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Prevention of child abduction by Polish mother.


FlaglessPole 4 | 669
8 Apr 2012 #181
Now who could argue with that? lol

No one, except that this should have been posted in 'UK could allow same sex marriages' thread.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
8 Apr 2012 #182
All pretty cheap low shots

She did say she hoped the best for you, Zimmy is riling her up,

Truth is there is only your side, you seem like you want to do the right thing, which is commendable, so hopefully
everything works out for the best for the baby,
jasondmzk
9 Apr 2012 #183
The OP in question came on here in hope to have his "I'm a good guy" routine validated. When it didn't go his way, he turned to abuse while simultaneously claiming he was being abused. His girlfriend run but he does not want to reveal why. He says he's willing to support his child but does not. Those are the facts we have here, right?

Right.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
9 Apr 2012 #184
oops, yep, that was ant, but Zimmy is riling her up.

I am kinda on the fence, I read back some of it, still dont make sense to me why he would not get blood tests

to make sure, especially since she didnt name him on the birth cert.. was she unsure? most of the time we
are on here giving advice for the guys who are going to get child support slapped on them ( those who leave
for Poland and get the courts to order the men to pay) , its weird to not want anything, or not want this child
to have the fathers name when she is or comes from supposedly catholic background.

yeah, still on the fence.. how can her passport be revoked when he isnt named on the birth cert to begin with?

why dont you just ask her for DNA testing so you can know for sure, either way at least you know the truth and
you can then make your plans, what if this child isnt yours and she does leave for Poland and still charges you
once she is there with child support? wouldnt that be the icing on the cake.

Maybe F stop has points , because it is a little strange to me to why she would just up and run and not want any help

when babies require alot of care.. to not want anything, maybe its your last ditch effort to keep her somewhere she
dont want to be.. we dont know you from adam, so there is alot of things this story could be, you getting angry with
f-top about it, when truth is, you cant really expect us all to trust you not fully knowing your ex's side of the story.

we will try to help, but if theres a decrepancy in your posts, and you want help, in a public forum, we try to be helpful

but you have to know your going to get alot of answers, not everyone you will like.
f stop 25 | 2,513
9 Apr 2012 #185
^ What Patricja said!
I always assume that people know what I'm talking about, or where I'm going with it. It's a social phonomenon called "illusion of transparency". ;)

Especially true on the internet, which is devoid of normal, non-verbal clues. So it's disconcerning when my meaning is missed, but when others insists that they know better what my meaning was, well, that's just not true.

One of my true aspirations is to strave to look at any dillema from every conceivable angle, and go with them until most of them can be eliminated to my satisfaction. This is one of the reasons that I'm valued at my work, in a field where being "positive" is practically a dirty word. Worst case analysis, always. It's a curse, but also a life-saver.

Close to the beginning of this exchange, a portentous idea occured to me; that the OP might be an abuser. I was looking for clasic signs: minimizing (the pain they cause), denying (that they caused the pain) and blaming (the victim). Why did she run? OP was not going there at all. Most I got was him loosing his cool and calling me names. He could have said a lot of things that would make the situation more real, like they had a huge fight, or he lost the girls trust, whatever... sometimes guys really have no clue, but I didn't think that was the case here. That was a big hole, and it makes one wonder.

Also, one of the most valuable advice I tried to give him was to send support in good faith. He just insists that he wants to have some control in his child's life and that is most important to him, and we all know all the shtty things that have been done in the "all I want what's best for the child" name. That's just not enough.

As sad as it is to admit, before help and support is offered, I think it's important to consider that sometimes, just sometimes, there are very legitimate reasons why a child and a parent should not be reunited.

So those are the reasons that prevent me from putting him squarely in a category of luckless fathers who get screwed by the system.
Seriously, do I really have this "dellusion of tranparency", or you knew what I meant all along?
Ant63 13 | 410
9 Apr 2012 #186
that's when you loose credibility

Again and again you lose your credibility.

Changing you name and starting fresh is not that easy in real life.

Where does changing your name come into it? Hopping back to the mother land is as simple as getting on a plane. It's hardly starting fresh is it? Family and friends to look after your interests and support your lies and deciet. You know lieing is quite popular in Poland.

