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Crucifixes to stay in Polish schools


Harry
24 Nov 2009 #121
Keeping priests out of the (state school) classroom and stopping them indoctrinating kids would be the logical first step.

Stopping them from buggering small boys would be a slightly more logical first step.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
24 Nov 2009 #122
Harry, please, no personal problems on this forum.
jonni 16 | 2,485
24 Nov 2009 #123
Stopping them from buggering small boys would be a slightly more logical first step.

I wish I could find the statistic, from a more or less recent study of reported child abuse cases in English-speaking countries, that even taking into account the disparity in numbers of adherents betwen christianity and the other groups studied, children are 90% more likely to be sexually abused by a christian priest or minister than by any sort of occultist, pagan, wiccan, thelemite, satanist or new ager.

It would evidently be much safer for childrens' rectal wellbeing if we banned from schools, the ministers of J. Christ, and brought in the ministers of A. Crowley.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
24 Nov 2009 #124
children are 90% more likely to be sexually abused by a christian priest or minister than by any sort of occultist, pagan, wiccan, thelemite, satanist or new ager.

...and 100% more by an Alien. Do you know a lot of satanists who deal with schoolchildren?
jonni 16 | 2,485
24 Nov 2009 #125
know a lot of satanists

I know a few satanists (I move in very eclectic social circles), and all of them (at least the ones I know) are married and either have kids or work with them. Here in Europe there seems to be a fair few working in healthcare and the media, over in the US, a surprising proportion of adherents in law enforcement.
Mr Grunwald 25 | 1,731
24 Nov 2009 #126
That will make a nightmare someday for me
jonni 16 | 2,485
24 Nov 2009 #127
Most are surprisingly normal. Except for the lawyers of course!
TheOther 6 | 3,818
24 Nov 2009 #128
I know a few satanists
(I move in very eclectic social circles),

These statements contradict themselves.
Babinich 1 | 455
24 Nov 2009 #129
That was a poor comeback, Babinich.

Stop the silliness...

Fact: The Apostles were the first priests of the Church.

"As the Father has sent me, I also send you" (John 20:21)
lesser 4 | 1,311
24 Nov 2009 #130
One can't indeed be atheist in one place and christian/jewish/muslim/hindu/scientologist/buddhist in another. One can however respect the principle that religion is a private matter, and the workplace is not a place for it.

One cannot stick to Christian concept of morality at home, only to switch to something else at work. This is just propaganda of atheist left that something like this is possible.

The EU as an entity is neither christian or any other religion. It is secular. Its citizens are free to believe in something or not. The EU does not interfere withthat.

Secular, it means that only atheists or Christians by the name only are allowed to hold important posts in this clearly anti-Christian institution. When I write anti-Christian I mean policies run by the EU which very often contradict Christian teachings. This is just another reason why the EU cease to exist.

Because people can learn the messages for themselves, lesser, and not contribute to a profit-making organisation.

People can learn from authority and they are not authority for themselves. You are a teacher yourself, you should know better. If a child would not consider you as an authority in some certain area of knowledge then wont bother by your lessons. Why don't you advocate children and adults to learn everything from themselves. Generational progress is highly unlikely with such logic applied.

Beside of that, perhaps atheist left would organize some help for Africa to replace Catholic missionaries? Oh I forgot they already send millions of condoms, how generous! :) Perhaps atheist left would organize colonies for poor children, run orphanages, organize football leagues for children? Oh I forgot, currently they plan to settle "condom machine" in each every school, how generous! :) Perhaps atheist left would offer as much attraction to elderly people as the Catholic Church does? Oh I forgot, they offer them euthanasia free of charge (translation - paid by taxpayers) and those who they consider the greatest would be put into a giant condom like Lenin 85 years ago! :) If only atheist left would remove condoms out of their heads then they would perceive reality how it is. Refraction effect is very misleading, this is scientifically proved :)

I wish I could find the statistic

You could write such a poem but this is not proper thread.

I wish I knew what you were thinking
I wish I could read your mind
I wish that we were together now
I wish I could call you mine

I know a few satanists

I must be very lucky man, somehow I managed to live without knowing even a single one. Here I must admit, I stick mosty with normal people...
jonni 16 | 2,485
24 Nov 2009 #131
stick to Christian concept of morality at home, only to switch to something else at work.

