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Unmarried couples in Poland = pathology


markskibniewski 3 | 200
28 Sep 2010 #91
The perceived modern failure of marriages is in fact, due to that quaint (and entirely liberal/modern) expectation that one marries for love, and not duty. The 'success' of marriages in the idealised past is inextricably linked to the notion that duty overrides all the other crap that a spouse would otherwise not put up with.

And I partly agree with you, if someone marries only for love than it will fail . Love is not eternal. It expands and contracts like a balloon. When it is full you can float above all the crap below you but withut a care in the world but when a little air seeps out things can look a little brighter looking somewhere else.

Duty and self sacrifice is an integral part of a succesful marriage.
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Sep 2010 #92
Dunno, I guess I'd rather just be happy in life. It's working out pretty well so far.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
28 Sep 2010 #93
I guess I'd rather just be happy in life.

There is a beautiful quote by Douglas Adams: 'I'd far rather be happy than right any day' :)
alexw68
28 Sep 2010 #94
Duty and self sacrifice is an integral part of a succesful marriage.

Agreed. They're necessary - but not sufficient. I see too many cases where duty is the sole justification for a marriage to continue, and that's unacceptable in modern times.

But what you say about self-sacrifice (not the same thing at all, it's more personal, less dictated by convention) strikes a chord with me. It got us (15 years and counting) through a rough patch a while back. Perspective (and a gorgeous 1-year-old boy, the apple of our eyes and all that) shows us what a huge waste it would have been to have thrown in the towel then. Now the love is fully restored, we're closer now than we've ever been.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
28 Sep 2010 #95
That's wonderful. Thanks for sharing. However, there is one point which interests me particularly:

My wife wouldn't have tolerated it.

So it wasn't religion or social stigma it was the lady herself.

Now, why should this only happen in a married couple? In an unmarried couple there can be a similar fear of retribution.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
28 Sep 2010 #96
But what you say about self-sacrifice (not the same thing at all, it's more personal, less dictated by convention) strikes a chord with me. It got us (15 years and counting) through a rough patch a while back. Perspective (and a gorgeous 1-year-old boy, the apple of our eyes and all that) shows us what a huge waste it would have been to have thrown in the towel then. Now the love is fully restored, we're closer now than we've ever been.

Nice. Think you would have thrown in the towel had you not had that 'piece of paper' saying you were married?

Now, why should this only happen in a married couple? In an unmarried couple there can be a similar fear of retribution.

I think without that piece of paper there is a lessened sense of duty and commitment.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
28 Sep 2010 #97
Avalon:
you can walk into a pub or restaurant and see older couples sat side by side and if you watch carefully, they hardly speak to each other. The relationship has become more of a "habit" than love. They have spent so many Years together that communication has almost become "telepathic", they know what and when each other want to eat or drink, they have totally different interests, but, they are scared of trying to form a new relationship and they still enjoy each others company. So the irritating habits that they have formed over the years are ignored, the woman is houseproud and the man is a slob.

Couldn't they be not speaking because they may be enjoying the food, further, I think it is a positive sign they are in there together rather than the misses off at bingo and a dirty old man at the go go bar. My wife and I have different interests but we still enjoy eachothers company. If any of you are single and hope to marry the perfect spouce better keep dreaming. They will have plenty of faults as will you that both of you will have to work through. That is the self sacrifice part of the marriage.
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Sep 2010 #98
Now, why should this only happen in a married couple? In an unmarried couple there can be a similar fear of retribution.

It's about respect for the other person in your life. My relationship has outlasted most marriages, through thick and thin. No need for a piece of paper. We have joint ownership of property, live together, have the same friends...we can't fall back on that piece of paper, we adjust ourselves to make things work because we want to be together. Good times.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
28 Sep 2010 #99
I think without that piece of paper there is a lessened sense of duty and commitment.

A woman scorned is scarier than a piece of paper!

It's about respect for the other person in your life. My relationship has outlasted most marriages, through thick and thin. No need for a piece of paper. We have joint ownership of property, live together, have the same friends...we can't fall back on that piece of paper, we adjust ourselves to make things work because we want to be together. Good times.

This is the point I would make. Some people do not need religion or social pressure to treat another person with respect.
alexw68
28 Sep 2010 #100
Nice. Think you would have thrown in the towel had you not had that 'piece of paper' saying you were married?

