GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!

rychlik 41 | 372

15 Oct 2008 / #1

WARSAW - Poles are up in arms over what they complain is the European Commission's "Germanization" of the name of the father of modern astronomy, Nicolas Copernicus, in the title of an EU space program.

The commission has officially changed the name of the EU's GMES (Global Monitoring for Environment and Security) programme to "Kopernikus," the German spelling of Copernicus, at the initiative of Commission Vice President Guenter Verheugen, a German. The Polish spelling is "Kopernik."

thelocal.de/14801/20081010

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #2

What do you know about Copernicus' family? His upbringing? The languages he used?
Convince me! :)
What do you think makes him polish?
Does "Watzenrode" sound polish to you?

Thus the child of a German family was a subject of the Polish crown.

plato.stanford.edu/entries/copernicus

'nuff said!

...we should just split him in half...:)

Filios1 8 | 1336

15 Oct 2008 / #3

What do you know about Copernicus' family? His upbringing? The languages he used?

German boy, this is serious stuff!

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #4

It IS serious, I agree!

I can't understand how you Poles want to claim him as he was born in German territory (which later changed hands as this happened so often), into a German family, spoke probably never polish in his life (his works are in Latin and germane)...

We could surely share him but this polish claim that he was all-polish, absolutely denying and ignoring his GERMAN HERITAGE p*isses me off!

I'm for sharing! :)

economicexpert.com/a/Copernicus:nationality.htm

One can say summarizing, that Copernicus' working language was Latin, his mother tongue was German, his sovereign was Polish and his father tongue was probably Polish. He is undisputedly a Central-European.

:):):)

Julekcg 1 | 35

15 Oct 2008 / #5

Kopernik was comander in Polish army fighting agianst Germans. He won battle agianst Germans. His mother was German and fahter Polish.
Google : "Władysław Anders" Polish commander in WWII he had german roots. Do you consider him German or Polish ?

By the way, what does it mean ethinc German ? Eastern Germans are Germanic or Slavic or Polish or Lusatian ?

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #6

Here are people on this board who consider Klose and Podolski traitors for playing as Germans for the German national football team...I don't think that is helpful! :)

Eastern Germans are Germanic or Slavic or Polish or Lusatian ?

Eastern Germans are Germans...why should they be Slavs???
Lusatians are Slavs...or so I've heard...

By the way, what does it mean ethnic German ?

What does "Slav" mean???

Julekcg 1 | 35

15 Oct 2008 / #7

Polish don't claim Germans thinkers with Polish roots - Polish.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche

"A later revision of the same passage was discovered in 1969 among the papers of Peter Gast. In it Nietzsche is even more adamant about his Polish Identity. “I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood.”"

We consider him German and we use German name of this philosopher. In Polish we would call him Niecki (his grandfather name). He considered himself Polish.

Kopernik considered himself Polish and fighted in Polish army and Germas use his German name - it is wrong.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #8

Kopernikus has definitely German roots and probably polish too...but he wasn't a germanized Pole, he was a GERMAN, grown up with German culture, educated at German schools. That is the background to his later scientific success!

economicexpert.com/a/Copernicus:nationality.htm

The Copernicus manuscript book states : [...] Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician...(Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis, in Borussia Germaniae mathematici)

That his political leanings were against the Teutonic Order doesn't make him Polish!
A political allegiance isn't heritage!

But as I said before, we should officially share him... why won't you?

OP rychlik 41 | 372

15 Oct 2008 / #9

Bratwurst- He was born on Polish territory at that time and what you write about his upbringing and education is just what Germans have taught you. No historian or encyclopedia will tell you that he's German so think about why that is? This is stupid! All of a sudden he's German?? Prove that he wrote his work in German? I suppose you think Auschwitz was Polish?

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #10

He was born on Polish territory at that time

What an argument! :)

Tell me borders which shifted more over time...Why not claiming Günther Grass or the Red Baron too while you are at it? There are hundreds of popular, important Germans born and living in once German/now Polish territories...

And he isn't "suddenly" German...just read his bio!

Prove that he wrote his work in German?

There are no extant letters written by Copernicus in Polish - those which have survived are all in Latin or German. However, Latin was at the time the international language of scholars and those letters in German might have been addressed to German-speakers and therefore for this specific purpose written in that language. The official languages of the Holy Roman Empire were Latin and German. (The Spanish Habsburg emperor(s) had to sign an agreement, to only use Latin or German in official HRE business.)

Kopernikus himself:

Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician...(Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis, in Borussia Germaniae mathematici)

Julekcg 1 | 35

15 Oct 2008 / #11

I gave exaple "Friedrich_Nietzsche" one of the moust famous German philosophers. And gave his qutotation.

"A later revision of the same passage was discovered in 1969 among the papers of Peter Gast. In it Nietzsche is even more adamant about his Polish Identity. “I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood.”"

You use his names German version. Original name is not "Nietzsche" original is Niecki.

Now we go back to Kopernik soldier in Polish army defending Poland against Germans studing in Cracow. Now Germans change his official name. It is ridiculous. Make up your mind.

