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The cross in Polish parliament - Does it bother you?


hythorn 3 | 580
22 Oct 2011 #61
If you want a symbol representing a corpse of a martyred man and his death tool hanging there - then there's something wrong

your lack of faith must be a great comfort to you :-)

always remember that there is nothing that an atheist can't do if he doesn't know if he believes in it or not
jadis
22 Oct 2011 #62
Seriously, there's a simple solution, Cross with Jesus on it is a religious symbol and should be limited to churches and few other places, Cross without Jesus is a cultural symbol and that's it, as one would have to be a total moron to deny largly Christian roots of European culture.

Finally someone who makes sense in this dump.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
22 Oct 2011 #63
A cross without Jesus is a cultural symbol of what exactly? Just to be clear.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
22 Oct 2011 #64
Just a technicality -- the symbol displayed in the Polish Sejm is not a cross but a crucifix, i.e. a cross containing a figure portraying crucified Jesus. This particular cruicifix was offered to the Polish people by Marianna Popiełuszko, the mother of the martyred Blessed Jerzy. One of Palikot's activists is Roman Kotliński, a friend of priest-killer Grzegorz Piotrowski who actually employed him in his blasphemous smut-sheet 'Fakty i Mity'.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
22 Oct 2011 #65
the symbol displayed in the Polish Sejm is not a cross but a crucifix

Quite powerful one too judging by all those comments, it even reaches across the ocean, bothering many Yanks, a real testament of its power despite their belittling it.
rybnik 18 | 1,461
22 Oct 2011 #66
I worked on the Polish Constitution with a Polish legal executive but I don't see it as being relevant here. If the cross being there is so unconstitutional then why hasn't it been removed? Doesn't Poland respect its own traditions and Constitution?? You might get some answers from asking yourself that, Olaf my friend.

If the "loose ends" aren't tied up Constitution-wise, your vocal minority will continue to harp on it. No?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
22 Oct 2011 #67
Of that I am sure, rybnik ;)
AntV 4 | 387
24 Oct 2011 #68
Read the constitution first and you'll know.

But, according to the Polish Constitution it does say in the preamble that the Polish nation is beholden to its culture rooted in its Christian heritage. The christian heritage of Poland is predominantly Roman Catholic. Therefore, the crucifix has a constitutional place, if you will, in the Sejm.
Olaf 6 | 956
24 Oct 2011 #69
Olaf, the law is an a*s! That's an English expression. How many people make such laws?

I was talking about a supreme law act of the country. And bear in mind that Christians wrote it. But somehow they didn't see it fair and necessary to favour anyone, even them.

If the cross being there is so unconstitutional then why hasn't it been removed? Doesn't Poland respect its own traditions and Constitution??

It was hung at night, without prior consent and debate. Since then every polititian was afraid to raise the topic of removing it not to loose support. That's all. And the method how the cross got there in the first place is speaking for itself.

But, according to the Polish Constitution it does say in the preamble that the Polish nation is beholden to its culture rooted in its Christian heritage. The christian heritage of Poland is predominantly Roman Catholic. Therefore, the crucifix has a constitutional place, if you will, in the Sejm.

It says that none religion should be favoured, so hanging one religious symbol is abuse. Also, I think it is unnecessary. It's not church, it's a place of work [supposedly;) ] of MPs, who should focus on other things.

your lack of faith must be a great comfort to you :-)
always remember that there is nothing that an atheist can't do if he doesn't know if he believes in it or not

Well, it is not about believing but knowing, or not knowing. Believing is for people who stopped asking questions and are satisfied with a belief that's not even their own but usually indoctrinated into them. I myself am not feeling comfortable when I am told to believe something unreal and very unlikely. Instead I prefer to keep my feet on the ground firmly and know what to expect. It's far more comforting than an odd belief, that is an insult to logic thinking.

always remember that there is nothing that an atheist can't do if he doesn't know if he believes in it or not

By the way - I just checked this quote out of curiosity as it didn't make much sense to me. It was about AGNOSTICS not atheists. Then it makes more sense, nevertheless it was in Monty Python's sketch
hythorn 3 | 580
24 Oct 2011 #70
you are right, I just checked it
My memory is failing me

one of my favourite sketches where they use a ballistic missile to blow up a church
because they were complaining about the noise of the church bells

hilarious
Olaf 6 | 956
24 Oct 2011 #71
They were amazing with those silly ideas. Like a French castle in the middle of Britain etc. or a Norwegian parrot that was "pining" for the fiords...