Obviously you have never enjoyed a good dose of reality in your life!

I guess you think the scenario I described earlier was mine. No, it was one that I drew from the 100+ reported cases from the UK each year that involve Polish citizens. Don't tarnish me with your lies and feminist propoganda.

Maybe your the sort that would run because it suited you?
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
9 Apr 2012 #187
Dear f stop

I do not appreciate to be called an abuser! Who are you and who gives you the right to pass a judgement which is so untrue and slanderous?! Even more important how can you be so cold and calculative when saying that there are legitimate reasons for child and parent not to be reunited!! Are you the one and Almighty who knows it all ?! You keep asking what was the reason that my ex partner ran? Why do you assume she RAN and not just left as she got out of me what she wanted?! You saying I give no reason as to why she left…I do not give it because to be absolutely honest I have no clue as to why she acted the way she did. All I have are various hypothesises which in fact could be totally incorrect! I tend to deal in facts, not assumptions, wild guesses or extrapolating things from thin air!

I came to this forum to seek advice as found myself in a situation which is far beyond my comprehension and yet the first thing I encounter was abuse and slander from the very first post. You started by being all understanding and then just told me:

f stop: You are so full of sht. Put your money where your mouth is an start supporting your child instead of trying to figure out how to control her

Then you wonder why you get called an aggressive idiot. You crossed the line by being abusive, calling me a liar and saying I was controlling. You were simply being rude and don’t like it when you get called on that! You attempt to dress up your abuse as some sort of test is laughable and where I come from in the UK that is just being vulgar! There was nothing about Barney’s reference to cheque system being abused or indeed the fact that my solicitor had told me not to send cheques. You of course know better. My solicitor who is female and specialises in meditative family law of course knows nothing! There are other issues here surrounding what is going on, but I have deliberately concentrated on the main points as this forum is anonymous. Otherwise, I would see you in court with a couple women that I have dated in the past and I‘m still very good friends with, as my witnesses at your slander trial. To say that you have looked at everything from every possible angle is quite laughable. Do you realise that there is an increase in women who want to be single mothers in Poland and reject the fathers from being in their lives . This is just one example, but there are others. However, it is easier to go back to your own personal favourite of it being simply the man’s fault.

To say you thought the OP might be an abuser, as they minimises the pain that they have caused, denying they caused pain, and blaming the victim. I have discussed what happened in my relationship with my friends before coming to this forum, and have given them every detail. I will not share these details with you as this is a public forum and do not want to mention the mother’s name or the child’s. I have done things wrong in relationships, but who hasn’t. Still, I have never blamed my ex here. I came here to get general advise not be abused by people who once read a book on Psychoanalysis and think they know it all. If I was in your position I wouldn’t have started by being abusive I would have asked more questions and respected a person’s right to a degree of privacy, but I guess there is nothing like shooting from the hip, is there! You might not hit the target as you clearly haven’t, but what’s the difference if you can force everything into your own preconceived ideas.

I never insisted that I want to have some control in my child’s life, but thinking about it what is wrong with that, if I want my child to be brought up correctly. So you are telling me that I should not be with my child based on very limited information.

So in conclusion please take you amateur psychoanalysis elsewhere as you seem to have taken 2+2, and come up with a Billon! If ever I knew your name after you having called me an abuser I would happily sue you in court for liable and take you for everything you have. This is because I have absolutely nothing to hide! I no longer seek any advice on this forum, but now merely come here to defend myself against people who make up slanderous statements upon very little information.

Just for information please let me know when you are going to attempt to slander me again via email, rather than just trying to stab an honest man in the back like a coward.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
9 Apr 2012 #188
that the OP might be an abuser

she said * MIGHT* not you *ARE*

your taking things way overboard, understandable your upset, alot has happened, She is on your Ex's side of the fence and
you dont like that. I am good at helping others, but I cant even begin because your posts are really angry.

