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American marrying Polish woman in Poland - Church problems


coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #1
I am currently married to a Polish woman through a civil wedding in the US. We are planning a church wedding in Poland this summer and everything was planned and the church said OK, but now they say there is a problem because the catholic church wants a proof of my divorce from previous wife in church. It was minister that was methodist or non denominational, or even only civil, I don't recall it was 17 years ago. But here in US we do not have divorce through church when church is not catholic, it is only through court. So what can I do?
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
19 May 2011 #2
Get a relative of your wife's to speak discreetly to the priest. He will know what to do, but it will cost.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #3
I am confused, she is in Poland and she is talking directly to the priest herself. They told her at the beginning everything was ok, now they want this document that is not possible to produce.

Is this like a shakedown for money? It is funny I told her the same thing, how much $
Thanks for info, any additional info is appreciated
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
19 May 2011 #4
Is this like a shakedown for money?

That often happens

how much $

A few hundred
Harry
19 May 2011 #5
So what can I do?

Pay the bribe that is expected from you.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
19 May 2011 #6
But here in US we do not have divorce through church when church is not catholic, it is only through court. So what can I do?

Then you're still married according to Catholic law, you will not receive a wedding in Catholic order untill proof of divorce, ask your bishop for document.

Get a relative of your wife's to speak discreetly to the priest. He will know what to do, but it will cost.

Sorry thats not going to work here.

Is this like a shakedown for money? It is funny I told her the same thing, how much $

No its not, you actually hit a massive roadbump here and without proof of divorce you wont get married in church, money to the polish priest wont fix that, you have to obtain document from your local bishop or priest responsible, even methodist people have church divorces.

The priest in Poland is extrelemy unlikely to accept a bribe and if he consents to give you a wedding it can be annulled on the moments notice.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
19 May 2011 #7
Is this like a shakedown for money?

More like a tax on your past indiscretion and stupidity. You know - what God has joined in union let no man…………. and all that.

Let’s see, previously married and did not anticipate unforeseen difficulties? How gullible, church in Poland is not Vegas where you just walk into the chapel get married have your fun and divorce all in one night.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #8
I was not married in Catholic church previously, it was only a civil wedding I believe. So if it was civil how can I prove divorce in church?

We are already married through a civil wedding and she is moving here, I don't care about this wedding for myself, it is for here and her family. It is a pity they would do this to them
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
19 May 2011 #9
Get your facts straight. How can you not remember where you were married?

So if it was civil how can I prove divorce in church?

Even with a civil union you have the responsibility to produce all the paperwork as well as answering few questions to the priest satisfaction. Same in US if you wanted to get married in CC so why act surprised?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
19 May 2011 #10
If done by a priest in a church its not a civil wedding, i'm pretty sure you have papers for the wedding? If its civil its a none issue and the priest wants a bribe, if it was done by an actuall priest you're in some deep sh*t.

Get your facts straight. How can you not remember where you were married?

Because he's probably a fake troll account like most here or a rare case of a genuine retard.

Essentially got papers? If not thats your problem.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #11
I was married in an outdoors park by someone arranged by my previous wife. Here in US all is required is to be ordained which can not even have a connection to church

It was 17 years ago and I don't remember exact details, is that so hard to believe

And divorce takes place in court here, not church unless you are catholic I have divorce decree from court.

It was definitely not Catholic priest!

I am not a troll so a genuine retard I suppose. That's the thing I like about this forum, the people are so nice and polite
Stu 12 | 522
19 May 2011 #12
It was 17 years ago and I don't remember exact details, is that so hard to believe

I'm afraid it is ... ask anyone here who's ever been married. My first wedding was 14 years ago. And I remember it ... very well.

And divorce takes place in court here

Well, then you've got papers. Have them translated and you'll be fine. I had my divorce papers translated by my consulate. I got a signature and a stamp, handed them to the priest in Wojciechowice and he was happy.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #13
I did give them papers from the court, and at the beginning it was ok, now they say it is a problem they want something from the church, and it doesn't exist
Stu 12 | 522
19 May 2011 #14
But if you didn't marry in church the first time, then there shouldn't be any problem, now should there?

