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A rant about "patriotism" in today's Poland


kondzior 10 | 974
6 Oct 2012 #1
Four years back, one cheesy Swedish power metal band called Sabaton released an album titled 'The Art of War'. Among the thirteen or so songs there, one was titled '40:1' and was about the Battle of Wizna in which a Polish defence force managed to hold out against the overwhelming Nazi offence for three days.

Naturally, someone, somewhere in Poland heard about it and informed the media about it. A gigantic foocking craze about this band was started then, and it pretty much continues to stay this way. When they released a new album two years ago, one of the songs was titled 'Uprising', and was about the Warsaw Uprising. Of course, everyone started cumming all over it, even the video for the song was shown for the first time exclusively on Polish TV during the anniversary of the Uprising. Generally, the media attention this band was getting is absurd.

Now, where am I heading with this? Well, what angered me most and continues to disgust me, was all those new-found patriots that suddenly started popping up with 'OMG 40:1 POLAND!1'. They also kept whining all the foocking time 'why are Polish artists not singing about their glorious history?!'.

And here comes what pissed me off the most lately. One fairly popular Polish band called Elektryczne Gitary released a new album dedicated exclusively to historical themes. There are songs about the Solidarity movement, about the Battle of Tannenberg, about the Battle of Warsaw in 1920, the Polish squadron during the Battle of England etc, generally they're 'anniversary' songs. It was released on the 2nd of November 2010. I learned about it yesterday. Found it the damned discount bin.

This is my biggest gripe. Elektryczne Gitary are not some sort of an 'underground' band, and pretty much everyone here knows them, they even have a couple of 'cult hits'. The album itself was even done in cooperation with the ministry of culture or something like that, apparently. And nobody bloody knows about it. Nobody TALKED about it. I haven't seen ANY articles about it on any news site, I haven't heard about it neither in the radio nor in the TV. WHY? Why is some completely unknown Swedish foocking band popping out of nowhere getting *** on their faces because of a single song, while a Polish band does more than that and gets absolutely no recognition?

I'll tell you why. Because it's not about 'glorifying the history'. No. It's about getting outside foocking recognition. 'Hey, look! There are some filthy Swedish peasants talking about our superior historical heritage, like the way it should be!'. Nobody actually gives a foock about history itself, it's all about 'WOOOOOOO WE'RE BEING NOTICED

And faggots will still keep talking about Polish artists not singing about Polish history. These are some of those times when I'm utterly disgusted with this nation. Goddamn.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
6 Oct 2012 #2
If you're so disgusted, turn off the computer, go outside and be a patriot.

By "be a patriot", I mean go out and do good for the country. Go help old people, go teach children English, go clean the streets of dog **** - the lot.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
6 Oct 2012 #3
it's all about 'WOOOOOOO WE'RE BEING NOTICED

You know this describes A LOT of other people from other nations aside from those Polish, don't you?
sobieski 107 | 2,128
6 Oct 2012 #4
This is my biggest gripe.

Because people believe it is completely bollocks and more important, they do not like the music at all? The market, stupid?
If you are so involved with the Polish nation...move over here. get to do something in a charity.
Pay Polish VAT and taxes. And you can also buy one of their idiotic CD's in your local Empik.
Bieganski 17 | 901
6 Oct 2012 #5
By "be a patriot", I mean go out and do good for the country....go teach children English....

Teaching Polish children English is NOT an act of patriotism. Only an English speaking foreigner like yourself who wants to be accommodated and feel at home while abroad would state something so absurd.

If Poles need to learn another language it should be critical ones most widely spoken in the world such as Chinese and Spanish or one growing rapidly in significance such as Arabic.

The sun set on Britain a long time ago and it will never see another dawn again. America's own decline is approaching a free fall. English is going the way of Latin and within just a few generations will be another dead European language.
jon357 63 | 14,609
6 Oct 2012 #6
I'll tell you why. Because it's not about 'glorifying the history'. No. It's about getting outside foocking recognition.

