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GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!


Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
6 Nov 2008 #211
So let's make it a Toruńczyk, how's this for compromise BB.

Now let's use some Latin alphabet and I'm okay with that! :)

Now you are asking for too much.

Heeeeey! :)
osiol 55 | 3,921
6 Nov 2008 #212
what`s wrong with Neanderthals? They are first known Whites

Is really known what colour skin these humanoids had? They died out. They did not contribute anything to humankind as we know it. Crow is more closely related to Thabo Mbeki than any Neanderthals who roamed prehistoric Europe. Or maybe there was a small handful of survivors, some of whom post on PF.

find someone else to stalk

Am I still allowed to stalk you?
Dice 15 | 452
6 Nov 2008 #213
GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)!!! OUTRAGE!!!

Really, who cares?
Crow 155 | 9,025
7 Nov 2008 #214
Scratch a German and you will find a Pole.

i telling that all the time

So...you mean the genocidal mass murderer of the last century where deep down true Poles?

we had debate in case with penis problems because of germanization. Same way, brain can be affected and one can go crazy, irresponible for behavior

rychlik:
GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)!!! OUTRAGE!!!

Really, who cares?

my cat don`t care that`s for sure. How about you?
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
7 Nov 2008 #215
Bratwurst Boy, as an impartial observer, I gotta say you've convinced me. Good work on backing up your arguments.

I don't know why people (in this case poles) get all butthurt about Kopperlingk being German and not Polish, like it really changes their day to day lives. It all seems so utterly childish to me, but then again, I wasn't raised with a nationalist pov.
Tran Anh 2 | 72
8 Nov 2008 #216
Nah, great persons as role models benefit a country's education, its culture and its overall health more than trillions of USD freebies from the IMF. 'The right to be inspired' is certainly not a matter of childish importance, it can make a deadly difference between a poor, emasculated nation and a vibrant, initiative and creative one (some cases even between a dishonorable and an honorable one). In an ideal world, great (in the most wholesome meaning) persons are stateless and they would inspire the whole lot instead of some pieces of communities here and there. But as we are living in reality, fierce competition for 'inspiration property'between nations is natural, and in the viewpoint from within a country, it is even much obligational (you are fighting not only for your pride and inspiration, but also for your children's and their children's...etc).

Therefore, Poles have right and obligation to fight for the 'ownership' of Pan Kopernik especially when the German vice-president of the mentioned space program Verheugen, is the one who threw the gauntlet first* (who certainly has a dim view of sharing!) At such a state, suffering being called petty is actually a prettier prospect than losing about thousands of young talented scientists in the future (of course, as long as Chopin is still Polish, those thousands can be fine pianists instead!) Anyway, time to yell "To arms, Poles!"

*Let's see what Verheugen said "Kopernikus was also a true European: he wrote in Latin and German and studied, lived and worked in several different countries in Europe." A rather sophisticated hypocrite, eh! In one sentence, he managed to both stress that Copernicus was German and this Germanshould be a model, a pride of Europe and Europeanization! Why on earth that he insists to use a German (and provincial) name for the one he deems "a true European" and for a project that is even more quintessential European despite the Latin version being overwhelmingly popular in Europe and in the world? A Polish EU MP probably had the best answer: "by using the German spelling, Verheugen falsifies history and betrays either a lack of awareness or bad intentions". Nuff said.

eubusiness.com/news-eu/1223570827.01

ec.europa.eu/kopernikus/overview.htm
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
8 Nov 2008 #217
Well...he WAS German

He wasn't. Almost everywhere around the world he is identified as Polish. The whole "Germanization" of Kopernik started in 19th century, when such nonsense was promoted to give Gerries some reasons to be proud of themselves and boost the unification process. One of the funniest things made up in those times was "He didn't even speak Polish!" crap... let me guess, Hans Andreas and Helga invented the time machine, traveled a few centuries back, met Kopernik, asked him something in Polish and he shouted "Nicht verstehen !" ? Even If he wasn't Polish, such a brainy guy living in this part of the world would definitely learn It. And If Gerries had had some real arguments, they wouldn't have invented such nonsense.
southern 74 | 7,074
8 Nov 2008 #218
I have heard that Bolek and Lolek were actually german.Is this true?
lesser 4 | 1,311
8 Nov 2008 #219
People look at this issue from a biased perspective of our times. At that times there was no developed concept of nationality, while Copernicus was just loyal servant of Polish king. Nationality is how you consider yourself and not how others think about you.
Prince 15 | 590
8 Nov 2008 #220
his father was from Cracow ... anyway

When we talk about language:
Polish language in writing was created by Mikołaj Rej (1505-1569)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikołaj_Rej

"Mikołaj Rej or Mikołaj Rey (Nicholas Rey) of Nagłowice, Poland. He is considered, along with Biernat of Lublin and Jan Kochanowski, to be one of the founders of Polish literary language and literature."

"A niechaj narodowie wżdy postronni znają,
iż Polacy nie gęsi, iż swój język mają."

("Let it by all and sundry foreign nations be known
that Poles speak not Anserine but a tongue of their own."
)

Most people in Poland were writing in Latin in Kopernik's times.
Arien 3 | 719
8 Nov 2008 #221
Excuse me, but aren't we all the same human beings?

You just love to have something to bicker about don't you? If it's not about German people, then it's about Jewish people, if it's not about Jewish people, it's about Slavic people..