( not at me though) but reading, I think you left some things out.. because most couples who part, at least discuss
what went wrong, they might not talk for a little while, but they do some communication and most of the time even if its
angry communication, its said out loud in a harsh fight or in a pleading manner, why and what went wrong and if they
cant get along they part.. not always on good terms.

you still didnt even say whether you would get blood tests, why would you not even want to know if this was
your child for certain? you kinda bounced around that subject, if I am wrong I apologize I dont really intend to add more
anguish to your heart, but I dont feel there is enough said to really know how to help.

of course you dont need to say. we dont need names of people, buy why would you not make sure, maybe she does not
want you to pay because its not yours.

why all of the sudden does a person just up and leave? not giving you answers, not wanting you to pay? not wanting
you on the birth cert?

do you see why some of us QUESTION? I dont give trust to everyone, it has to be earned.

Ps.. you keep saying she called you an abuser, but by you accusing her of it when in fact she said might.
and then you want her to email you *PROVOCATION* which I am not a lawyer, but that does seem a little odd that you want

someone who was *Supposedly Calling you names Email you privately.

NOT GOOD SIR NOT GOOD..
Ant63 13 | 410
9 Apr 2012 #189
why all of the sudden does a person just up and leave? not giving you answers, not wanting you to pay? not wanting
you on the birth cert?

Because, damn it they just do it for a reason that is beyond reasonable thought. Who knows what goes through peoples minds sometimes. Who knows who gets into peoples minds sometimes. Jealous mothers often have a lot to answer for.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
9 Apr 2012 #190
how do you figure in Jealous?

and why do you keep answering for anglik1?

they do it for a reason beyond reasonable thought <~tells me that its just better to beat around the bush then get
to the nitty gritty. right?

what is beyond reasonable thought? was there adultry? are they married? did she want to Marry and he pushed
her away? did she go to poland and realize she was homesick and just cant stay in the UK anymore WHAT?? WHAT???

Half the time the beating around the bush leads people to make thier own conclusion of the situation..
which is what is happening in this thread.. do you know this man ANT63???? do you know his EX???
cause if you dont, then please let him answer his own posts and let him be the man to step up. OK
Ant63 13 | 410
9 Apr 2012 #191
do you know this man ANT63?

No, and I don't know his partner.

The guy asked a simple question about preventing child abduction to Poland and he is attacked by feminists, spouting claptrap, casting aspurtions, and trying to find out information that has no bearing on the question asked. How did he know he was entering the lions den of social pariahs and sick people with a chip on their shoulder.

Both you and f-stop would make good judges in Poland.

I'm not answering any questions for Anglik, I am just commenting on your, f-stops and polishmommas dubious behaviour toward him. Why don't you just answer his original question, if you can? I doubt you could as you seem to be completely blinkered to the reality of life, or you are taking the Polish stance and as it doesn't affect you directly, why should you help.

I tried to explain a situation similar to Angliks and anyone else in a parental abduction case in an earlier post. I tried to show it from a womens perspective so perhaps you and f-stop would maybe understand better how heart wrenching parental abduction can be. And thats only for the parents. What about the children?

As for jealous mother in laws, I have personal experience of one of them. Mine told her daughter that her father was dying and she wouldn't let her see him unless she left me. She missed her ironing slave so badly. The mother in law lost that one badly, it still didn't stop her for the next 17 years and funnily enough the father in law is still fighting fit. See, some women are real evil bi*****.
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
9 Apr 2012 #192
Hi Patrycja

f stop: that the OP might be an abuser

she said * MIGHT* not you *ARE*

There is such a thing as casting an air of suspicion which this f stop poster seems to do on a very regular basis without any fact!

I was looking for clasic signs: minimizing (the pain they cause), denying (that they caused the pain) and blaming (the victim).

So f stop is hiding behind this and

"illusion of transparency". ;)

So being psycho analysed, by someone who knows nothing, but hides behind this 'illusion of transparency'

your taking things way overboard, understandable your upset, alot has happened, She is on your Ex's side of the fence and
you dont like that. I am good at helping others, but I cant even begin because your posts are really angry.

