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Crucifixes to stay in Polish schools


southern 75 | 7,096
29 Nov 2009 #271
I remember in our school there used to be crucifixes and portraits of great inspiring men like him.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #272
The Church need to keep their role to keep their profits flowing and this has been a mainstay criticism of the RCC. Frankly, I find it disgusting that people profit from religion.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
29 Nov 2009 #273
Firstly the presence of crucifixes in classroom is completely unsubstantiated, moreover religiously unsubstantiated. They are used marely as tools of magic. There's no much meaning to them, so why hang them in the first place.

Hold your horses!
Sweeping generalizations are sometimes tools of magic. Poland's circumstance may pose some difficulties with yours.

The second sentence about the history of Poland from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland#Piast_dynasty:

Poland began to form into a recognizable unitary and territorial entity around the middle of the 10th century under the Piast dynasty. Poland's first historically documented ruler, Mieszko I, was baptized in 966, adopting Catholic Christianity as the nation's new official religion, to which the bulk of the population converted in the course of the next centuries.

It would be unusual to find any book on the beginnings of Poland as a nation that does not include Christianity as an important, perhaps decisive factor in both the creation of the nation.

And that was just the beginning. Poland's history is soaked with Christianity. Crucifixes and Hail Marys are dripping all over the country's history. Their role of in Poland's politics and history made the crucifix much more than a symbol of magic. Over the centuries it has become the symbol of the nation.

Christianity in Poland has certainly had more practical influence on the character of the nation than the magical White Eagle but nobody seems to oppose the idealized image of that Eagle in Polish school. Let's throw the Eagle out of Polish schools!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #274
Well said, Dariusz. I just wish people would actually educate themselves more on that, on basic theology.

Just look at the new thread on the annulment of marriage. Does that holier-than-thou woman know what it means to be a Christian? I doubt it! If she really knew The Bible, she'd know that Jesus was fundamentally against remarriage. What she is doing, by invoking the church, is tantamount to sacrilege.

As my close Polish friends tell me, most don't have a clue about their religion and that's blind faith.
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
29 Nov 2009 #275
As I have said many times in the past, during conversations with the vast majority of my students, they believed in going to church, but mostly so that they wouldn't be looked down upon from their peers. When you would actually question their beliefs, most wouldn't agree with the church.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #276
True enough. I actually did a discreet check of their views and they actually fit the Protestant way of thinking. Given their limited knowledge of theology, none of them twigged what I was doing. Leave the labelling to the theologians who actually know what they are speaking about as opposed to laypeople who should just call themselves Christians. That's just my view, though.
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
29 Nov 2009 #277
Well being Catholic myself and not believing in god. I just came out and grilled them :/ Guess we have different teaching methods :P
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #278
"Being Catholic myself and not believing in God", LOL. I guess we do, Davie ;)
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
29 Nov 2009 #279
auck you know what I mean ;) LOL

You would say i have commited the biggest sin, changing from protestant to catholic just for the sake of getting hitched!!! Now if my family knew about that there would be an uproar! So better me sweeping that little thing under the Polish carpet ;):P
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #280
I know exactly what you mean ;) ;)

Why not keep religious labels out of it altogether? Love is a Christian notion, regardless of denomination.

Not advisable. Whisky should be the cure for pain and falling but if you are already drunk then it doesn't work that way.
frd 7 | 1,399
29 Nov 2009 #281
All right let there be an extra crucifix in history classroom beside the religion one. Next to it lets hang pictures of dead taborites and other "pagans" and pictures of Perun and Swiętowit. Let's even out the overview to symbolic pros and cons.
southern 75 | 7,096
29 Nov 2009 #282
Of course this is not a proper crucifix for school.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #283
You can be thankful that no-one will come and tear them down like as happened in Kosovo-Metohija. The desecration of the churches there was abominable! Never let the skull&crossbones brigade in.
lesser 4 | 1,311
29 Nov 2009 #284
All right let there be an extra crucifix in history classroom beside the religion one. Next to it lets hang pictures of dead taborites and other "pagans" and pictures of Perun and Swiętowit. Let's even out the overview to symbolic pros and cons.