Very good question. I can only say that things weren't as bad as that - having different life goals at different times is a middle-class careerist luxury compared to what can and does happen in some marriages out there. Hence, the 'fix', though time consuming, has been quite complete.

I'm pro-marriage as an institution - my wife and I both come from parents in long-running, stable marriages (which is a fairly reliable predictor of how yours will turn out). But what any normative moralising statement of the kind we have seen in this thread (see OP) fails to do is consider the edge cases where there just is no hope. If the forces of morality and convention seek to prolong that kind of torture by throwing it in with the rest, then they lack the very compassion and moral sensitivity they would have us believe is at the core of their values.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
28 Sep 2010 #101
So it wasn't religion or social stigma it was the lady herself.

There is very little social or religious stigma associated with divorce today. Turn back the clock 50 years and there is a huge difference. I am not trying to say an unmarried couple can not have a successful relationship.. I just think it is much more difficult in todays social atmospere.

The answer I gave was based on the fact that we were in fact single. No strings attached. The fact we are married makes me strive to make it work even in the poor times.

People keep talking about about failed marriages. How many failed relationships have we all been in. I would venture to say there are a lot more failed relationships out there than marriages. Is this only because there is some economic deterance involved with getting divorced or is it people still try harder when they are married?
trener zolwia 1 | 939
28 Sep 2010 #102
People keep talking about about failed marriages. How many failed relationships have we all been in. I would venture to say there are a lot more failed relationships out there than marriages. Is this only because there is some economic deterance involved with getting divorced or is it people still try harder when they are married?

Excellent point. I feel this is a level of proof that actually being married acts as a deterrent to splitting up. To some degree anyway...
markskibniewski 3 | 200
28 Sep 2010 #103
Dunno, I guess I'd rather just be happy in life. It's working out pretty well so far.

Being married does not have to equate with being miserable. Congrats to both you and your partner. It is a pleasure to see another couple able to handle the pressures of anothers company for a long time married or unmarried.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
28 Sep 2010 #104
There is very little social or religious stigma associated with divorce today. Turn back the clock 50 years and there is a huge difference.

This really depends on where you are from.
I am from Ireland and divorce has only been legal since 1995 and that did not change the psyche of the people overnight.

were in fact single. No strings attached. The fact we are married makes me strive to make it work even in the poor times.

I'd go with that.

Is this only because there is some economic deterance involved with getting divorced or is it people still try harder when they are married?

I would think that it is people try harder to make it work.

An important aspect of marriage and divorce is to look at why people get a divorce.

I am a monogamist by default, I think most people aren't and infidelity, is one of the major reasons people get divorced. Anther reason is because of financial difficulties.

markskibniewski:
Duty and self sacrifice is an integral part of a succesful marriage.

Agreed. They're necessary - but not sufficient. I see too many cases where duty is the sole justification for a marriage to continue, and that's unacceptable in modern times.


If you are talking about, a young couple marrying only because they are going to have a baby, then I agree. Duty is not always enough.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
28 Sep 2010 #105
People keep talking about about failed marriages. How many failed relationships have we all been in. I would venture to say there are a lot more failed relationships out there than marriages. Is this only because there is some economic deterance involved with getting divorced or is it people still try harder when they are married?

But is that not a good thing? If they had married there would be more failed marriages.

Personally I think divorce is often too easy. I was stunned when, at a class reunion, I met an old friend and commented that our other friend had just got married. The reply, with no trace of irony or joking was, "Congratulations, first or second?"

I also think the days of pressure to get married early and for economic reasons allow more relationships to develop. True, they might break up but I also think this is better than more broken marriages. I think marriage is a serious commitment, not just to be taken for social staus.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
28 Sep 2010 #106
An important aspect of marriage and divorce is to look at why people get a divorce.

I am a monogamist by default, I think most people aren't and infidelity, is one of the major reasons people get divorced. Anther reason is because of financial difficulties.

In most religions infidelity is grounds for divorce anyway is it not?
pgtx 30 | 3,156
28 Sep 2010 #107
i don't think that divorce should be easy...
i also don't think that having kids should be available just to anyone...
a marriage doesn't guarantee a success as well as a divorce does not guarantee happiness...
trener zolwia 1 | 939
28 Sep 2010 #108
i also don't think that having kids should be available just to anyone...