You tell someone they are full of sh1t and that they are controlling, and how would you take that? It is not suggested, implied, or anything else, but just stated. So maybe you have different standards to me, but I generally tell people maybe this is the problem, not that they are full of sh1t or controlling if I want them to respond to me in a nice pleasant manner. My posts are purely defensive, as I have thanked people here who have been kind enough to suggest things, but when people start continuously casting doubts about my character I take that as offensive! This is why I won't use this forum for anything else than defending my character!

As for the DNA test I know that the child is mine and my ex's. I totally understand why you want to ask more questions, but this is solely about protecting the child and making sure that she has the right to have a 'Good Father' in her life, before anyone suggests anything else! There is a line that I don't want to cross in this post, as you can make up your own mind about me and my ex. However, just please try to assume that I am a good father she is a good mother and that communication has broken down. If it makes it easier on the communication front let's say neither side is at fault. Let us deal with the issue at hand a child having contact with both parents who are no longer together.

The reason I asked her to email me is so I can answer any questions that I consider slanderous directly and without delay. That is because I will not put up with someone trying to sneak anything in behind my back!

As for ANT63 he is attempting to defend me and speak up for himself in defence of what seems to be a highly slanderous onslaught by certain posters that is biased and deliberately provocative in making any right thinking man defend his integrity!

However, Patrycja I really appreciate your kind words and your understanding but my perceptions of this forum have been very badly jaded by the abuse I have received here and all the negative comments. I'm trying to be a good father and that's why I'm asking this question. It is very easy to be nasty to someone but incredibly difficult to tread the right line in trying to do the best thing for your child
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
9 Apr 2012 #193
on your

what behavior? you sterotyping me just because I am a woman and asking questions on the forum so you put me in the
same classification even though have been completely reasonable in my posts. hmmmmmmmm.

he is attacked by feminists,

who?

I dont see any proclaimed in the thread.. just regular women and men posting in a thread..

Both you and f-stop would make good judges in Poland.

I didnt call anyone names, I am trying to make sense of it, and so far you keep posting for him, are you his Polish forum

lawyer now?

Why don't you just answer his original question, if you can? I doubt you could as you seem to be completely blinkered to the reality of life, or you are taking the Polish stance and as it doesn't affect you directly, why should you help.

I have been trying to help, can you let him post for himself? I been asking questions go back and read , and for god sake let

him answer and stop your ranting, your acting like its your life.. no one is asking you the questions !

I tried to explain a situation similar to Angliks and anyone else in a parental abduction case in an earlier post. I tried to show it from a womens perspective so perhaps you and f-stop would maybe understand better how heart wrenching parental abduction can be. And thats only for the parents. What about the children?

how can you explain from a womens perspective on one case? and its not your perspective we want to hear, everyones situation can
be different, if you dont know him how can your situation even be remotely close to his, hes not even married.
and again, he was the OP who should have answered his own posts, his own questions, its not your situation I am interested in
nor is it part of this thread , If I want to know about yours I would have asked.. dont tell me I dont know anything about reality

when you dont even know me and clearly make ass-umptions based on your own experience calling people fems when you dont
know anything about them if they have children.

all of us have children and couldnt imagine one minute without them, life would end, but you seem to know each of us individually
* maybe you have a crystal ball or something* my children are my life .

its unfortunate that you had such a hard time, I love my mother in law , wouldnt trade her for the world,

sometimes you have to compromise to come to a happy ending, because fighting doesnt solve anything,

Patrycja I really appreciate your kind words and your understanding

Thank you for appreciating :)

ok, I just want to ask, because you said that she cant leave now, who is helping her if she is not able to leave and you

were advised to not help/give any money at this time * that is what I read right?

