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"Survivor's report" from a children's mass in Poland


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
26 Oct 2015  #31
worried about the state of religion in the country

You are apparently not one of them. Accept form religion what is nice, convenient and pleasant and makes everybody "feel good", gloss over problems and go your merry way. That attitude is by no means rare these days.
Atch 17 | 2,843
26 Oct 2015  #32
Accept form religion what is nice, convenient and pleasant and makes everybody "feel good"

That tired old accusation of yours........that kind of view may exist but it doesn't serve you very well in difficult times. There is a great deal of pain in life, though many of us are fortunate enough to suffer only the usual and not to experience real tragedy. But if you have such a simple-minded outlook on what Christianity is then how do you cope if you lose a child, for example? How do you make sense of it? No, Polly I don't subscribe to the views you suggest but I do try to understand the central message of Jesus and to live as He instructed us to do for His sake and for our own. You should read the writings of St Bernard of Clairvaux on the 'four loves' that Christianity teaches us.
johnny reb 17 | 3,652
26 Oct 2015  #33
he said: "Whose sins you remit are remitted and whose sins you retain are retained." (St John 20-23)

Pol may I ask you in what chapter of John are those verses found ?

1John is the only one that has more then 14 verses with 2John only having 13 and 3John only having 14 verses.
So that leads me to believe that you are quoting from 1John and in 1John only chapter 2 and 3 have more then 20 verses.
Please tell me which one you are referring to as I am totally confused in not finding any quotes of the such that Jesus himself made.

John has 21 chapters, maybe you are referring to one of those that you got those verses from.
I will have to take the time later to look as work is calling right now.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
26 Oct 2015  #34
htm

which one you are referring to

I'm not a big e-gadgetarian but I typed "whose sins you retain" (from memory) into Google and out came numerous translations of which the link below is one:

biblehub.com/commentaries/john/20-23

St Bernard

St Bernard was undoutbeldy one of the Church's profound thinkers but I'm sure he never rejected the Precepts of the Church. To refresh your memory here they are, calling your attention especially to No. III (Penance) and No. VI which rules out calling abominable liaisons marriage:

I. To attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and resting from servile works.

II. To observe the days of abstinence and fasting.

III. To confess our sins to a priest, at least once a year.

IV. To receive Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist at least once a year during Easter Season.

V. To contribute to the support of the Church.

VI. To obey the laws of the Church concerning Matrimony.

VII. To participate in the Church's mission of Evangelization of Souls.(Missionary Spirit of the Church)

P.S. NOTICE TO CAFÉ CAHOLICS: take your pick!
johnny reb 17 | 3,652
26 Oct 2015  #35
I'm not a big e-gadgetarian but I typed "whose sins you retain" (from memory)

From memory ?
So what you are saying is that you can not show me a chapter from John in the Bible where any verses 20-23 is says any such thing ?

The Bible also says that any man that teaches false scripture will be judged double. (from memory)
I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying that I could find any such verses on a quick look over.
If you are going to quote scripture you should be able to find it in the Bible to back it up.
I am just saying............
Harry
26 Oct 2015  #36
NOTICE TO CAFÉ CAHOLICS: take your pick!

Interesting way to describe the vast majority of Poles who claim to be Catholic.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
26 Oct 2015  #37
verses 20-23

I'll repeat the link:

biblehub.com/commentaries/john/20-23

biblehub.com/commentaries/john/20-23

Sorry, but somehow that link redirected. In my Polish New Testament I can see you should check out John 20 verses 19-23. After His Resurrection Jesus appeared to the Apostles and said: (My transaltion) "Take the Holy Spirit. Those whose sins you remit shall be remitted, and thos you retain shall be retained."

I'm sure you're a far better computer geek than I am so you should have no trouble seeing it in the web.
johnny reb 17 | 3,652
27 Oct 2015  #38
I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying that I could find any such verses on a quick look over.

Ah, chapter "20"......that's what I needed to find it.

he said: "Whose sins you remit are remitted and whose sins you retain are retained." (St John 20-23)

Yes sir and my Bible says the same.
"If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
You are totally correct Pol3.
As I said this morning.......

I will have to take the time later to look as work is calling right now.

I just got home from work and couldn't wait to research this.
Again Pol, you nailed it or as they say here on the PF, Spot on old chap, good job.
Atch 17 | 2,843
27 Oct 2015  #39
Again Pol, you nailed it or as they say here on the PF, Spot on old chap, good job.