One can be professional at work. If that compromises christian (or any other) beliefs, then it's time for a career change.

Secular, it means that only atheists or Christians by the name only are allowed to hold important posts in this clearly anti-Christian institution.

Can you point out the relevant clause in the Treaty of Nice that spells that out?

they are not authority for themselves

So you prefer an invisible, unprovable authority?

somehow I managed to live without knowing even a single one

How would you know? Not everyone shouts about their personal beliefs.
osiol 55 | 3,922
24 Nov 2009 #132
Secular, it means that only atheists or Christians by the name only are allowed to hold important posts in this clearly anti-Christian institution.

Are you confused about what secularism is? It is not the same thing as the EU. The EU is secularist, but only a fool would assume that all secularism is the EU or even that theirs is the only form of secularism.

One cannot stick to Christian concept of morality at home, only to switch to something else at work. This is just propaganda of atheist left that something like this is possible.

Now it is also a left-wing concept to you. Anyone can live their whole life as a Christian and live and work in a secular environment. Some religions make non-belief an impossibility. An example of this is in Iran where people must sign declarations of their Islamic belief in order to get places in universities or even professional-level jobs. And don't fool yourself into thinking this is an Islamic thing. The same thing could happen and probably has happened in Christian countries.
Ogien 6 | 245
24 Nov 2009 #133
What a bunch of moronic liberals posting here. Poland is a Catholic nation. It will remain that way. Get out of Poland if you don't like it that way.
jonni 16 | 2,485
25 Nov 2009 #134
Poland is a Catholic nation.

Not all Poles are catholic. Not all catholics go to church (much less than 50% in some parts of Warsaw). Not all catholics are extremists. Some like Radio Maryja, some hate it. Some shout their religion from the rooftops, some practise it in their hearts.

It will remain that way.

The number of people attending mass suggests that that could be far from true.

Get out of Poland if you don't like it that way.

Many Poles have done just that, and are enjoying the freedoms of London, Paris, Amsterdam not setting foot in a church from one month to the next. And they have the freedom to do that.

Interesting how the posts here supporting a so-called religion of peace are often filled with bile and hatred. If that's what christianity's like, then thank you, but no thanks!
osiol 55 | 3,922
25 Nov 2009 #135
jonni

No! Everything is black and white! You are either with us or against us, saint or sinner. It is not possible to believe in a religion and not want to impose it on every other man, woman and child in the world whether Christian or Atheist or any other form of belief system known to humankind. (My tongue has now bored a hole in my cheek just as certain threads have the ability to bore a hole through my skull). That was my alternative response.
jonni 16 | 2,485
25 Nov 2009 #136
It is not possible to believe in a religion and not want to impose it on every other

Where do you get that from then? Did the founder of your religion try to impose it?
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
25 Nov 2009 #137
Interesting how the posts here supporting a so-called religion of peace are often filled with bile and hatred. If that's what christianity's like, then thank you, but no thanks!

Interesting line of reasoning. Basing Christianity on posts on PF. I didn't know we had such influence.
Babinich 1 | 455
25 Nov 2009 #138
and are enjoying the freedoms of London, Paris, Amsterdam

Interesting choice of cities.
jonni 16 | 2,485
25 Nov 2009 #139
Great cities all of them.

Madrid, Stockholm, Berlin, Rome, Vienna, Dublin, New York, Sydney, Tokyo would do just as well.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
25 Nov 2009 #141
I know a few satanists (I move in very eclectic social circles), and all of them (at least the ones I know) are married and either have kids or work with them.

You are against clergy in schools, but you have no problem with satanists in schools? Frankfurt School of thought, huh?
jonni 16 | 2,485
25 Nov 2009 #142
but you have no problem with satanists in schools?

I didn't say that or anything like it.

I said I disapprove of apologetics lessons in state schools, conducted by clergy of any type.

I said I know a few satanists.

I said that all (at least the few I know) are married and either have kids or work with them. Nothing, nothing at all, about satanists teaching their religion in school :-)))

Please actually read a post before commenting on it. It would help you potentially avoid being accused of stupidity.