I think you * as a good father* should at least go get some diapers or baby food to help out, its hard to pay for all these

things on your own. I dont think your not a good Father, I dont really know you, but from your posts, its getting more clear

theres alot of confusion, prob lots of answers you need.. sometimes when we have children, we go thru a period of postpartum
where we just dont even know ourselfs.. its weird.. I can say one thing, it takes at least a year to feel good again, to feel like

yourself.

she is prob feeling like she needs her mothers help at this point, I so love my mother for helping me, i didnt know how

hard it would be, she was so much help, my mother is gone, I miss her dearly, I cry all the time, cause even now i have

situations that require a mothers advice.. and you know how much you love your mother, prob as much, and all i can say is
to me this is what I think it sounds like from the post you explained, because she doesnt have any answers either.. lawyers
or psycologist wont make it better.. she needs rest and her body needs to heal.. and if you helped her *ALOT* then she
should be understanding to your side. you two need to talk, I mean really sit and just tell each other what/and why and or just

tell her you are sorry and you can try again.

see I only say that cause I dont know how far along your break up is, I am used to people pouring their hearts out and

responding to it.. you are very reserved.. thats good and bad.. because you need to open up a little more too.
its ok to love because you will love all your life , it doesnt go away as some think, your always loved by your family, your friends

it just feels like love is gone cause you poured it all into one soul intead of spreading it out.

:)
Ant63 13 | 410
9 Apr 2012 #194
just regular women and men posting in a thread

Really. I think if we were regular we wouldn't be posting here :) We wouldn't need too.

As far as mother in laws go, I'm a man, so I deal with them in a fair but firm manner. I wouldn't allow that kind of wedge to get a grip on my relationship now or before.

I'm sure you love your kids dearly as do most men. Sometimes women forget this. It's a fact.

I personally am not taking sides. I can't as there is not enough information and secondly one should not take sides with the adults but with the children, which is exactly why my children and your children belong to "The State" and not to us. Should either of us fail in our commitment to our children then it is for "The State" to decide what the best course of action is regarding our children. Of course this is a worst case scenario as we are adults and we should be able to organise are childrens futures between us. In Anglik1's case there has been an inability for two parents to find a solution to a childs future and there is an added complication of one partner wishing to leave the UK. Nobody thinks about the consequences of what might happen if a relationship should break down and unfortunately even fewer realise they are committing a criminal offense by moving a child from the country of its habitual residence to, possibly the country of the birth mother or father.

This happens all the time and thank goodness we have devices like the Hague to bring parents back to the table or courtroom to resolve these problems. Heres a recent report on a similar situation.

.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17517657

Peace woman Peace
ZIMMY 6 | 1,602
9 Apr 2012 #195
This child is gone. Next one do right

So if you had a child and that child was 'kidnapped' and taken out of your country you would just tell yourself "that child is gone" and leave it at that.....right? (somehow I don't think so)

yep, that was ant, but Zimmy is riling her up.

Are you suggesting that women just can't control their innately biased emotions? Quite the stereotype eh?

she said * MIGHT* not you *ARE*

That is still an insult. Tossing out the possibility (without substantiation) is hurtful. It casts a negative aspersion on innocent individuals. It reflects the societal overview so common yet unfair in our cultures which is why I made such a big point when casting my "wide net". Many women have been reflexively trained to blame the man because that is how they have been brought up and that is how so many 'womens magazines' write their articles.

I previously brought up something I've witnessed at a book club session. The group of women were judging a kidnapping of a child by the male spouse as something heinous. Not a half hour later these same women were aghast when I noted that a certain woman took her kid to another state without her husbands knowledge. They immediately looked into every nook and cranny as to why she did that. They found excuses for her - maybe he was abusive; maybe he deserved it in some manner, etc. No such possibilities were afforded the male perp.

They cannot look at the mirror, and that's how it is.
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
9 Apr 2012 #196
Hi Patrycja

ok, I just want to ask, because you said that she cant leave now, who is helping her if she is not able to leave and you
were advised to not help/give any money at this time * that is what I read right?

A court order is enforce that prevents the mother from removing the child to Poland until all legal issues are resolved. She wants money, then doesn't, then wants money, then doesn't, all on her terms at the moment. Confused, well so am I.

I think you * as a good father* should at least go get some diapers or baby food to help out, its hard to pay for all these
things on your own.