Unless of course you first told the priest that you had married in church and suddenly retract that statement. Then you shouldn't be surprised if some eyebrows are raised.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
19 May 2011 #15
[quote=Sokrates]The priest in Poland is extrelemy unlikely to accept a bribe [/quote
Really? Priests in Poland ask money for everything
Harry
19 May 2011 #16
Then you're still married according to Catholic law

According to Catholic law he has never been married. Which is why until Poland and the Vatican signed their famous Concorde, Poles needed to have a civil wedding and a Catholic wedding. Try thinking before you mouth off.

I did give them papers from the court, and at the beginning it was ok, now they say it is a problem they want something from the church, and it doesn't exist

Yes, but it is certain that the church roof needs repairing. Have you considered asking how you can make a donation to that fund?

Priests in Poland ask money for everything

Except the virginity of altar-boys.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #17
I told my wife this, that they want some donation, but she thinks of things in an ideal way and doesn't agree to it.

I just feel badly about it for her and her family after planning this wedding
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
19 May 2011 #18
Have you considered asking how you can make a donation to that fund?

Milking it for all its worth? The moron doesn’t have a clue as to what actually had happen at his own wedding, was it a religious ceremony or not as it was arranged by someone in the family of his previous wife. Perhaps it’s not the roof that needs fixing but as far as I’m aware there’s no cure for stupidity. You on the other hand have a choice of two pills, the blue one will set you free and the red one will let you live in eternal bliss.

Bunch of fvcken trolls.
Stu 12 | 522
19 May 2011 #19
Well, according to some Polish customs it is the groom who pays for the vodka, the rings and his suit. The rest is covered by the wife-to-be :D. So why should it bother you? If she doesn't want to pay for it, fine. Then you can say that you didn't object to the church wedding but that she didn't want to pay for it, so hey, it's not your fault ... :D:D.

But I can't see the problem of giving the priest some money. We donated 1.000PLN for the restauration of the church. Big deal ... . And he wants some money for himself as well. Nothing strange.

It's normal that they want some money for their work. They have to write a sermon, etc ... etc ... . Our priest did a damn fine job of it, doing the service in Polish and English. Super! No fuss, no problems, open to requests and suggestions, cracked a couple of jokes, etc ... .
Harry
19 May 2011 #20
was it a religious ceremony or not as it was arranged by someone in the family of his previous wife.

We know that it clearly was not a Catholic ceremony, which means that in the eyes of the Catholic church he has never been legally married.

I just feel badly about it for her and her family after planning this wedding

Just hire an actor and have the ceremony in the same place that you're holding the reception. Tell all her family that you're Opus Dei and that the actor is an Opus Dei secular priest and for that reason you can't use the local church but your beliefs tell you you must use an Opus Dei priest. Job done.
poland_
19 May 2011 #21
We are already married through a civil wedding and she is moving here, I don't care about this wedding for myself, it is for here and her family. It is a pity they would do this to them

The church is doing nothing wrong, the fact that you are divorced you would not be able to have a church wedding if you were a catholic. You need the legal document thats states you are divorced and a letter from the church that baptized you to confirm you are a ? and not married. You will be able to twist the priest in the USA, here in Poland rules are rules. Do you also have a catholic priest in PL who will conduct the service in English and Polish.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #22
I am not catholic, she told me it would be like a one way wedding in Poland where she is married in the eyes of the church and I was not. It sounds strange, but I was told they do something like this. The divorce decree from the court is all I have to show I am not married.

When I say "do this to them", I mean first they said this document from the court was acceptable and now it is not. That is all I meant. If from the beginning they said there is a problem and she did not make all of these plans I would understand
mafketis 21 | 7,448
19 May 2011 #23
I believe coppermouse. In the US there are lots of ways to get legally married and it's not that uncommon for the bride and/or groom to not know the personal performing the ceremony at all. The variety of people allowed to conduct civil wedding ceremonies is a lot longer than in Poland too. Notary Publics can marry people (at least in some states) in addition to some others.

Governments in the US only recognize civil marriages conducted in the US. Religious figures are among those allowed to perform divil marriages but they're only valid if the priest or minister or rabbi fills out the appropriate paperwork. Religious figures are not allowed to preside over divorces AFAIK and I've never heard of church based 'divorce' for anything but some catholics (and catholic church based divorces would not be recognized by the government).