For information, I would have the same problem with a minister of religion indoctrinating children in state schools, whether christian, occult, hindu, whatever. The private beliefs of someone who works with kids, whether in a school or elsewhere is a matter for them.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
25 Nov 2009 #143
I don't know what does the fact that these satanists you know have children have to do with anything, but working with other people's kids doesn't bother you. I understand you now.

I think you didn't understand me though. In Poland, religion is optional in school. About 15% of kids do not attend those lessons. There is no chance of "indoctrination."

Just out of curiosity, what do satanists ask Satan for in their prayers?
jonni 16 | 2,485
25 Nov 2009 #144
I don't know what does the fact that these satanists you know have children have to do with anything

This:

Do you know a lot of satanists who deal with schoolchildren?

was your original question. You seem to be having difficulties following the thread.

but working with other people's kids doesn't bother you.

It bothers me enormously. Schools and other places where people work with children have to ensure the highest professional standards.

I think you didn't understand me though. In Poland, religion is optional in school. About 15% of kids do not attend those lessons. There is no chance of "indoctrination."

For the 85% whose parents do not withdraw heir kids, religious apologetics lessons often take the form of a catechism. The children are taught that the catechism responses are the truth, and other answers are not. This is a form of indoctrination.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
25 Nov 2009 #145
For the 85% whose parents do not withdraw heir kids

Those 85% have no problem with it since it is their religion, 15% who choose not to attend can't have a problem since it does not affect them, so where is your problem? What other forms of indoctrination are you against in schools? Patriotism?
jonni 16 | 2,485
25 Nov 2009 #146
so where is your problem?

Seems to be more your problem than mine :-))

What other forms of indoctrination are you against in schools? Patriotism?

Do you really think patriotism is indoctrination? Gosh!

Of course if encouraging patriotism crossed a particular line (as in some totalitarian states) it probably would be. But here in Europe at least it generally stays positive.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Nov 2009 #147
Lesser, don't confuse regular classroom topics like Math, Biology and Geography, for example, with Religious Education (RE). Remember, it was YOU that said they should take religious discussions outwith the classroom and let the parents teach it. We just come from a different background. For example, I did RE in school and got 100% in my major exam (high school). I knew that I could do extra study for myself then.

What am I getting at? NOT ONCE have I heard anybody discussing the Bible here in the streets or class, Lesser. Now I'd understand if they wanted to improve their knowledge of the Holy Book by going to a priest. However, he is for things like confession (even though Jesus absolved us anyway) and general belief as much as anything. I can believe and feel God around me without the need for a priest, trust me on that!

Babinich, this is the inherent danger of the Bible and misinterpretation. I was discussing forgiveness, justification and satisfaction. Many believe, rightly or wrongly, that Jesus's sacrifice was enough through imputation. You are discussing Apostles as the general preachers of the Gospel, sth which came to be after the casting of the net wider. Initially, they were of greater importance in Judaism as there was a clear separation between Jews and Gentiles. All of the Apostles were Jews I think. Christianity, mainly Catholicism, changed things to capture their services.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
25 Nov 2009 #148
Do you really think patriotism is indoctrination? Gosh!

I clearly don't. Many Marxists do. I'm just trying to get to know you better.
cheehaw 2 | 263
25 Nov 2009 #149
So you prefer an invisible, unprovable authority?

A lot of people would disagree with you. Invisible to us generally perhaps, but lack of proof, far from the truth.

Perhaps it would be more proper to state, God has not revealed himself to you. Because millions of others do say, He has revealed Himself to them.

maybe it's just something you need to work on.
jonni 16 | 2,485
25 Nov 2009 #150
but lack of proof

Says it all.

Because millions of others do say, He has revealed Himself to them.

Millions of others say they have seen aliens. They have revealed Themselves to them.
Millions of others believe that Mohammed is the prophet of Allah, millions believe in a pantheon of deities, millions of others believe Kim-Il-Jong is the leader of the free world.

It doesn't make any of them right. (Or if something doesn't need proving, as you say, it doesn't make them wrong either.)

maybe it's just something you need to work on.

Perhaps you could work on a less religious and more rational worldview? You try atheism for a while, and I'll maybe have a look at Christianity.


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