Who say's I haven't done that. I don't want to go into too much detail, but I have tried various means. I don't want to go into too much detail about my situation as if she came to this form she maybe very hurt that I am discussing it in public if she could identify herself. I don't want to hurt her sensibilities, so have kept everything deliberately vague. I am in a situation that I don't understand, and my friends don't understand, so have come to this forum for general advice. I understand a bit about postnatal depression from other people's experiences, but other people suffer from depression and I have known some of these people. So as contentious as this may sound that does not excuse peoples actions, although I agree people may suffer from extreme cases which should be pitied more than they are vilified.

and if you helped her *ALOT* then she

I agree, but if that help is refused there is nothing that you can do. Sometimes I am worried that this maybe a lifestyle decision for some, not necessarily my ex though. Also it could be second thoughts about me as a partner, or it could be the maternal time bomb exploding and I was there.

[quote=Patrycja19]you two need to talk, I mean really sit and just tell each other what/and why

should be understanding to your side.[/quote]

Some people just don't want to talk, they just think they know best. I would sit down and discuss things for the sake of my child, but I can't force the other party to if their mind is made up.

you are very reserved.

Sorry British, that's why it has been difficult to post here. I just want to understand, but initially protect my child, then attempt to make things 'workable' between my ex and myself so that the child can have a happy childhood knowing both parents love them.

I hope you understand my motivations for posting on this forum a little better, and that I am trying to do the best for my child. However, I don't want to discuss anything further on this forum as everything I say seems to be treated with cynicism, attempts to criticise me, or just plain slander. Please do not take this as a reflection upon you that I don't want to discuss things here, but some of the posters here should really look within themselves and question what their motives are.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
9 Apr 2012 #197
Are you suggesting that women just can't control their innately biased emotions?

nope I suggest that its a gift you have and based on your history have had it for a long time.you rile men and women

up in here that is of your own doing.

That is still an insult. Tossing out the possibility (without substantiation) is hurtful.

I never said it wasnt hurtful, but because you only read what you want to read if you read her posts, she was
trying to find more clues to why.. you make alot of assumptions based on your posts about women , you pretty
much chew off your nose to spite your face cause everything you say sterotypes women.

your really not a good role model for the men in here. your advice stinks, your a broken man, retailiating against all
women and thats not how to be. people argue yes, but the bottom line is, no man should be over his wife and no woman

should be over her husband.. what really should happen is to walk beside each other.. and I dont expect you zimmy to
understand this because your beyond understanding how it works, you only think in one direction.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,602
9 Apr 2012 #198
...that its a gift you have and based on your history have had it for a long time.you rile men and women

That ship has left the port long ago, thanks to the misandry inherent in feminism.

she was trying to find more clues to why..

I noted that in my previous post. Women try to find out what motivates a woman to do an unjust act. They are less thoughtful about what motivates a man. and rarely ask "why". It's proved in these forums all the time.

your really not a good role model for the men in here. your advice stinks

LOL, thanks for the chuckle.

your a broken man, retailiating against all women

".....against all women"? Many women in my life would consider that comment laughable. As you know, it's the feminists and their fellow travelers that are (my) culprits.

you only think in one direction.

I present what I call 'fuller facts'; those that are ignored because of inconvenience and "political correctness". Like many women, you prefer your bias to objective facts.

Real women do not fear real equality!
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
9 Apr 2012 #199
Really. I think if we were regular we wouldn't be posting here :)

ahhhhh you wanted to say Normal ;) lol

if a relationship should break down and unfortunatley even fewer realise they are committing a criminal offence by moving a child from the country of its habitual residence to, possibly the country of the birth mother or father.

that is so true, I think that there is no education or prevention or remedy to help this though.. because if you care enough
about someone you will take that chance fully knowing that things could change, we just have to put our best foot forward
and hope things work out, but people do change.

I hope you understand my motivations for posting on this forum a little better

I do, so I hope for the best.. I wont keep asking. its personal and thats how it should stay.
f stop 25 | 2,513
10 Apr 2012 #200
Dear Lord, that dude just loves the attention, but sure as hell doesn't pay any.
Anyway, TL;DR.. ;), at a glance he seems to be saying same things over and over, no surprises there.
Patrycja, voice of reason, thanks! ;)
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
10 Apr 2012 #201
If you're talking about me, Ant63 or Zimmy can you be more specific so we can say what we think of your twisted warped opinion! I don't think any of us are prepared to take your nonsense!
f stop 25 | 2,513
10 Apr 2012 #202
lol. who do you think? again, nothing new, you're still clueless...
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
10 Apr 2012 #203
f stop

who do you think?