But as I said before, we should officially share him... why won't you?

Lets share Merkel she has some Polish blood. Why Germans don't share Porsche with Czechs.

OP rychlik 41 | 372

15 Oct 2008 / #12

And he isn't "suddenly" german...just read his bio!

He has never been known as German. Get that through your head. The German arguments are BS- you know it. You believe your BS cuz you're German. Let's get the Brits to settle this. Answer why nobody else sees him as German???

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #13

Yes, everything has "polish blood"...let's claim some more....

polishgirltx

15 Oct 2008 / #14

I can't understand how you Poles want to claim him as he was born in german territory (which later changed hands as this happened so often), into a german family, spoke probably never polish in his life (his works are in latin and german)...

we need him to feel better about ourselves...
;)

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #15

What makes him Polish??? His German mother? His German schooling? His German mother tongue??? WHAT???

Bring some arguments to support your side next please....

When you don't want to listen to ME maybe you will listen to Nicolaus Kopernikus himself:

we need him to feel better about ourselves...
;)

I know that....but facts have to stay facts!
And as I said before I'm all for sharing to help you out...but the only one who are against that and totally ignore the "German" facts and want to claim him for themselves alone are the Poles!

He has never been known as German.

And here you err again..I grew up in school with the teaching that Kopernikus was German and reading first about your claims I didn't know if you just made fun or if you were serious...

Julekcg 1 | 35

15 Oct 2008 / #16

Yes, everything has "polish blood"...let's claim some more....

She said so in interview.

Open Polish phonebook and look on names there is plenty foreign sounding names. Without mentioning the most popular Polish name Nowak (it is like english Newman).

Filios1 8 | 1336

15 Oct 2008 / #17

I am a neutral observer of this argument, and now do declare that the Poles have won. Copernicus is, and always will be a Pole in all our minds.

Yes, thats right German Boy, take that Bratwurst and stick it somewhere where the sun don't shine!

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #18

Fili, you are neither neutral nor do you bring any arguments for your side!

A polish way of discussion surely but it won't help you much...neither here on this board nor in the EU! I fear if your PiS arguments like you do (feet stompin, tantrum throwing) the project will stay named "Kopernikus"...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Monitoring_for_Environment_and_Security

Julekcg 1 | 35

15 Oct 2008 / #19

Now we are going to call Porsche Czech company, Nietzsche - using his original name Niecki. Paul Newman - Jew. German point of view is very nationalistic.

OP rychlik 41 | 372

15 Oct 2008 / #20

In 1491 he enlisted at Krakow Academy (Jagielonian now). I don't claim to know everything about Kopernik but even if he did have some German education (some believe his mother was German) than so what?? He was Polish through and through and spent his last days in Poland.

The stupid German bastards don't want to let things go. This, German land claims- pretty soon people are gonna think WWII was started by Poland!!!

Filios1 8 | 1336

15 Oct 2008 / #21

nor do you bring any arguments for your side!

1. Copernicus was born on Polish land (at the time yes, and the boarders change often, yes, FACT, but it was Polish at the time)
2. If he really felt so proud to be German, he would have helped his fellow brethren in capturing more Polish land
3. His father was Polish, and considered himself Polish. Males count more it seems, (patriarchal society) when determining nationality in the centuries past, therefore, Nicholas is Polish.

4. He studied in Krakow primarily, and that is where he was first exposed to astronomy by a Polish professor, and he may have indeed studied at German schools as well, but he studied in Bologna and Padua too. Does that make him Italian?

and by the way....

neither here on this board nor in the EU! I

I don't give a flying **** about the E.U!

OP rychlik 41 | 372

15 Oct 2008 / #22

he studied in Bologna and Padua too. Does that make him Italian

Very good point! The Poles are right about being suspicious of Germans trying to have too much control in the E.U. This is what happens.

Filios1 8 | 1336

15 Oct 2008 / #23

POLSKAAAAAA, BIALO CZERWONI, POLSKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, BIALO CZERWONI!

Raus!

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #24

1. Copernicus was born on Polish land (at the time yes, and the boarders change often, yes, FACT, but it was Polish at the time)

Shortly before it was a longtime German Hansestadt...do you really think that changed overnight???
Remember...no forced expellations of the native population!

3. His father was Polish, and considered himself Polish. Males count more it seems, (patriarchal society) when determining nationality in the centuries past, therefore, Nicholas is Polish.

Evidence please!
You would be the first one actually to bring such, since even the name suggests that also his father was german!

He several times signed as his name Kopperlingk, possibly because his father's family business in the city of Thorn/Torun was copper and therefore the Low German Kopper (High German Kupfer) and the -lingk ending indicated someone who dabbled in copper. It has been the custom of German people to take on the occupations or the town names as last names.

Just read the link again...

Why are you ignoring Kopernikus himself? Would he write that if he was a proud Pole???

Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician

And again...why not sharing him?

One can say summarizing, that Copernicus' working language was Latin, his mother tongue was German, his sovereign was Polish and his father tongue was probably Polish. He is undisputedly a Central-European

POLSKAAAAAA, BIALO CZERWONI, POLSKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, BIALO CZERWONI!

