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Crucifixes to stay in Polish schools


Gaa 2 | 155
15 Nov 2009 #31
COMPLETELY FAKE CHRISTIANS.

because they don't go to church? it's enough if they believe in God.
what's your problem with wall crosses?

Wonder if the situation will ever deteriorate to the point where someone brings a case to court to remove the national emblem since it is promoting nationalism.

Piorun - | 658
15 Nov 2009 #32
Fake Christians.

Same can be said about you FAKE HARE KRISHNA. Remember it's your perception and opinion which counts for **** in my book, so please state it as such or proclaim your faith at the nearest airport for all to see.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #33
It is enough if they believe in God, I agree. However, Catholicism places the emphasis on the priest as an intermediary whereas Protestant and Judaists don't accept this, saying that you can feel God all around you.

Please tell me some Catholic practices and good works, Gaa? Please describe justification, infusion and mass to me.
Gaa 2 | 155
15 Nov 2009 #34
Catholicism places the emphasis on the priest as an intermediary

yes of course a perfect catholic goes to church every sunday and follows all the church rules.but i know a lot of people, including myself, who hardly ever go to church but they consider themselves catholic.i very often disagree with what the pope, the church says.i don't support it finacially. i know people who never go to church but they believe in God. so the people are probably those fake christians as £ódź called it. but if you asked them if a cross on the wall is a problem for them i can assure you they would say-no.people who are against it are the atheists or other religions believers but they are in minority so..
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #35
Please tell me, why are you a Catholic and not a Protestant? What ideological differences do you see? I assume that society pushed you into Catholicism as so many of my Polish friends tell me.
Gaa 2 | 155
15 Nov 2009 #36
because i was brought up in a catholic family in a catholic country nobody forces me to it. catholics uznają kult maryjny(i don't know how to say it in English).

i don't like talking about religion because for me it's a very personal thing.i'm not a catholic fanatic, i'm not going to convert anyone or force to believe.i don't show off with it and i don't judge people by what they believe in or if they belive in anything .there are good people among non-believers and bad people among catholics.Amen.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #37
What were you brought up to believe, Gaa? Brought up is an active process so what did you learn from that process in the context of Catholicism?

I appreciate your right to privacy on this matter and it is also not forum etiquette to overly discuss it so please say only what you will.

I just would like some insights into what you value and how you see your religion as opposed to Protestantism.
lesser 4 | 1,311
15 Nov 2009 #38
i'm not a catholic fanatic, i'm not going to convert anyone

Do you suggest that Jesus was a fanatic? After all, he was deeply involved in evangelization.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #39
Maybe the better choice of words would be devout Catholic. Fanatic smacks of sth evil and radical. Devout gives the idea of firmly committed.
lesser 4 | 1,311
15 Nov 2009 #40
If you believe something to be true, this is very selfish to keep this knowledge exclusively to yourself. Christianity is about sharing.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #41
Exactly, lesser. Inner spiritual faith, by its very innate nature, is a private internal matter as it goes into intrinsic motivation but that's not what we are talking about here.

We are talking about actual teachings of the Catechisms and raising people based on concrete values and standards. That's religion Vs spirituality. Gaa, why are you not a Protestant or other Christian denomination? What distinctly Catholic notions were instilled in you?
lesser 4 | 1,311
15 Nov 2009 #42
Gaa, why are you not a Protestant or other Christian denomination?

Seanus, judging from her posting she is a Protestant, although not a member of any specific sect . She does follow protestant way of thinking about Christianity.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #43
Perhaps, lesser, perhaps. Why would you say that, though?
Gaa 2 | 155
15 Nov 2009 #44
you ask me why i'm catholic and it's like why are you an atheist.you can easily google what catholics believe in:) you either believe or not.

i believe in life after death, angels and devils ..and many other things but i don't think it's the right place to talk about it taking into consideration that majority of this forum members are atheists(not very religion friendly atheists) i may be burnt at the stake in a moment;]

She does follow protestant way of thinking about Christianity.

ok.
may God forgive me. i can be Protestant for you if it makes you happier. and fake christian for others.

:P
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #45
Not at all, that's a silly thing to say, Gaa. An atheist doesn't believe in God but a Catholic believes in God. So does a Protestant. They believe in God but there are differences. Believing in sth is quite different from not believing.

Why Google when I have a Catholic here on a forum? ;) ;)
Gaa 2 | 155
15 Nov 2009 #46
exactly. they both believe in God, there are differences but not so much important for me. i'm not a devout Catholic. why i'm Catholic and not Protestant? because my family were Catholic when i was born, it was the first religion i learnt and first in which i started believe. it was conviencing enough for me. others weren't really.