I don't know because you don't seem to have the courage to say!

You are just reverting to base insults, you are not an intelligent poster, merely a troll with an agenda.

You will never understand and you will never win an argument for exactly the same reason.
f stop 25 | 2,513
10 Apr 2012 #204
and you will never win an argument

LOL
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
10 Apr 2012 #205
Is that honestly the best you can do!

LMAO!
pgtx 30 | 3,156
10 Apr 2012 #206
Get back to the original topic.
natasia 3 | 368
10 Apr 2012 #207
OK ... the first thing you have to do is: forget ALL of your (our) English understanding of children's rights, rights of the father, right of the child to have contact with the father, the father's family (grandparents, for example), etc. etc. etc.

This is a different ball game now, and I think what you probably really need from this site is some setting out of the rules so you know at least what game you are trying to play. (I know: English response: 'But it is not a game ... I want to be utterly fair ... this is my child's life ... but I also respect the mother's right to a happy life ... I just want my child to have access to the loving support of both sides of her family ...' - FORGET IT - that will not wash here - that will just been seen as weakness on your part ... more of which later.)

It is a different ball game, and frankly it is hard-ball now.

Point no. 1: Poland is a matriarchal society. Don't even think of underestimating what that means.

Point no. 2: Following on, what the lady wants, the lady either gets the easy way, or the hard way, but she ALWAYS gets it. (trust me ... I have been an undercover anthropologist surviving on berries in this Polish-English jungle for some years now ...)

3: Do not even begin to expect any kind of decency, or 'normal' reactions from your Polish baby-mama. I can tell you now what she is saying and planning:

- You are either a waste of space, or a bastard, or both. She may elaborate on this with tales of beating, etc. - I don't know - maybe you ARE a bastard - you haven't said why you aren't together - but I imagine it was more along the lines of you loved her, she appeared to love you, she had the baby, she ditched you for no solid reason ...

- The only sensible thing that a self-respecting mother could do would be to make her own way in life.
- She doesn't want or need your help, thank you very much. She has a lovely baby, and her life planned out. Back to Poland. Back to her family. A new guy (or an old one resurfaced.) No you. Ever.

The clans will gather around her. Beaux will surface (if one hasn't already - I very much doubt she sleeps alone). The baby will be at the heart of the family. Her new accessory. She will parade proudly and show off her mothering skills. Everyone will say what a beautiful baby. Nobody will EVER mention you, apart from when she signals the ok to lay into you - in which case, you will be reviled for one reason or another, and the great sensibleness of having got rid of you be vaunted.

4. Nobody will EVER even suggest, let alone think, that the baby lacks anything in its life by not having you there. The baby came from the woman. It is her possession. In her arms. You are entirely superfluous to requirements now.

I am really sorry to say all this. It is so hard for us to understand and accept. And of course, you don't and shouldn't accept it, and you must challenge it and must use all the rigours of the law to make sure that you have a place in your child's life. You sound a decent guy, and I am sure you will be sensitive to the child's happiness, and not forcing the issue ... but if you honestly haven't done anything horrible or antisocial to cause the break up, and it's just that she doesn't want you, then of course she has no right to speak for your child as well.

It sounds like you are doing the best thing. And I think the sanest way to go about it is to try not to engage emotionally (well, obviously very hard not to, but you will achieve more, and lose less years off your life, if you try to focus and be calm - in the way, I am sure, she is being). You need to get the DNA test. You need to establish paternity, and have it on a piece of paper. You need then simply to go to court and apply for access to your child. You will get it, without doubt. If she goes to Poland, go as well. Get it through the courts in Poland. Do NOT let her take your child away from its father.

Of course, it's always better to agree out of court - but trust me, if the roles were even a tiny bit reversed, she would be down the court like lightning. She will have absolute conviction that she is in the right - remember that. That is why I say you can't even begin to engage with this emotionally, because you will be breathless with outrage before you've even started.

Plod calmly and unemotionally through the courts. It will cost. Time, money and stress. But you will get there. I really don't think she should be allowed to get away with this.

