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The "Rudification" Of Society - Is This Happening In Poland As Well?


Marek11111 9 | 808
14 Sep 2010 #91
Bush did not win florida:

Bush did not win ohio:

and this is only in United States where a deserter can become a president and then lie and take country to war break constitution, order a torture then admit it and still be a free man only in America.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
14 Sep 2010 #92
and this is only in United States where a deserter can become a president and then lie and take country to war break constitution, order a torture then admit it
and still be a free man only in America

And yet Obama is still worse.
Marek11111 9 | 808
14 Sep 2010 #93
i do not think so, no one can be worse then deserted bush.
I say he is about the same as nothing has change
Babinich 1 | 455
14 Sep 2010 #94
what does secularism and atheism have in common with left wing ? I don't see the connection.

Besides, if one protests against something, does it make him a left winger?

In Europe secularism is the religion.

The issues that preoccupy most Europeans are material ones: How many hours per week will I have to work? How much annual vacation time will I have? How many social benefits can I garner? How can my country avoid fighting against anyone or for anyone?

Why?

There are two reasons: secularism and socialism (welfare).

Even if one holds that religion is false, only a close minded secularist can deny that religion was the driving force for nearly all the uniquely great art, literature, economic and even scientific advances of the West.

Religion in the West raised all the great philosophical questions: Why are we here? Is there purpose to existence? Is there life after death? Are morals objective or only a matter of personal preference? Do rights come from the state or from the Creator?

Religion posits: We are here because God put us here. There is purpose to life. Good and evil do exist. Human rights exist for everyone because they come from God.

Secularism is vampire; it takes life: We just happened, death is the end, we are no more significant than any other creature on this planet.

With secularism good and evil become subjective opinions.

It was G. K. Chesterton that noted when people stop believing in God they don’t believe in nothing, they believe in anything.

Some recent secularist ideologies: Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, Fascism, Maoism, and Nazism.

What about the "new religions" of the late 20th and now 21st centuries being pushed by left leaning indoctrinators? Some current examples are social justice (The Great Society) , wealth redistribution & environmentalism (global warming now climate change).

The secularist state destroys creativity: Why do anything for yourself when the state will do it for you? Why take care of others when the state will do it for you? Why have ambition when the state is there to ensure that few or no individuals are rewarded more than others?

No; left wingers and secularists have a great many similarities.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
14 Sep 2010 #95
With secularism good and evil become subjective opinions.

left wingers and secularists have a great many similarities.

Good post, Bab.
Bzibzioh
14 Sep 2010 #96
In Europe secularism is the religion.

Secularism and ecology is now the new religion of the millennium. All nature-based spirituality, like this Avatar nonsense presenting nature as “a divinity to worship”.

I read not long ago about Aleksander Solzhenitsyn's speech when he accepted an honorary degree from Harvard University in 1978. He said that the Western world has lost its civil courage, accused the West of blind arrogance, of material abundance coupled with spiritual poverty. Acknowledging the wealth and security provided by the capitalist welfare states, he warned that such security would be addictive and enervating. He dourly indicted the mendacity of the press, the decadence of art, the mediocrity of our leaders and the broad conformity of opinion imposed more by fashion than censorship. He spoke of the "revolting invasion of publicity...TV stupor ...intolerable music."

Worst of all, the gift of freedom had been abused and debased in the West: "Destructive and irresponsible freedom has been granted boundless space." This perversion of the doctrine of rights had grown out of a benevolent humanism whose hallmark was the denial of evil. But evil did exist and in fact had grown stronger as we grew weaker. "Facing such a danger, with such historical values in your past, at such a high level of realization of freedom and apparently of devotion to freedom, how is it possible to lose to such an extent the will to defend oneself?"

He had a point.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,684
14 Sep 2010 #97
Secularism and ecology is now the new religion of the millennium.

I wouldn't call it a "new religion" but else there is nothing wrong with that...;)

As a non-monotheistic follower I'm quite comfy with not getting a dominant religion shoved down my throat daily against my will...
And living in a green, healthy environment is just great, it's just good for us, period! :)

But evil did exist and in fact had grown stronger as we grew weaker. "Facing such a danger,

What evil did he mean in 1978? The Communists???

And for the rest, his speech reminds me about the recurring ranting every grown up generation does about the current "impossible" youth...;)
It is as regular as it is wrong!

He forgot that "soft and weak and decadent" West won all wars against Facism, Communism and other 'isms!

I'm quite sure alot of modern Islamists see the West like Solshenyzin did, not to speak of many Westerners who see the West now as did Solshenyzin in 1978...but still the Islamists will lose this war in the end too.