Right. Like people already on the public dole...

You can't catch a fish here without having a license but you can have as many kids and let others pay to raise them as you want. Something wrong with this...
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Sep 2010 #109
You can't catch a fish here without having a license but you can have as many kids and let others pay to raise them as you want. Something wrong with this...

Absolutely. Why should someone without kids subsidize someone with kids. In complete agreement with you there. Public schools financed through property taxes, tax credits (form of subsidies), Medicaid... bin it all.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
28 Sep 2010 #110
alternatively, go to UK and claim chid benefit there.
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Sep 2010 #111
right...and then there are those cash breeding bonuses..
pgtx 30 | 3,156
28 Sep 2010 #112
Right. Like people already on the public dole...

i was thinking of child abuse and neglect, but that too...
markskibniewski 3 | 200
29 Sep 2010 #113
True, they might break up but I also think this is better than more broken marriages. I think marriage is a serious commitment, not just to be taken for social staus

This is true and I agree. Relationships should develop before jumping into marriage. All these couples that get married within 6 months while infatuated with eachother don't know squat about thier partner. But is moving in together and starting a family a viable alternative. I am on the fence about a couple having to live together with thier spouse prior to getting married. What can you learn from this that you can't learn from dating someone for ample time.?
f stop 25 | 2,513
29 Sep 2010 #114
If you are talking about, a young couple marrying only because they are going to have a baby,

So, really why do people get married?
*If it's tradition, pressure, love, reckless abandon... none of them seem to be good enough to even get a tatoo!
*If it's insurance, economics, sense of safety - all false, judging from divorce rates and lawyers raking it in.
*If you think you're going to be a better person because you signed that paper - that hardly ever works. It's not the same thing like paying a lot of money for the gym will make you go more often.

To me, marriage does not represent commitment - staying together whether you're married or not, does. Seems much more so when you're not married.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
29 Sep 2010 #115
In most religions infidelity is grounds for divorce anyway is it not?

My point was, if you are not a monogamist, you shouldn't get married even if you have no religion.
Unless you have an agreement with your partner but I would not count on that, as I couldn't see it working long term but hey!, that's just me.

*If it's tradition, pressure, love, reckless abandon... none of them seem to be good enough to even get a tatoo!

Tradition and love are not good enough to get tattoos?
Thank goodness I ain't got none then :)

*If it's insurance, economics, sense of safety - all false, judging from divorce rates and lawyers raking it in.

People who marry in to money are laughing at this.

*If you think you're going to be a better person because you signed that paper - that hardly ever works. It's not the same thing like paying a lot of money for the gym will make you go more often.

It depends on how you view it and I do not see marriage remotely similar to joining a gym.
But only time will tell, so far so good :)

To me, marriage does not represent commitment - staying together whether you're married or not, does. Seems much more so when you're not married.

Okay, I think we can agree that marriage does not mean happily ever after but... there's always a but... it is an agreed on commitment. Whether it works or not is up to you but at least it is something.
f stop 25 | 2,513
29 Sep 2010 #116
SeanBM
I think I know why most people get married: because they think they'll have better chance of staying together. And this would be very noble, if it didn't imply a certain amount of mistrust - either in a partner or their own abilities.

It's a seemingly small distinction, but means a lot to me and it's somewhat similar to this: do you not steal because it's against the law or because it's wrong?
trener zolwia 1 | 939
29 Sep 2010 #117
To me, marriage does not represent commitment - staying together whether you're married or not, does. Seems much more so when you're not married.

And science would tell you that you're wrong.
But then, we've already been over this...

I do not see marriage remotely similar to joining a gym.

Gym... stealing... Some people have a truly warped view of marriage. :s
f stop 25 | 2,513
29 Sep 2010 #118
trener zolwia
I still don't want to talk to you.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
29 Sep 2010 #119
I still don't want to talk to you.

Feelings still hurt?

Here's an AP article from today that say marriages in the US are at a 100 year low.
They seem to blame much of it on the present economy...
loco polaco 3 | 352
30 Sep 2010 #120
It should be much much harder to get into a marriage then it is. It should also be more costly. It would decrease divorce rate, for sure. Marriage shouldn't be for everybody.


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