Why Google when I have a Catholic here on a forum? ;) ;)

ahh so you found your victim;]
now as a martyr i deserve my place in heaven...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #47
What did you learn? What beliefs did you form? What other religions were you exposed to and why didn't they convince you?

Not a victim at all. I'm just curious to see how you manifest your religious beliefs.
Gaa 2 | 155
15 Nov 2009 #48
Seanus

you ask me as if i was a priest.. or nun maybe.
i'm not even religious.
i wasn't much exposed to other religions,i admit. i just read about them.they just weren't convincing enough, not enough proofs,not enough interesting, i didn't care about believing in them

don't try to make an ateist of me, please... i want to believe that when i die in about 80 years it won't be the end;p;]
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #49
And where is the evident proof of Catholicism? I don't expect you to expand on the theological difference between imputation and infusion. What did your parents pass down to you? You made a choice and I respect that.

I am not here to convert anyone or even persuade. I just want you to tell me what you like about the Catechisms and why Catholicism is so compelling. We have separate schools for Catholics in Scotland and it's interesting to see such a separation.

Reincarnation gives us hope and, as Morgan Freeman tells us in Shawshank Redemption, hope is a good thing :)

Reincarnation strikes me more as a spiritual issue that goes to the core of the soul and not sth determined by a dogma.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
15 Nov 2009 #50
...And I'm still waiting for the first scandals of priests abusing kids within the Catholic church. Just wonder if they will try to brush it under the carpet like they tried in Ireland, until it becomes too big and they can't anymore. In Ireland it was the main reason for the de-catholisation - I'm sure if a thing like that would happen in PL, support for the Catholic church would drop significantly. Public schools are public schools, they should never impose one view on the children, or they should have (like I mentioned in the other thread about this topic) symbols of all religions present in a country or nothing at all. A corner somewhere in the building should be sufficient enough to show the kids the options, but that should be it. I read that 70% of the Polish population is practicing Catholics. To impose the Catholic symbol to a class of 20 therefore would mean on gross average that you would impose Catholicism to 6 children who are either belonging to a different religion or who have chosen not to live by an obsolete system. I say that is a pretty big group to ignore. If there ever will be official legislation concerning this, PL will have to adhere as well, as any other country. It's not to deny any religious way of life, it's just about imposing other values to a growing group of ppl who have a different lifestyle. And the Vatican? Who is taking the Vatican still serious nowadays?

Edit: and Seanus, the concept of seperate Catholic schools or Protestant schools I have advocated thoroughly in the previous thread.

>^..^<

M-G (public schools are public schools and Kaczinski should back down a little, before he makes himself even more impopular in Europe)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
15 Nov 2009 #51
...And I'm still waiting for the first scandals of priests abusing kids within the Catholic church.

Where ? In Poland ? There are a few such cases each year.

I'm sure if a thing like that would happen in PL, support for the Catholic church would drop significantly.

Oy !

Public schools are public schools, they should never impose one view on the children, or they should have (like I mentioned in the other thread about this topic) symbols of all religions present in a country or nothing at all.

Public schools in Poland don't impose any religion on anyone, they will have symbols accepted by parents of kids attending them and what some Dutch guy (gay?) think about It means nothing at all.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
15 Nov 2009 #52
Public schools in Poland don't impose any religion on anyone, they will have symbols accepted by parents of kids attending them and what some Dutch guy (gay?) think about It means nothing at all.

Prayers before the start of class. I would say that's imposing religion upon kids. As long as the EU finances a lot of things in PL from my (and other's) taxmoney, the opinion of those taxpayers does matter.

Where ? In Poland ? There are a few such cases each year.

The more incredible it is that ppl still believe in an institution that's abusing their children.

>^..^<

M-G (if the EU makes it law, PL will have to obey)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #53
Prayers before the start of classes??? Who gave themselves the right to make this compulsory? First I've heard of it, M-G.
lesser 4 | 1,311
15 Nov 2009 #54
Perhaps, lesser, perhaps. Why would you say that, though?

Catholics recognize authority of Vatican based (or recognized by Vatican) theologians. They consider them competent to interpret Bible, teaching of Christ. Protestants on other hand, may absorb such interpretations from anybody and often make such interpretations themselves. Protestantism have difficulty to keep constant line, unlike the CC. People are targeted by more and more modern theories, they are divided on more and more sects. This explain why there is so many Protestant sects, because essence of Protestantism is an endless protest. At the end of the road, there is atheism. One could say, the last protest. Take a look at gaa posting. She seems to be ashamed of religion and this ios first step towards atheism. She might even follow her personal beliefs in this form how she confessed here. However there is high possibility that she wont pass even this to her children and they will become atheists at least until late middle age.

you ask me why i'm catholic and it's like why are you an atheist.you can easily google what catholics believe in:) you either believe or not.