Maybe there is much more to the "soft and decadent" West than you (and it's enemies) think?
Barney 16 | 1,636
14 Sep 2010 #98
The secularist state destroys creativity: Why do anything for yourself when the state will do it for you? Why take care of others when the state will do it for you? Why have ambition when the state is there to ensure that few or no individuals are rewarded more than others?

The idea of no big government is working well for Somalia.

The issues that preoccupy most Europeans are material ones: How many hours per week will I have to work? How much annual vacation time will I have? How many social benefits can I garner? How can my country avoid fighting against anyone or for anyone?

And Americans offer every suffering to God as some kind of penance? no complaints about working conditions holidays or pay.

(I dont get the last bit surely you are not suggesting that militarism is some form of religious duty)

He spoke of the "revolting invasion of publicity...TV stupor ...intolerable music."

Unbridled consumerism the inevitable result of an unbridled free market.
(Keep this ideology quiet, it almost bankrupted us but we like it.)
convex 20 | 3,928
14 Sep 2010 #99
The idea of no big government is working well for Somalia.

And Switzerland. Big government is an analogy for central government, not lack of government all together.

Unbridled consumerism the inevitable result of an unbridled free market.
(Keep this ideology quiet, it almost bankrupted us but we like it.)

What free market? Consumerism is a government policy supported by regulation to keep barriers for entry into business high (not being able to do anything but buy crap with your money), and tax payer financed subsidies to consume.
Barney 16 | 1,636
14 Sep 2010 #100
Big government is an analogy for central government

Big Government is used in a scatter gun approach to political debate never focused just like the word liberal.

What free market?

My point is its another thing that doesnt exist yet is held dear in the hearts of many.
poland_
14 Sep 2010 #101
It's a scary phaenomena and I for one don't believe it comes forth out of "realism", a thing on which hatemongerers are claiming to base themselves upon, but more out of either fear, simplicity or unhappiness with the current economic situation.

Firstly, I would like to say that "post 95 by Babinich" sums things up very well,but I would like to add two penneth. Liberalism and Secularism: One and the Same. The ideology of L and S are responsible for the breakdown of the family unit in the western hemisphere. The western world has now moved away from the belief of the family to the greed of the individual. With the significant numbers of Polish migrant workers moving to western european countries in search of financial gain, it is inevitable that a number of the migrants will return to Poland, having been infected with this ideology.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,684
14 Sep 2010 #102
Yeah...they should be burned on stakes! *shakes fist*
Seanus 15 | 19,672
14 Sep 2010 #103
No rudification needed. Already very rudified ;) ;) Nah, you just need to connect with some people and they'll connect with you, hopefully. Some old cnuts here are beyond hope. Japanese and Polish old people would get on like a house on fire.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,437
14 Sep 2010 #104
The issues that preoccupy most Europeans are material ones: How many hours per week will I have to work? How much annual vacation time will I have? How many social benefits can I garner? How can my country avoid fighting against anyone or for anyone?

those are the issues which preoccupy Americans too.

secularism and socialism (welfare).

socialism does not equal welfare. There are no socialist countries in Europe.

Even if one holds that religion is false, only a close minded secularist can deny that religion was the driving force for nearly all the uniquely great art, literature, economic and even scientific advances of the West.

I have never heard secular people denying the influence on the things you have mentioned, yet I am sure that there were also influenced by other then religious sentiments.

Religion in the West raised all the great philosophical questions: Why are we here? Is there purpose to existence? Is there life after death? Are morals objective or only a matter of personal preference? Do rights come from the state or from the Creator?

I am not sure I follow you.

Some current examples are social justice (The Great Society) , wealth redistribution & environmentalism (global warming now climate change).

and there is something wrong with that? All those issues are important because they ail the society.

The secularist state destroys creativity: Why do anything for yourself when the state will do it for you? Why take care of others when the state will do it for you? Why have ambition when the state is there to ensure that few or no individuals are rewarded more than others?

I disagree. Welfare is for those who are not as creative, while creative people will use their creativity regardless.

No; left wingers and secularists have a great many similarities.

from what I understand left wingers are not religious then?

I wouldn't call it a "new religion" but else there is nothing wrong with that...;)

As a non-monotheistic follower I'm quite comfy with not getting a dominant religion shoved down my throat daily against my will...
And living in a green, healthy environment is just great, it's just good for us, period! :)

I agree. One can be religious and care for the environment too.

Liberalism and Secularism: One and the Same. The ideology of L and S are responsible for the breakdown of the family unit in the western hemisphere. The western world has now moved away from the belief of the family to the greed of the individual.

so the greed of big corporations in the US and the West are responsible for it to a degree.