They know how to look on the bright side of life!
AntV 4 | 387
25 Oct 2011 #72
It says that none religion should be favoured, so hanging one religious symbol is abuse. Also, I think it is unnecessary. It's not church, it's a place of work [supposedly;) ] of MPs, who should focus on other things.

My home is not church but I got crucifixes all over the place :)

Right, the Polish Constitution says that no religion should be favored, but also says that it is beholden (wdzięczni) to its christian cultural heritage. Like all law there is synthesis needed here. The constitution regards the Polish nation as having an obligation to its christian heritage, but also realizes that others should be free to worship as one pleases (I would argue this regard for religious freedom is very much rooted in Christian thought and history--regardless of the historical blemishes of years past). In other words, the Polish Nation, in its constitution, is saying it citizens may worship as they please, but as a nation it recognizes its Christian (read Catholic) roots as having a special place in its history and culture; which it undeniably does.

How exactly is it an abuse to hang a crucifix in the Sejm?
boletus 30 | 1,366
25 Oct 2011 #73
As I see it - the Polish constitution is screwed up .. once again.Talk, talk, talk, but there is actually very little logic in it. Listen:

PREAMBU£A
my, Naród Polski - wszyscy obywatele Rzeczypospolitej, 

zarówno wierzący w Boga 

będącego źródłem prawdy, sprawiedliwości, dobra i piękna,

 jak i nie podzielający tej wiary (…)w poczuciu odpowiedzialności przed Bogiem lub przed własnym sumieniem ...

Preamble
we, the Polish Nation - all citizens of the Republic, either believing in God being a source of truth, justice, goodness and beauty, or those not sharing this belief, (...) in the sense of responsibility in front of God or your own consciousness ....

What on Earth is it? Could not a nation of smart logicians on the scale of Jan £ukasiewicz come up with something logical enough in the preamble to our constitution? What I see now is simply garbage put forward by some lawyers, with no philosophical or logical training. According to binary logic: One either should follow some strict Christian doctrine and be damned on the long run for its shortcomings or one should put forward some sort of an atheist doctrine. But if you want to accept some wishy-washy stuff in between, then you have to follow some wishy-washy logic. And you do not have to look around too much: here comes our own famous Jan £ukasiewicz with his perfectly designed three-valued logic (there are some other multi-logic system). The easiest one offers three choices: true, false, maybe. If Poland is not ready for it yet, that is, if Polish politicians are not prepared to discuss issues in therms of three-valued logic, then Poland should go back to the old victorian black & white binary religion, logic and justice: Christian is good, the heresies are bad. Otherwise - it is all about image, pretending to be a democratic country... Just pretending...

I am not saying that this is specifically Poland's fault. But I do not care what French do; I care for good Polish constitution.
rybnik 18 | 1,461
25 Oct 2011 #74
How exactly is it an abuse to hang a crucifix in the Sejm?

Because as a RC symbol, it clearly denotes favoritism AND it upsets a vocal minority. The governing body of the land, it seems to me (the cudzoziemiec, I know) should remain impartial even in matters of faith.
Olaf 6 | 956
25 Oct 2011 #75
My home is not church but I got crucifixes all over the place :)

That is your right, su casa est su casa. And that is perfectly fine.

However, if crosses OR ANY other religious symbols are put in public places then it is not ok. I think there is no need for that. What are they for? To show domination, which - according to the constitution shouldn't be happening in Poland. Religion will not suffer if it will not be advertised, will it?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Oct 2011 #76
Olaf, so what if sb plants a timebomb in the Sejm? Would they hold round-the-clock discussions on whether it should be there or not or would sb have the sense to defuse it or send it on somewhere else? ;) Their own support is more important than the Constitution??? That really is a blow for Polish law enforcement and, frankly, immature of them.

If religion is solely believing then the church is the cross's rightful place. However, if I've interpreted it correctly, Catholics value 'good deeds' which means you have to work in society to achieve salvation. What's the problem with having crosses as reminders of Jesus's sacrifice?? Why are their crosses on the side of the roads for fatalities?
Olaf 6 | 956
25 Oct 2011 #77
However, if I've interpreted it correctly, Catholics value 'good deeds' which means you have to work in society to achieve salvation.

I think one can make many assumptions, including even this one. If it works for you. But first one should be working on themselves.

What's the problem with having crosses as reminders of Jesus's sacrifice??