It's called the cultural cringe.

If you're so disgusted, turn off the computer, go outside and be a patriot.

By "be a patriot", I mean go out and do good for the country. Go help old people, go teach children English, go clean the streets of dog **** - the lot.

Well said.

English is going the way of Latin and within just a few generations will be another dead European language.

Some evidence to try and back that up would be interesting. Especially as the Chinese scramble to learn English and Arab businesses are increasingly conducting their affairs in English.
Richfilth 6 | 415
6 Oct 2012 #7
English is going the way of Latin and within just a few generations will be another dead European language.

You may be right about life in a few generations' time, but children alive now will need jobs within a decade. And Chinese or Arabic won't help them then; English will.

Still, it's only one of a million ways people can offer help; there's no need to turn a throwaway comment into a massive issue.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
6 Oct 2012 #8
Teaching Polish children English is NOT an act of patriotism. Only an English speaking foreigner like yourself who wants to be accommodated and feel at home while abroad would state something so absurd.

Yawn. Teaching children English while it's expected by employers these days is anything but "absurd".

If Poles need to learn another language it should be critical ones most widely spoken in the world such as Chinese and Spanish or one growing rapidly in significance such as Arabic.

Except these languages aren't being used in business - English is. I have friends that conduct business with China regularly, and all communication is done in English. Chinese is meaningless - Poland (nor any country in Europe) is set up to produce enough Chinese speaking graduates, so China has to learn English - and they're doing it well.

but children alive now will need jobs within a decade. And Chinese or Arabic won't help them then; English will.

Given that employers are demanding English as an almost mandatory requirement for simple jobs, to suggest that it's "absurd" to learn it can only be the rantings of an unpatriotic guy who doesn't have the interests of Polish children at heart. Either that, or he's afraid of competition.

Still, it's only one of a million ways people can offer help; there's no need to turn a throwaway comment into a massive issue.

Indeed, let's name some more. He could help elderly neighbours with their shopping, he could offer to pack their bags in the supermarkets, he could do some repairs for them, he could wash their windows. The list is endless.

What is it with this forum attracting American "patriots" who don't live in Poland and who have no intention of actually helping beyond sending a few shoeboxes full of crap?
Orpheus - | 114
6 Oct 2012 #9
English is going the way of Latin and within just a few generations will be another dead European language.

That's the most absurd thing I've heard in a long time. All the evidence points in the other direction.

You may be right about life in a few generations' time

No, he's as wrong as it's possible to be. It's just wishful thinking.
Richfilth 6 | 415
6 Oct 2012 #10
Gentlemen, I was trying to by diplomatic. But score your points where you will :D
Bieganski 17 | 901
6 Oct 2012 #11
Some evidence to try and back that up would be interesting. Especially as the Chinese scramble to learn English and Arab businesses are increasingly conducting their affairs in English.

Power and influence in the world is shifting very quickly to the Far East, Middle East and other Pacific regions which include Central and South America (who by the way do enormous and profitable trade with China). There is no reason for this to reverse. The world's attention is already fixed there. English may have been the language for business at a time of slow transportation and limited communication technology or when large stock exchanges were based mainly in The City and New York. All this has changed. Indeed, it's not only the high rents and taxes that are driving banks and businesses out of Britain and North America. They know full well that the largest growth opportunities will be in places with the largest and most youthful populations. And said banks and businesses can no longer afford not to cater to their customers. Only a fool would believe that the Chinese, Brazilians, Mexicans or any given Middle East country - all of whom have rapidly expanding middle classes - will always take a submissive role and place English ahead of their own language and cultural identity. Even the internet is changing fast to have URL's and other programming script be expressed not only in non-English languages but in non-Roman characters as well.