To me, also American, coppermouse's confusion about who married him (beyond the fact that whoever did had to fill out the appropriate government paperwork) seems pretty normal.

I think the priest in question simply cannot fathom a different kind of system (just as some posters here can't) and his wife is having trouble finding the words that would make him understand that the previous wedding was not quite 'civil' in the Polish understanding or church based either and that he's asking for something that doesn't exist due to the difference in marriage customs.
kondzior 9 | 954
19 May 2011 #24
It can help if you are able to produce marriage certificate of your previous marriage. If it shows that it was not a Catholic ceremony, it shoud clear any obstacle.

A priest cannot conduct a ceremony for already married person. Regardles of money. It is too serious an issue. If his bishop would found out, he'd end up deep into the fecal matter. It would cost him more then you can possibly pay him.
OP coppermouse 16 | 62
19 May 2011 #25
Well It is nice to see someone understanding my situation and not calling me names. It is exactly as you state Mafketis,
I think I can produce a marriage certificate from our vital statistics bureau to show it was not catholic, if you think that would help, but there is no such thing as a divorce document from the church possible here if it is not Catholic. So I just trying to understand how to solve the problem.
Softsong 5 | 495
19 May 2011 #26
Hi Coopermouse, I understand your situation, too. I used to work in a photography studio and we often took wedding pictures of couples who married on the beach, in the park or just a reception hall with a notary republic or justice. Often, they did not know the person who married them, it was just a civic ceremony. So, naturally, there would be no religious divorce document to show the priest in Poland.

I hope showing him the civil record of the marriage and explaining again that the divorce papers you have are the only ones since you did not have a church wedding, Catholic or any other.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
19 May 2011 #27
When it comes to bribing a priest in Poland, your mileage will vary
However, it has been a fact for millenia that god likes money, and can never get enough of it.

If it shows that it was not a Catholic ceremony, it should clear any obstacle.

Methodists and RC have been in a dialogues since Vatican 2. The issues are doctrinal rather than legal.
If your wedding was through a Methodist church then to the RC is as good as their own, and without some serious (not just some lousy few hundred $$) grease it will be very, very difficult to push this through. Not impossible, but difficult.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
19 May 2011 #28
Impossible if his marriage is not annulled.

Assuming the thread author is just an unbelievable retard and not a troll here's a concrete answer.

1.Find out what kind of a priest/minister presided over the ceremony.
2.If it was purely civil provide documents to the polish catholic priest and you're good.
3. If you dont have documents pertaining the wedding it sucks to be you.
4. If it was a methodist wedding you have to obtain marriage annulment from the catholic court which in itself is difficult otherwise no amount of money will buy you a wedding, sorry but bribery wont work if you're married in the eyes of CC.

To me, also American, coppermouse's confusion about who married him (beyond the fact that whoever did had to fill out the appropriate government paperwork) seems pretty normal.

To be honest you guys are a nation of idiots but its still suprising sometimes.

Here's the news to you, Catholic faith has its own laws, decrees and customs, its not that we can't fathom your retarded way of life, its just that if you want to do the things Catholic way it means certain things will have to be done according to our customs and we're allergic to people with multiple wives unless they're muslims or some other kind of a hobo.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
19 May 2011 #29
Impossible if his marriage is not anulled.

Not impossible, even if you have no legal grounds for annulment, but you gotta either drop a nice green pile on the table, or be very close to a pointy hat. Or both.
mafketis 21 | 7,448
19 May 2011 #30
To be honest you guys are a nation of idiots but its still suprising sometimes.

My, aren't you a kind soul. And how very christian of you to phrase it just that way.

Did you even read the thread? He's not a catholic and doesn't care about the ceremony for himself. The whole married in church is for his wife (and redundant since they live in the US and are legally married there). It's something he wants to do for his wife (and her family). Not getting a church marriage in Poland will no effect whatsoever on their marital status in the US it will just be sad for his wife.

What I think might be going on: His wife used the word 'methodist' at some point to describe her husband and this makes the priest think that the first marriage must have involved the church.

Possible way out: There are a bunch of different branches of methodism. "Remember" that the methodism involved in this case (if it is in any way) is one that isn't in dialogue with the RC church....


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