First of all it's creepy. A figure of a dead man tormented to death will be reminds me that the ones who see this symbol as holy are... not thinking about life as much as about death (to put it nicely).

Do they need to be reminded? Or if it's just putting a trademark that says: we own this place. Try to exchange this logo for e.g. ... Coca-Cola logo. It would mean that the government is either sponsored by Coca-Cola Co. or that at least has a deal with them.

We all know that Church has such influences there, but putting their logo as signature to this is even a greater abuse.
Does religion really need to advertise if it is about truth and real faith?

Why are their crosses on the side of the roads for fatalities?

I don't know. It's an uncommon custom outside Poland. It's also rather creepy. There is a similar custom in Italy, but instead putting a cross near the road where sb. died, Italians often put a little chapel if they SURVIVED an accident. Do you see the difference?
gumishu 11 | 5,857
25 Oct 2011 #78
Why are their crosses on the side of the roads for fatalities?

if you ever heard about energetic side of life the cross has a very specific effect on these - it drains the energies into the earth and thus no fragmented parts of souls and no disembodied people are able to remain on the spot (at least this is what many people who are able to see the 'astral' energies say)
Olaf 6 | 956
26 Oct 2011 #79
So basically this works like an astral fertilizer machine? I knew it! There must've been something in this shtick.

Awesome. How much energy can I produce if I make a field of crosses? Will this be an alternative power source of the future?

;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Oct 2011 #80
But that dead man, in the eyes of many religious folk, saved us all. Now we moan about the concept of martydom but Jesus essentially started that so why can we have cause for complaint when Palestinians do it for a noble cause?

Olaf, the RCC will get in and about in any which way it can. It's their way to spread their tentacles into every nook and cranny of Polish life.

Yes, I see the difference. Jesus Saves in the eyes of Christians :) :) Still, the cross can be used as a RIP symbol. You are blessed with life so can be blessed before the afterlife, as some believe.

As Bill Hicks jokingly said, though, do you really think Jesus wants to see a cross upon his return as the Divine Messiah? ;) ;)
Olaf 6 | 956
26 Oct 2011 #81
Now we moan about the concept of martydom but Jesus essentially started that so why can we have cause for complaint when Palestinians do it for a noble cause?

Let's not go off-topic too much. Palestinians are a different thing and they have nothing to do with the cross in Polish parliament.

Olaf, the RCC will get in and about in any which way it can. It's their way to spread their tentacles into every nook and cranny of Polish life.

I agree fully on this. That interfering and overwhelming presence is what bothers many people, whether they are believing Christians, Catholics or not.

As Bill Hicks jokingly said, though, do you really think Jesus wants to see a cross upon his return as the Divine Messiah? ;) ;)

Hah! :) He would be pis*ed if he saw that!
Why people didn't choose some symbol of LIFE instead of death?

And what do you think about this as an astral fertilizer enhancer machine? I am confused here ;)
f stop 25 | 2,513
26 Oct 2011 #82
As Bill Hicks jokingly said, though, do you really think Jesus wants to see a cross upon his return as the Divine Messiah?

lol good point
hythorn 3 | 580
26 Oct 2011 #83
Olaf: As Bill Hicks jokingly said, though, do you really think Jesus wants to see a cross upon his return as the Divine Messiah?

it wasn't his best work but he went out sh!tting himself, riddled with cancer, dying alone in the end as we all must do

on that happy note... your Anti-Christian sentiment is almost as obsessive as the most rabid born-again and and born-again-blind evangelist
it is almost like people who give up smoking cannot stand other smokers

like a misery loves company sort of thing if you will

come on, what is the story?

I am intrigued

in fact that was originally a quote from Seanus but I am intrigued to hear your story about why you feel so strongly against the cross

my personal belief is that I do not really have particularly strong feelings either way with regards to the cross in parliament and believe that the church

should keep its snout out of politics. Then again hanging a cross up in parliament cannot really do any harm in a country which professes to be God fearing
Olaf 6 | 956
26 Oct 2011 #84
in fact that was originally a quote from Seanus but I am intrigued to hear your story about why you feel so strongly against the cross

come on, what is the story?