Raus!

I can go...but that won't strengthen your argument nor will it make Kopernikus polish over night, sorry! :)

The Poles are right about being suspicious of Germans trying to have too much control in the E.U. This is what happens.

What happens?
The German led EU using a time machine to make Barbara Watzenrode giving birth to baby Nikolaus just to spite today Poles??? Whoa....that is so mean! :(

You should definitely rise up against that terror regime! Who knows what else those devilish Germans have planned against the poor Poles!

Filios1 8 | 1336

15 Oct 2008 / #25

Shortly before

2 days, 2 years, before, after, who cares? What counts is that was within Polish boundaries at the time.

Copernicus and his uncle Watzenrode remained Catholic.

If he wanted to remain Catholic, and the Teutonic knights were Catholic then why...

organized the defence of Olsztyn

Just read the link again...

Yawn.. Kopperlingk. So its German. It proves nothing but the fact that his dad dealt with more rich Germans in his business than rich Poles.

Since you bring out arguments from a page you didn't cite, maybe I can be so kind as to show our good people the counter arguments made within the same source.

since even the name suggests that also his father was german!

that Copernicus' great-grandfather had obtained citizenship in the city of Kraków around 1400. Kraków, like many medieval cities, had been created under Magdeburg law and later became a Hanseatic League city, but was Polish.

In terms of the political geography of his time, the position that Copernicus was born Polish is undoubtedly correct.

I have a great grandmother that lived in Silesia district her entire life, didn't speak a word of Polish, yet her parents could trace her lineage to Northern Poland. And she considered herself Polish!

Finally,

This has gotten us nowhere. What remains is the fact that the Germans are attempting to Germanize a man that was obviously a Polish citizen. Why must they change history books?

Julekcg 1 | 35

15 Oct 2008 / #26

It wasn't only German custom many Polish have name comming from town thy live in - it was Jewish custom - it was Polish peasants custom. You give strange sources. Maybe we should claim Russian minister Polish.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Yastrzhembsky

Sergey Vladimirovich Yastrzhembsky (Russian: Сергей Владимирович Ястржембский, Polish: Siergiej Władimirowicz Jastrżembski), born December 4, 1953, Moscow, is a Russian Federation politician and diplomat born into a Polish family, Jastrzębski vel Jastrzembski

Maybe we shpuld call Joseph_Conrad Polish

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Conrad

Joseph Conrad (born Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski, 3 December 1857 - 3 August 1924) was a Polish-born English novelist. Many critics regard him as one of the greatest novelists in the English language-a fact that is remarkable as he did not learn to speak English fluently until he was in his twenties (and always with a Polish accent).

We don't change his name.

Maybe we should call Sarkozy Jew.

Maybe we should call Merkel Polish

German point of view is strange in this mixed part of europe. Kopernik had German mother. So what ? my mother has German roots too. I am Polish.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #27

2 days, 2 years, before, after, who cares? What counts is that was within Polish boundaries at the time.

Interesting viewpoint...I will remember that for another discussion :)

You don't consider the millions of Poles who lived for centuries in the german Empire/Prussia as Germans just because they were born between german boundaries, don't you???

If he wanted to remain Catholic, and the Teutonic knights were Catholic then why...

Read the link...it was all about politics...

Yawn.. Kopperlingk. So its German. It proves nothing but the fact that his dad dealt with more rich Germans in his business than rich Poles.

Well, his father's name was Kopperlingk (GERMAN), his mother was Barbara Watzenrode (GERMAN)...but son Nikolaus is of polish heritage now because.......???

And she considered herself Polish!

That's great for your grandmom but Kopernikus surely did feel differently or he wouldn't had used this sig in all of his books:

Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician

What remains is the fact that the Germans are attempting to Germanize a man that was obviously a Polish citizen.

What remains is the fact that Kopernikus wasn't a Pole or a germanized Pole but a GERMAN, subject of the polish crown!

And we don't have to change our history books as our children know already that he was German...

German point of view is strange in this part of europe.

Yup...truth hurts!

Filios1 8 | 1336

15 Oct 2008 / #28

I can go...

No, please, the place was just heating up!

a Pole or a germanized Pole but a GERMAN, subject of the polish crown

Really, tell me the honest truth. Because if all "foreign" subjects acted like he did, then each country would really be without any cultural conflict of any kind. So you tell me he was a German that fought his own kind? Now what kind of PROUD, decent German would do this when a Teutonic victory would have resulted in the greater good for glorious Germany?

That's great for your grandmom but Kopernikus surely did feel differently or he wouldn't had used this sig in all of his books:

But surely he would have aided his fellow Germans then?

Julekcg 1 | 35

15 Oct 2008 / #29

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_Anders

He is not German.

I am not German my moter has German name so what? I am Polish.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820

15 Oct 2008 / #30

Fili? You didn't read the link, didn't you? Because there everything is explained....

There was a civil war in Prussia at that time!

Now what kind of PROUD, decent German would do this when a Teutonic victory would have resulted in the greater good for glorious Germany?

How did you fare in history in school Fili?