Yes but Johnny, you are an evangelical Christian and as such also reject the sacrament of confession. You believe not only in a direct relationship with God but in Jesus as your personal saviour, who died on the cross that your sins might be forgiven. You've said yourself on this very forum that you don't need a Catholic priest to forgive your sins. But now you appear to be in agreement with Polly's interpretation of the Bible and that Jesus gave his disciples the 'power' to forgive sins. Could you clarify? Maybe in the off-topic section. What is it exactly that Polonius nailed???

Those whose sins you remit shall be remitted, and thos you retain shall be retained."

Catholic scripture intreprets that quote in the context of the fact that it was said to the Apostles as the first ministers of the Catholic church. But what if you're a Christian and not a Catholic? Does that mean that yours sins will not be forgiven even if you repent? Of course not. All of us as humans have the power to forgive those who sin either personally against us or against humankind in general or we have the power to harbour hatred, bitterness, anger and resentment. That's how I read those words.

I'm sure he never rejected the Precepts of the Church.

I never suggested that he did. My comment regarding St Bernard was about his teachings on Christian love.

NOTICE TO CAFÉ CAHOLICS: take your pick!

To which Cafe Catholics are you referring? Ones on this forum? I don't know of any Catholics here apart from the two of us. And Polly dear, despite your greatness which precedes you like a fanfare and follows you like a procession I don't think that the Catholics of the world are aware of your proclamations.
johnny reb 17 | 3,652
27 Oct 2015  #40
but well brotherly love does not mean we are supposed to be nice to everybody at all times - just saying

It says to give brotherly love to my Christian brothers and sisters, doesn't say I have to give love to non believers.

Yes but Johnny, you are an evangelical Christian and as such also reject the sacrament of confession

Not true, I confess and ask for forgiveness from God my Father, that's my personal sacrament of confession and not from an old man in a dress to instill guilt with twenty Holy Mary's.

What is it exactly that Polonius nailed???

Pol3 nailed quoting the scripture of John 3:20 exactly.
Why does this make you so nit picky that Pol3 is correct ?
Your turn will come tomorrow with a "atta girl".
Atch 17 | 2,843
28 Oct 2015  #41
Why does this make you so nit picky that Pol3 is correct ?

It's actually you that I was nit picking Johnny though I wasn't doing it to be awkward. I'm not bothered at all that he quoted scripture accurately. It's the intrepretation he places on it that interests me. He sees it as supporting the Catholic sacrament of going into a confessional and confessing to an old man in a dress as you refer to it. But you don't see it that way, so that's why I was interested to know what it was you felt he'd nailed.

Not true, I confess and ask for forgiveness from God my Father, that's my personal sacrament of confession

Now who's nit picking?! Splitting hairs Johnny old boy. You and Pol have opposing views about confession and that's the long and short of it. He believes he needs to confess to a priest, you don't - and neither do I, yet I still identify myself as a Catholic, it's a funny old world isn't it.

By the way I don't know why people go on about men in dresses. Very few priests wear a soutane nowadays, though I've noticed they still do in Poland and the nuns wear traditional habits as opposed to civvies.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #42
identify myself as a Catholic

There are cafeteria Catholics, self-styled Catholics, lapsed Catholics, trendier-than-thou Catholics and probably a few more varieties. Take your PICK!
The sin of pride is one of the worst. Everyone commits it, myself included. But I'm not so proud, arrogant and presumtpious as to reject the teaching of the Pope on the Sacrament of Penance (not confession). Not just Francis but all his predecessors as well.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
28 Oct 2015  #43
True too, Pol and the same applies to all religions. I have met quite a few "Jews" and "Muslims" eating pork (I don't), including Jews working, shopping on Saturdays and "Muslims" driking much more than I do .... We can find everthing among religious people...
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #44
find everthing among religious people

...and irreligious ones as well. The problem is that the loose and casual kind may regard those who try to adhere to their faith as fanatics, bigots or bible-thumpers. And, similarly the latter view the former as laid-back slobs and sluggards guitly of spiritual sloth. That's human nature, I reckon.

But each case is individual and there are reasons behind it. It could be upbringing or peer pressure or a myriad other possible factors. Most people lack the time and patience to thoroughly analyse each case, so we usually dismiss them with some glib stereotype. I'm as guilty fo that as anyone.

Et ne nous soumets pas à la tentation, mais délivre-nous du mal. Amen!
johnny reb 17 | 3,652
28 Oct 2015  #45
It's actually you that I was nit picking Johnny

Yeah you do go over board with "I am the teacher" junior authority bit. lol

so that's why I was interested to know what it was you felt he'd nailed.