And be very careful that you don't do anything, or give anyone any information, that could be used against you. You can't really trust any mutual friends. They will swear blind not to tell, etc etc, and then will be texting her in the loo while still at your house. Trust me also on this. It is that bad.

My wider theory is that this and other behaviours have a significant root in the pressure of living in times of war. Neighbour sells neighbour. Everything is weighed up in terms of the bottom line. Action is decisive. There is no regret, and no conscience.

Very best of luck to you. This is why we have courts. Use them.

ps
Oh, and about niceness being weakness ...

The strongest wins. The strongest is the one who uses everything to their advantage, who hits below the belt without hesitancy, and who sleeps well at night, in the comfortable conviction of their absolute right.

You feel you should rise to the challenge, and be the best of yourself. The English way to do this is to be particularly understanding, fair, and forgiving. It is to give the benefit of the doubt. It is - and I am not a practiser of any religion, by the way - but it is a genuinely Christian approach.

This will be seen by her as laughable weakness, and an open invitation to trample even more firmly over your requests and propositions.

So don't be upset by that. It's just the way it is.
isthatu2 4 | 2,702
10 Apr 2012 #208
Do you realise that there is an increase in women who want to be single mothers in Poland and reject the fathers from being in their lives .

Of course,this has nothing to do with the fact that the child will now be supported by the British Tax Payer with full,first child,Child Benefits even if mum does go back to Polska B and shacks up with the stolen BMW driving petty crook she has probably been shagging since high school.....
ZIMMY 6 | 1,602
11 Apr 2012 #209
Child abduction by a parent is wrong, even evil. Women seem to 'feel' that it's less wrong when a woman does it. This thread has proven that unfortunate fact which is applicable to the general public as well. That's because we have a 'feeling' society and not a thinking one.

I've given the following example in another thread. It personifies how men and women are judged. The infamous Ann Landers printed 2 letters from her advice column. The first was from a woman who stated that her husband was cheating on her. Ms Landers' advice was that this woman should divorce her husband. The second letter was printed about 10 months later. It was from a man who stated that his wife was having an affair with another man. Ms Landers suggested that he talk things over with her and to forgive her.

So many women 'feel' that the above advice is correct even though it's an obvious double-standard. They do not see inconsistency because their center begins with gender bias. They are taught that in a variety of ways; gender courses, women's mags, women's organizations, and other entities like the domestic violence industry. It's a billion dollar business in the U.S. and is composed (of) and run by feminists who feed the media and politicians false stats.

Following on, what the lady wants, the lady either gets the easy way, or the hard way, but she ALWAYS gets it. (trust me ... I have been an undercover anthropologist surviving on berries in this Polish-English jungle for some years now ...)

An honest woman has spoken. I'm toasting you with a full glass of wine.

Nobody will EVER even suggest, let alone think, that the baby lacks anything in its life by not having you there. The baby came from the woman. It is her possession. In her arms. You are entirely superfluous to requirements now.

Isn't equality a wonderful thing, no wait........

Nobody will EVER even suggest, let alone think, that the baby lacks anything in its life by not having you there. The baby came from the woman. It is her possession. In her arms. You are entirely superfluous to requirements now.

Like I said; you are an honest woman. What a wonderful trait. Think I'll have a second glass of wine (and a cigar of course).

edit:

Of course,this has nothing to do with the fact that the child will now be supported by the British Tax Payer with full,first child,Child Benefits even if mum does go back to Polska B and shacks up with the stolen BMW driving petty crook she has probably been shagging since high school.....

....and that's another thing...........
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
11 Apr 2012 #210
Hi Natasia

Where do I begin... well I think a very very big thank you is involved! As soon as I read your post I could see parallels with what you were describing and what was happening. Just to double check I immediately texted a good Polish friend of mine in the UK who knows all about the situation (not connected to my ex) and asked for her comments and she said pretty much spot on.

Still thinking about the post and the implications of what you have said, but thank you so much for telling me what to expect. I will now try to sleep more soundly having the courage of my convictions.

Dziękuję bardzo!!!!!!!!!!!


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