Yes but according to your previous replies, this logic don't apply to your way of being. Thus, Seanus has the right to be confused.

And I'm still waiting for the first scandals of priests abusing kids within the Catholic church.

Open minded person would not wish such situations to happen. You are simply blinded by hate if you wish to see abused children just to proof your silly thesis.

And the Vatican? Who is taking the Vatican still serious nowadays?

You meet here many people absolutely friendly to Vatican. Do you see only things that you like to see?

public schools are public schools and Kaczinski should back down a little, before he makes himself even more impopular in Europe

If you have inferiority complex towards "Europe", it doesn't means that everybody else have the same problem.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
15 Nov 2009 #55
Seanus

It wouldn't surprise me...

You are simply blinded by hate if you wish to see abused children just to proof your silly thesis.

Have a look at what happened in Ireland, a good Catholic country...And besides your fellow knight of Catholicism admits that it happens...

If you have inferiority complex towards "Europe", it doesn't means that everybody else have the same problem.

That's the problem with your thinking. There is absolutely no reason why Poland should have this moral superiority complex as they are one of the receivers of EU money...A little more humble would be in place. And as for the EU; I am a citizen of one of it's founders and we pay, together with Germany and Sweden relatively the most to the EU, so it's not a question of inferiority, it's more a question of how long are we willing to pay for new countries that want to collect, but not adhere. It's plain and simple.

Protestantism is an endless protest

Indeed, a protest against the corrupt Catholic church :)

>^..^<

M-G (also it wouldn't surprise me if the heroes of Catholicism here on PF cheerfully welcome this)
lesser 4 | 1,311
15 Nov 2009 #56
Catholic Church did a great job in Ireland and some incidental examples of immoral behaviour of individual members wont affect overall pictures. The point is that people openly hostile to the CC will always underline every misbehaviour of each every priest and never mention good job of the rest of clergy. Who grew up in Catholic country knows very well activity of the CC and wont be fooled by claims of outsiders like yourself.

That's the problem with your thinking. There is absolutely no reason why Poland should have this moral superiority complex as they are one of the receivers of EU money...

I was talking about personal inferiority complex that you seems to have. I'm not a collectivist socialist and I don't believe that nations or states might have inferiority of superiority complex. This is personal question.

I know that you will underline "your" Dutch supposed help to "mine" Poland. This is all so fake. Firstly we don't know whether you would personally give us anything if this would depend from your own will. Secondary, I never asked for any help. What is more I oppose the EU claims to Poland.

Indeed, a protest against the corrupt Catholic church :)

If this would be true, then there would be only one Protestant sect.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Nov 2009 #57
Lesser, where does it say in the Bible that there should be a conduit in the form of a priest? It expressly states otherwise. Jesus imputed his morality into man through his sacrifice.

Also, please explain God's grace to me (łaska Boga). Is it, by nature, merited or unmerited?

Before I go any further, let me show some amazing debates from the John Ankerberg show

They explore all manner of issues and they are enlightening. I tend to side with Dr Walter Martin.

Lesser, what value do you attach to the Council of Trent?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
15 Nov 2009 #58
lesser

Yeah, the Catholic church really did a great job in keeping Ireland behind on every Western European country. And I definitively wouldn't say that there were JUST a few incidents with priest abusing children. If it were minor incidents, how do you explain that most Irish give this as reason for leaving the Catholic church?

Have a look at this website, only the Flemish pay more than the Dutch. 10 Euros to be precise. The Dutch pay 272 Euros per head, the Flemish 282 Euros per head.

redicecreations.com/article.php?id=7925

Have a look at the "hitparade" for 2007; you'll see who's a contributing country and all countries not mentioned are receivers. Don't be so ungrateful.

And besides, you seem to have several ideas about my personality. It's sometimes funny to read them as it proves that you just don't have a clue :)

Edit: and finally, if Protestantism is a sect, then Catholicism is as well.

>^..^<

M-G (if European states are supposed to co-operate, PL will have to adhere to a might-be EU law to remove all crucifixes from public schools)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
15 Nov 2009 #59
(if the EU makes it law, PL will have to obey)

No we wont and who the fock are you to even post here, you dont know anything about Poland and its history you little human trash.
lesser 4 | 1,311
15 Nov 2009 #60
Lesser, where does it say in the Bible that there should be a conduit in the form of a priest?

I'm sure that you have heard about apostles

Also, please explain God's grace to me (łaska Boga). Is it, by nature, merited or unmerited?

I'm not sure whether I understand your question correctly. It is merited, if you don't deserve you wont be offered mercy in afterlife (hell).

Forgive me I'm too busy recently, I have no time to watch films on You Tube.

Lesser, what value do you attach to the Council of Trent?

Please specify your question, I'm waiting for comeback of traditional Latin mass to my church.


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