Ohhhhh all right sit around and listen, I'm gonna tell you how it all started... ;)))
You're over-interpreting a bit. There is no story. I strongly feel it is wrong to put one religious symbols over another and hang them in public offices, parliament or schools and hospitals. That is too much and not fair. And the more some radicals try to mark their terrain by pushing such ideas like building a Giant Jesus figure or secretly putting a cross in the sejm at night etc. the more I try to give arguments just to balance this (but it's rather hopless, I know). Is this what religion is about? Marking the terrain with logos, trademarks, just like dogs **** on trees to mark their terrain, as someone put? I doubt it. Therefore I'm just balancing ideas, that's all. I am not obsessed and did not start threads like these (but like to chip in when they show up). That is taking up a topic when it's raised, not raising it.

And since there is not much just and sane balance in some areas as this one, I will write sometimes controversial views, just as controversial and unacceptable views I read about having a crucifix hung somewhere. Like that changes anything.

and believe that the church
should keep its snout out of politics

I agree with this personal belief of yours.

your Anti-Christian sentiment

I may be sentimantal but certainly not in these areas. ;)

it wasn't his best work but he went out sh!tting himself, riddled with cancer, dying alone in the end as we all must do

Interesting point there. I am going to leave you some bit to feed your idea that I am

as obsessive as the most rabid born-again and and born-again-blind evangelist

: Somehow I also feel that the divine plan doesn't simply hold water because how can a thinking man treat a plot like this: a belief in a supreme, divine entity, (being one, but in trinity at the same time) that put an original sin to people who it created and sent out its divine son for torture and death to wash off the original sin from the humans. Further, the humans were given free will, but there's a list of 10 things (later supplemented by RCC by another ones...) that it forbids. And finally, according to this plot, all people are born with the original sin and live their lives in fear of hell and demons. This cruel incorporation of guilt to every follower cannot be work of a god that loves it's creation. And since religion has been the major cause of killing, torture and death if you look back in times, then I am far from following such a path where one should kill or be killed basing on which imaginary friend they choose to believe in.

;) Comming back to original topic - is the cross in parliament NECESSARY? And why was it put there in such a way, rather than openly, during the day, and legally?
hythorn 3 | 580
26 Oct 2011 #85
thanks Olaf

great post
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Oct 2011 #86
Olaf, it wasn't off-topic at all. I was trying to get you to comment on the nature of a dead man and how you found it creepy. Martyrdom is central here. Was Jesus a martyr or not?

I think Jesus would prefer to see fish and bread :) :)

Original sin? That's a dangerous and downright erroneous concept right there. This is where Protestantism fares much better than Catholicism IMHO.
LwowskaKrakow 28 | 431
26 Oct 2011 #87
And since religion has been the major cause of killing, torture and death if you look back in times

Absolutely. And do we know a Religion which treats women well or at least normally?
Apart from Buddhism which is more of a philosophy than a religion ,i don't.
pawian 180 | 17,035
27 Oct 2011 #88
A fundamental question to all cross defenders:
What would you prefer: To have the cross completely removed or kept but accompanied by other symbols?

Now it is the best time to create a new custom: have all symbols put together. The number of Catholics in Poland diminishes every decade by 10% and it is a fact. One day there wil be too few to defend the cross and it will be ceremoniously and legally taken down in state institutions. Do you really want it?

It would be more difficult, I suppose, if other symbols accompanied it.

It is just one little concession. Come on.

If not, the discussion will go on endlessly, leading to ferment and eventual removal of the cross by lay majority in 10-20 years` time.

In Szczecin all symbols hung together for a while only because fanatics removed them, letting the cross stay.

s
Olaf 6 | 956
27 Oct 2011 #89
This is where Protestantism fares much better than Catholicism IMHO.

Yes, they both are on the same slope, only different angles, so to say ;)

Was Jesus a martyr or not?

Same like countless and victims of religions. Therefore a cross belongs somewhere else than parliament in my opinion.

And do we know a Religion which treats women well or at least normally?

Good point. I can't find one either. Oh, wait! Pastafarianism. ;)
If you're into meat balls...

the discussion will go on endlessly, leading to ferment

That's what religions or actually some people acting in the name of some religous purposes (initiatives like hanging the cross secretly) are best: creating unnecessary fuss and dividing people. There wouldn't be a debate here and everywhere if the cross hadn't been hung there.

In Szczecin all symbols hung together for a while only because fanatics removed them, letting the cross stay.

That's what I mean! Removing other symbols but leaving ours! How ignorant and selfish one has to be to do that?
Ironside 51 | 11,510
27 Oct 2011 #90
and dividing people.

Yeah, sure, as if people would have been united otherwise.....


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