Simple, I was referring to scripture, you were referring to something different.
Now that we have that sorted out does johnny get a star for effort Miss Atch.

Now who's nit picking?! Splitting hairs Johnny old boy

If giving my personal choice of how I ask for forgiveness is "nitpicking" and "splitting hairs" then I will have to stay after class.

I don't know why people go on about men in dresses.

You were the first one that coined that term here so you tell us.
School teachers are the best because if you do it wrong they make you do it over again. :-)
Atch 17 | 2,843
28 Oct 2015  #46
You were the first one that coined that term here so you tell us.

No, that wasn't me. Absolutely not. That term was used by someone called, I believe called Old British Bird (I think she was a guest poster). She used the phrase 'evil old man in a dress' and I asked her if she was referring to the pope or priests in general. I think Rozumiemnic has also used that term 'man in a dress' but I can't be absolutely certain. I don't regard priests as evil nor do I think of them as men in dresses so I would never use such a term.

Now that we have that sorted out does johnny get a star for effort Miss Atch.

No. I trained through the Montessori system, no incentives, no rewards. You might find this interesting:
examiner.com/article/rewards-montessori-classrooms-come-from-within-the-child
johnny reb 17 | 3,652
28 Oct 2015  #47
Yes, it is most interesting. Thank you.
Not like when I went to Catholic school and if you received Holy Communion before school you were allowed to devour a huge cinnamon roll with glazing on the top in front of the class while kids like me (were denied ANY food) had to walk very early in the morning to school in the dark in the snow waist deep three miles all up hill to get there in time generally missed mass in the morning and were starved after our walk to school OR when the kids who's parents donated the most in church on Sunday (all of which was recorded and published in the church bulletin for all to see) (another guilt tactic to get more money out of people) got preferential treatment in the classroom.

My how things have changed since I went to grade school. Good article Atch.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #48
Montessori system

Interesting! I had heard of Montessori but had never delved into the details. Since every man-made system is defective, let me ask you what is the down-side of Montessori education. Is it for every type of pupil or only those with a certain predisposition.
Atch 17 | 2,843
28 Oct 2015  #49
parents donated the most in church on Sunday (all of which was recorded and published in the church bulletin for all to see)

Yes that's a disgusting practice which I'm glad to say we never had in Ireland to my knowledge but which my husband tells me was the norm in Poland and may still be for all I know. He told me about a custom of sending round a statue of Our Lady I think it was, together with a list of all the households in the parish. The statue had to be kept in the house by each parishioner for a few days and then they had to make a donation and put the amount they were giving on the list. Imagine the shame some people felt at only having a small amount to give and the fact that they probably had to go without some item of food or something else essential.

There's a book you might enjoy Johnny called 'To School Through The Fields:An Irish Country Childhood' by Alice Taylor. Irish children in rural areas, like yourself walked many miles through the fields in all weathers to school in an unheated schoolhouse. Children were generally expected to bring a sod of turf for the fire and in some schools those who didn't do so were given the leather or the stick by a harsh schoolmaster.

every man-made system is defective, let me ask you what is the down-side of Montessori education

The only downside is when teachers don't understand the philosophy behind it and start to mess with it. If you follow the method correctly it works for everyone. The reason for that is because Montessori wasn't a theorist, she didn't come up with ideas based on how she thought children should behave or how they should learn. She observed thousands of children over her lifetime and designed her philosophy and her learning materials based on the childrens' natural behaviours.

every man-made system is defective

Yes it's a man-made system but divinely inspired. Dr Montessori was a deeply spiritual person. She was a devout Catholic but she respected all religions and spent six years in India. She had an experience similar to that of Froebel when he was returning from the Napoleonic wars when she encountered a mother and child begging in the streets of Rome and knew that her life must be dedicated to such children. She began her work with the deaf and mentally disabled. She then went on to bring her system to the street children of Rome in the first Montessori schools. She was nominated three times for the Nobel peace prize which not many people realise. Anyway she was a very special person.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #50
man-made system but divinely inspired

There must be some common wave-lengths between us (despite numerous differences) because I was going to add: Even the Church, although divinely inspired, is man-made and can manifest certain shortcomings.

Re differences: humankind? Typical PC newspeak promoted by their femi-fascist wing. It was, is and will always be mankind to all excpet PC-infected trendies.
johnny reb 17 | 3,652
28 Oct 2015  #51
The "survivor" thing is to be taken cum grano salis.