Kopernik. Copernicus. Whatever? He spoke German. Does speaking German make you German? I don't know? If you're born in Poland, but raised in Germany and are accustomed to German culture and traditions, does that makes you Polish? I don't know?

Pointless? I'm sorry to squash your discussion but if you were born on this planet, then that's good enough for me. Why can't people be proud of humanity and be proud of all the great minds from History? How about that?

Maybe in about a few decades there will be no England, Germany, Poland, France or Holland.. Who knows it'll change into the United Nations of Europe and then what? Are we then going to bicker about the Germanicness or Slavicness of people who still carry a Polish or German surname?

Maybe we will all speak Polfreglish by then? (It's in the making trust me, only smart people know this!)

LOL

I was born in Holland, does my name look Dutch to you? Not really. Seriously, who cares? Does my name makes me French? Does the fact that I was born in Holland make me Dutch? I don't know, maybe I prefer the weather in Spain? It's not where you're from, it's who you are. It's where YOU feel at home.

My point? We're all Europeans. Or better yet, human. Copernicus (Or Kopernik if you prefer!) is an historical figure of some importance and he died ages ago so we can't ask him if he felt Slavic or German..

End.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658
8 Nov 2008 #222
You cannot apply your modern, nationalistic mentality to the Copernican era. You cannot successfully apply your thinking to Copernicus because he existed at a time when people generally didn't think like you do. You could humble yourselves some and learn a thing or two.

You will just have to share Copernicus with others, like it or not, just like the rest of the world learns to share. You need to learn to share.
miranda
8 Nov 2008 #223
I think Copernicus doesn't really care;)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,149
8 Nov 2008 #225
Cool. Do you have a rainbow flag over your house ?
miranda
8 Nov 2008 #226
another waste of space
Arien 3 | 719
8 Nov 2008 #228
Cool. Do you have a rainbow flag over your house ?

It probably doesn't answer your question?

another waste of space

This whole thread is? So I might aswell agree with you again!

No?

I'm jealeous of Arien's smileys....

Shall I give you a tutorial then?
miranda
8 Nov 2008 #229
This whole thread is? So I might aswell agree with you again!

sure, he is dead, he was a great scientist and his presumed nationality is not relevant to Polish issues in any practical way.

I he was alive maybe he would not want anything to do with neither Poles nor Germans, since during his time "nationality" concept was not something one would argue about or even care.

It became an issue of legacy ownership, nothing more.
southern 74 | 7,074
8 Nov 2008 #230
I think Copernicus doesn't really care;)

I think he did care because he was given the chance to declare by actions his nationality.
miranda
8 Nov 2008 #231
I think he did care

even if you can prove it, it is still irrelevant to the present issues in Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
8 Nov 2008 #232
I think he did care because he was given the chance to declare by actions his nationality.

Correct:

The Copernicus manuscript book states : [...] Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician...(Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis, in Borussia Germaniae mathematici)

Yo! :)
He stated it even explicitely and repeatedly with his famous works...
southern 74 | 7,074
8 Nov 2008 #233
it is still irrelevant to the present issues in Poland.

Historical heritage is always a hot issue.For me the claim that Alexander the Great was not greek is outrageous for example.Even more the claim that Ephesos for example was a turkish city.
sledz 23 | 2,250
8 Nov 2008 #235
Copernicus statue in Chicago
miranda
8 Nov 2008 #236
Historical heritage is always a hot issue

I cannot see why. Does it make me a criminal?

For me the claim that Alexander the Great was not greek is outrageous for example.

can you prove it? I think that it is impossible since it was so long time ago. Therefore arguing about legacy and heritage without proving it is pointless.

Even more the claim that Ephesos for example was a turkish city.

I wonder why Italians don't claim that England is indeed Italian and Spain Arabic. How far back can we go in order to waste time on pointless discussions?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,739
8 Nov 2008 #237
I cannot see why. Does it make me a criminal?

The famous heads of a people belong to the treasure of the heritage, shared by all of this big family (what else is a people if not a grown big family).

It IS important and shouldn't be negotiated or given away lightly...

But it's true that Kopernikus stands for the centuries of overlapping and diverging Polish/German history and could become a real symbol for that.

But as long as Poland and Germany harbor so much hostility he is also a problem.

Once a new generation lives peacefully side by side without harboring any grudges anymore the Kopernikus case will be seen differently I believe - not as a divider but as a connector....
miranda
8 Nov 2008 #238
But it's true that Kopernikus stands for the centuries of overlapping and diverging Polish/German history and could become a real symbol for that.
But as long as Poland and Germany harbor so much hostility he is also a problem.

agree, but this seem to be endlessly discussed on PF and I am simply bored.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658
8 Nov 2008 #239
I never understood the nationalistic pov. Wouldn't it be better if everyone abandoned this antiquated way of thinking and just went where they wanted without any pretense? Everyone would be happier and much better off.

The Copernican ideal inspires me: Cosmopolitan, learned type of individual.
lesser 4 | 1,311
8 Nov 2008 #240
This concept have nothing to do with Copernicus. Otherwise he would not be loyal to the certain crown.

People, come on, how long you will ignore the difference between our times and period when he lived?

The language formed national identifies among people (especially in Central Europe) much later. Still, this is not any deciding criteria even in our times, look at Austrians or German speaking people in Switzerland. They don't consider themselves 'German'.


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