Oh, I am sorry : the liberals and secularism is responsible for the break up of the family unit, while US has one of the highest number of divorces and it is not even secular, nor liberal - how would you explain that?
southern 74 | 7,074
14 Sep 2010 #105
The issues that preoccupy most Europeans are material ones: How many hours per week will I have to work? How much annual vacation time will I have? How many social benefits can I garner? How can my country avoid fighting against anyone or for anyone?

It was so much better during middle ages where most people were preoccupied with the question how many angels can dance on the top of a needle.
poland_
14 Sep 2010 #106
Oh, I am sorry : the liberals and secularism is responsible for the break up of the family unit, while US has one of the highest number of divorces and it is not even secular, nor liberal - how would you explain that?

There is a very big difference between breakdown ( no longer believing in the values of the family as a unit) and breakup ( dissolve - separate ).

I quote you

I have my life and react when it is necessary.

and therefore you prove my point.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,437
14 Sep 2010 #107
There is a very big difference between breakdown ( no longer believing in the values of the family as a unit) and breakup ( dissolve - separate ).

but you have to admit I have a point. There are a lot of people who marry in Europe still.

I quote you
aphrodisiac:
I have my life and react when it is necessary. and therefore you prove my point.

that was taken out of context and was directed to Plk and has nothing to do with the discussion we are having. I am religious, bit don't impose my believes on others. I believe in honesty, compassion, helping the needy, sharing with others, but still taking care of myself.
poland_
14 Sep 2010 #108
but you have to admit I have a point. There are a lot of people who marry in Europe still.

The main issue I was putting across was in response to the OP's original post in respect of Poland. Currently the family is number one, as more Poles spend time in the UK and other secular countries were the family is not of such high importance, they will return to PL with different priorities.

that was taken out of context and was directed to Plk and has nothing to do with the discussion we are having

I accept that.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,437
14 Sep 2010 #109
Currently the family is number one, as more Poles spend time in the UK and other secular countries were the family is not of such high importance, they will return to PL with different priorities.

if they did not have to leave in the first place because of work, this would have not happened. The nanny state in Poland does not function anymore, therefore people have to provide for themselves, be more creative, go abroad to work and live and discover new found freedom. The issue you are touching upon is very complex.

MG, on the other hand claims that rudeness is connected to a particular political movement.

I would disagree since our society on the whole is the least rude ever in comparison to what our ancestor's behavior.
Bzibzioh
14 Sep 2010 #110
As a non-monotheistic follower I'm quite comfy with not getting a dominant religion shoved down my throat daily against my will...

Bratwurtski, nobody is shoving any religion down your throat anymore. Quite the opposite: politicians, press, schools, whoever, are over-sensitive about religion to the point of absurdity. That's why, for example, even a heads of states in Western countries are not wishing you "Merry Christmas" in their ... Christmas address but some vague "Happy Holiday".

And now go and hug some tree and have some tofu ;)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,437
14 Sep 2010 #111
Quite the opposite: politicians, press, schools, whoever, are over-sensitive about religion to the point of absurdity. That's why, for example, even a heads of states in Western countries are not wishing you "Merry Christmas" in their ... Christmas address but some vague "Happy Holiday".

those are the times we live in, it is not gonna last forever. In the future other problems with occupy us.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,684
14 Sep 2010 #112
That's why, for example, even a heads of states in Western countries are not wishing you "Merry Christmas" in their ... Christmas address but some vague "Happy Holiday".

Well...they should have openly the Winter Solstice back...after all the Christians took an existing holy day and only renamed it to suit their own fashion. ;)

To think the christian religion or any holy book whatsoever is needed for creativity and philosophy and what else is just crap. Mankind did well before some people got nailed on some crosses in some desert and will do well afterwards too...

:)

"Tofu"...yuck! :(
trener zolwia 1 | 939
14 Sep 2010 #113
The changes we see are engineered. The God-hating secularists, wanting to rid society of all religious expression, have taken the notion of 'freedom of religion' and twisted it into 'freedom from religion'.
Barney 16 | 1,636
14 Sep 2010 #114
That doesnt really mean anything.
convex 20 | 3,928
14 Sep 2010 #115
Going to keep that comment on my clipboard for quick ctrl+v responses.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,437
14 Sep 2010 #116
That doesnt really mean anything.

no, it applies to a person who is a bit paranoid and has a false view of the changes within society.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
14 Sep 2010 #117
That doesnt really mean anything.

Sure it does.

it applies to a person who is a bit paranoid and has a false view of the changes within society.

No.
Daisy 3 | 1,224
14 Sep 2010 #118
Odin kicks their asses! yo!

n
sascha 1 | 824
14 Sep 2010 #120
@ Daisy.

Nice pic but Odin lost one eye... ;-)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin


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