Now let's take a look at it through the children's eyes.
There is not enough time in the day to tell all the horror stories of my childhood Catholic churching.
It was mandatory that we attend church (mass) before school every day.
The children (7 years old and up) would come to church all bundled up in six layers to sit in a over heated church in hopes the priest for the morning didn't go crazy with the incense to smoke us out. It gave the most nauseating smell on a empty stomach plus sweating to death because we were not allowed to take our coats off in church.

Kids got sick and vomited in the church before school quite often from those conditions.
Then you got reprimanded for getting sick.
Is it really a wonder that I had a tad bit of rebellion with the nuns ?
Today those people would be jailed for child abuse without a doubt.
Talk about a "Survivors report" from a child's mass. Oh ja ja !
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #52
What about exceptionally fidgety and or unruly kids who disrupt class and bully weaker pupils or even accost the teacher? Have you ever personally experienced such encounters or observed them up close? What is the Montessori-approved manner of reacting thereto?
Atch 17 | 2,843
28 Oct 2015  #53
Every sensible person knows that the term 'man' simply refers to the human race and is entirely neutral.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #54
Every sensible person

I never said the femi-fascists were sensible. So: Ego te absolvo...because I doubt if you were consciously mouthing a buzzword of the PC Dictatorship. You simply went with the flow. When one hears something over and over it may unwittingly become second nature. I recall some of them condemning JP2 for saying "Man does not live by bread alone!" which they naturally genderised. The Polish is: Nie samym chlebem człowiek żyje! (człowiek = human).
Atch 17 | 2,843
28 Oct 2015  #55
What about exceptionally fidgety and or unruly kids

They are free to choose their own work so there's no fidgeting. They generally find something they want to do and settle to it. As for the unruly ones, they also find something to interest them and the work calms them. If a child can't settle I simply have the child sit with me. I I might say 'you're wandering around and annoying people, stopping them from doing their work which they don't like. Now if there's nothing you want to do I shall have to ask you to sit with me for a while as we can't have you disturbing busy people.' If I have time I might do an activity with them. If not they'll have to sit there and watch whatever I'm doing which they usually enjoy. Sometimes I might be giving a lesson to another child and the fidgety one will actually take a great interest it, just as an observer.

bully weaker pupils

That doesn't happen in Montessori schools.

accost the teacher?

Also doesn't happen.

Have you ever personally experienced such encounters

I have in mainstream schools but any teacher worth her salt puts a stop to that very swiftly. Any bullying in my class was always pretty mild, trivial stuff and I nipped it in the bud immediately. You have to be a very good observer of children and spot what's going on before it gets established.

It's hard to understand I know, but if you get the children into Montessori when they're three years old and you have three years with them until they're six, by the time they get to seven, they will not bully anyone or give trouble to a teacher. Of course I'm talking about proper Montessori schools not half-baked things that use the name and don't really practise the method

"The first idea that the child must acquire, in order to be actively disciplined, is that of the difference between good and evil; and the task of the educator lies in seeing that the child does not confound good with immobility, and evil with activity, as often happens in the case of the old-time discipline." Maria Montessori. Great woman Montessori.

I doubt if you were consciously mouthing a buzzword of the PC Dictatorship. You simply went with the flow.

What are you talking about? I never mentioned humankind. Oh yes, I did, way back posts ago. What's wrong with it, it's a perfectly valid word in its own right.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #56
perfectly valid word

It's part of the PC newspeak vocabulary. Some people don't even recognise it as such, others are sensitive to attemtps to contaminate and ideologise the language. To each their own!
Atch 17 | 2,843
28 Oct 2015  #57
It's part of the PC newspeak vocabulary.

No, it's a much older word than that. Human beings have existed for quite a long time Polly.

Some people don't even recognise it as such, others are sensitive to attemtps to contaminate and ideologise the language.

You poor, precious, sensitive darling. You should really lock yourself away in a monastery so that you're not further contaminated and I'm sure the missus as you refer to her would be happy to go to a nunnery, after all she couldn't be left in the world to be contaminated. God love her, the poor woman what she has to put up with.........
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #58
much older word

The feminist word police need you. Planning a bit of moonlighting, then read on:
freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2721460/posts
Atch 17 | 2,843
28 Oct 2015  #59
Yes, but this is nothing to do with feminism. This is to do with language and how it constantly evolves. Loan words, foreign expressions, techno jargon etc. Personally I find text-speak as I call it with all that 4u, etc far more cringe inducing.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 Oct 2015  #60
lock yourself away

That would never do. The Great St JP2 said as Catholics we must all evangelise the world at work and play at home and away -- and not just priests and nuns but plumbers, writers, home-makers, taxi drivers, teachers, journalists, carpenters, whoever....


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