I think that people in Poland and not only will stick exclusively to Christian crucifixes. But thanks for advise.

Of course this is not a proper crucifix for school.

I'm sure that political establishment would accept something like above as an exception. Picture of Mohamed with a bomb on his head would be of course unacceptable.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
29 Nov 2009 #285
All right let there me an extra crucifix in history classroom beside the religion one. Next to it lets hang pictures of dead taborites and other "pagans" and pictures of Perun and Swiętowit.

Would those be hanging above or below The Star-Spangled Banner? I wonder how those stars help Americans. Do they have to do with Hollywood or space travel? Are the stripes really a symbol of pyjamas?

How about the teddy bear (Berlin). Would that mean people in Berlin hunt bears? Hug them? Screw them?

Is there any zoo-philia going on among some of the British nobility who use lions among their symbols? Or is it just a love for cats?

Symbols are all around us. Like it or not.

My only point is that you incorrectly approached the meaning of the crucifix in the context of Poland's history. That is somewhat understandable since you obviously have little knowledge of Polish history.

Poland's acceptance of Christianity was critical in the creation of the Polish nation, and on many occasions, it its survival. I have an impression the topic is crucifixes in Polish schools that are paid for by that same Polish nation.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #286
That's right, Dariusz. Poland doesn't have the same strife as in the Balkans where you have different religions competing. You are not thrusting anything at people by having crosses in schools, it's just a symbolic entity that pupils can choose to see or not to see.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
29 Nov 2009 #287
You are not thrusting anything at people by having crosses in schools, it's just a symbolic entity that pupils can choose to see or not to see.

In reality pupils have few choices That's how the world works. Adults make the choices for them - from the school curriculum to the color of the school's walls and what's hanging on those walls.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #288
That's also true. However, children have minds of their own (funnily enough) and they can become curious if they wish. I've never heard of 'Bring your own cross day' :)
z_darius 14 | 3,968
29 Nov 2009 #289
However, children have minds of their own (funnily enough)

So would you say that Spice Girl posters would be a better choice than a crucifix in Polish schools? Or would you vote for The Little Mermaid?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Nov 2009 #290
It's quite clear that crosses are desirable in a Christian country such as Poland. I also don't like commercialism so no posters :) :)
cheehaw 2 | 263
1 Dec 2009 #291
I read a news article this evening where the vatican says that the swiss ban on minarets is religious discrimination.

it was on one of those UK news sites.

hmm. I posted this in the wrong thread.. sorry.. whoops... o
mbiernat 3 | 107
1 Dec 2009 #292
Ronald Regan said it best. Government should support Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
The crosses should stay in hospitals and schools.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Dec 2009 #293
Why deny your culture? It is there to be shown to others and if they can't accept it, that's their problem.
melissab 2 | 8
1 Dec 2009 #294
Interesting posts- although some people could learn to be a little more tolerant, even during disagreements, and maybe a little more respectful.. i find it difficult to take a post seriously when the individual sounds smart throughout, and then becomes ignorant and rude, taking cheap shots. but thats besides the point.

since a lot of this conversation turned to the EU, i was wondering if anyone knew of a good website or newspaper to get news on various European Union happenings? i don't live in Europe, and i guess i don't know where to get accurate and unbiased, but also more in depth, current affairs and news.
BrutalButcher - | 391
1 Dec 2009 #295
accurate and unbiased

Good luck in finding accurate and unbiased news on the EU.
tadoz 1 | 30
1 Dec 2009 #296
Ronald Regan said it best. Government should support Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

George W. Bush also said: "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595
1 Dec 2009 #298
Poland benefits more from the EU than any other country.

Poland is one of the few countries that getsmuch more money than they pay.

And if many Poles couldn't go abroad to work, they rate of unemployment would be extremely high in Poland.
southern 75 | 7,096
1 Dec 2009 #299
George W. Bush also said: "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully"

G.W.B. was a wise president.
tadoz 1 | 30
1 Dec 2009 #300
Yes, some time ago when asked if he believes that Crucifixes are to stay in Polish schools he said “I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe -- I believe what I believe is right”


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