjective opinion, just facts that i have come across...
jones101 1 | 349
6 Mar 2008 #114
so would you say "just because you have worked in (only?) one hospital - what went on there doesn't make it true for all or even most?

thanks. i rest my case.....

I never said 'one' hospital. Thus the bottom falls out of your case.

I have extensive experience in the field and what I find is a lot of people speak about the medical field and they have no idea what they are talking about. I also have attended courses and networked with professionals all over the world so I am positive I have a better handle on the realities of the systems than you.

I am not going to list the places I have worked because no matter what I write you will somehow use that against me...that is what people do when you answer their questions...they turn it on you...so no thanks.

By saying these places have the best docs around you ARE expressing a subjective opinion...much like someone who ways a certain brand of clothing or auto is the best. You have nothing but your 'belief' to substantiate the claims. Show me save rates or patient satisfaction reports stating better care than other facilities and then maybe you have a start.

I can say BMW is better than Mercedes but that doesn't mean it is true and it is entirely a matter of opinion.
moksha - | 18
6 Mar 2008 #115
Show me save rates or patient satisfaction reports stating better care than other facilities and then maybe you have a start.

patient satisfaction reports...lol...jones101!...lol...you really think anyone gives a damn? if they did, the condition of western medicine (institutions) would not be in the state it is...too much politics involved (hint: pharmaceuticals)

other then that...hm...i would say, even if you get 'any/some care' it still beats 'no care at all'...common sense...what's there to prove??? i never claimed county hosp. are BETTER then rest...

and not trying to prove anything....i am sure you are an EXPERT in whatever field you claim to be. good for you!!! if you don't care to share your expertise in "documented" way, or in other words - if you don't care to PROVE it, that's OK too. i am an ex "de-railed" med student who decided to chase after completely different career, and i have worked in only two ER's, beside my "expertise" as a patient or else...bla bla bla...we got off-road with this topic anyway, although interesting one :)

what i said earlier that started this whole thing - was in response to someone claiming that if you get sick here - you are screwed...i am not sure if that is completely accurate, considering the healthcare system, and beyond and above all - considering what pathetic state "western medicine" is, in general...everywhere. the end.

so - na zdrowie !!! powodzenia.
Wahldo
6 Mar 2008 #116
The US in general isn't for Europeans.. it's too hot then too cold etc , etc, etc. It's too much of this, too much of that.

You're best to stay home and plot our downfall which you dream of in your beds at night. We know this.. we know you come for us eventually. We aren't Europe's enemy, we've just been invented as your enemy. If you must go.. you must go. The sun will probably rise tomorrow. The US owes Europe nothing.. nothing at all.
sledz 23 | 2,250
6 Mar 2008 #117
The US in general isn't for Europeans

They all complain about how bad it is here as they make $$$$$$

Refuse to learn the language and constantly whine about our political matters.

Get your own house in order before you judge mine....

AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!

Do Widzenia to all you that cant hack it!!!!!!!
Patrycja19 63 | 2,700
6 Mar 2008 #118
They all complain about how bad it is here as they make $$$$$$

Sledz.. dont you find it funny how he worded that?

the U.S. isnt for Europeans.. lol yet the U.S. is made up of mostly European!!

lmao. I will continue to say.. never a dull moment.. lol

Get your own house in order before you judge mine....

I agree with this..
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893
7 Mar 2008 #119
You're best to stay home and plot our downfall which you dream of in your beds at night. We know this.. we know you come for us eventually. We aren't Europe's enemy, we've just been invented as your enemy. If you must go.. you must go. The sun will probably rise tomorrow. The US owes Europe nothing.. nothing at all.

Keep taking the tablets...As for the US owes Europe nothing - its all tit for tat mate, you want to build bases in Europe you have to give a little, you want the backing of Europe when you want to invade a country..you have to give a little..you want business in europe..you have to give a little......all one big happy family..
outintheyard 27 | 517
7 Mar 2008 #120
Shell is often right on the point. This is the global economy where one country will no longer bullly the others. watch Japan in the next 5 years . You will see a big increase in the value of their work ethic as China continues to make more and more junk. Remember how they started the auto industry, It is happening again. Poland need to jump on this idea and start mass producing a cheap fuel efficient car of very high quality. Successful companies wiil draw successful talent from the US as Japan did.


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