The world is breaking away permanently from being centered around the North Atlantic and you know as well that places like Australia and New Zealand are too docile to ensure that English survives as a preferred language for interpersonal or international exchanges in the Pacific Rim. Face it, you may think you are popular today but tomorrow no one be using your English language unless they need it to speak to the dying elderly in a care home somewhere.
jon357 63 | 14,609
6 Oct 2012 #12
Power and influence in the world is shifting very quickly to the Far East, Middle East and other Pacific regions

Who are scrambling to use English.

English ahead of their own language and cultural identity.

They will if an Arab wants to trade with a Chinese man. And they do.

But this is off the topic of cultural cringe. We see it in Poland and people comment on it in Mexico and Korea too.
Bieganski 17 | 901
6 Oct 2012 #13
It's not off topic at all. A Polish patriot would want their children to be fully prepared for the future like in the next decade when they have grown up and left school and are looking for meaningful and fulfilling work. Learning some basic English to land a job at a hotel, restaurant or care home in Blighty or some position in Poland catering to tourists is not what I am talking about.

More proof - Arabs have traded with the Chinese for centuries. You obviously never heard of the Silk Road. Guess what, they weren't speaking English to each other way back then and don't need to now or in the future either.

Even more proof - at this very moment the most widely watched music video in the history of YouTube is sung in Korean. Why not English? Because it is irrelevant. Popularity doesn't equate to something being done in English.

Like I said, Polish patriots should be preparing their children to speak a relevant foreign language now. English will hardly be spoken in the next ten to twenty years and that is the amount of time it takes to become truly fluent in a language.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
6 Oct 2012 #14
A Polish patriot would want their children to be fully prepared for the future like in the next decade when they have grown up and left school and are looking for meaningful and fulfilling work. Learning some basic English to land a job at a hotel, restaurant or care home in Blighty or some position in Poland catering to tourists is not what I am talking about.

A Polish patriot would know that "basic English" no longer cuts it in today's labour market. Employers are demanding real skills in English and other languages - and they are demanding it now. It's only going to get worse as the years go on - more and more people will speak English well - and even the worst private university degrees include English studies.

Like I said, Polish patriots should be preparing their children to speak a relevant foreign language now. English will hardly be spoken in the next ten to twenty years and that is the amount of time it takes to become truly fluent in a language.

English will be spoken even more in ten to twenty years. In fact, the way things are going, within 5 years - it's going to be impossible to get a white collar job without knowledge of English and a second foreign language. Many companies are working solely in English, and as the moustache generation of workers retires - the new generation will take over and expect English even more.

Chinese hasn't got a chance for one simple reason - they don't care about it being spoken. Do you see any evidence of the Chinese pouring money into people learning it? I certainly don't.
jon357 63 | 14,609
6 Oct 2012 #15
Learning some basic English to land a job at a hotel, restaurant or care home in Blighty or some position in Poland catering to tourists is not what I am talking about.

Learning it to work in in international company who hold all meetings in English or to work in science, engineering or academia where all documents are written in English and all conferences are in English is however an important investment. And one that people make.

. Guess what, they weren't speaking English to each other way back then

They are now!

at this very moment the most widely watched music video in the history of YouTube is sung in Korean.

Because it's a novelty.

Si in fact no 'proof' just the ranting voice of ignorance.

English will hardly be spoken in the next ten to twenty years and that is the amount of time it takes to become truly fluent in a language.

Now both those statements are hilariously funny!
xzqbq7 2 | 104
6 Oct 2012 #16
Polish patriots should be preparing their children to speak a relevant foreign language now

Dear Bieganski, as much as I like your talk about education and Polish patriots, I must disagree regarding English.
English (and I mean American version not original English slang) is the business language of the world, and will be relevant for
many, many decades to come and ability to use it will be extremely important especially that computer programming is in English.
Of course priority for Polish children should be Polish language, then history of Poland in XX century, then math, physics, and then foreign
languages like English which should be the primary language. Latin, Spanish, German and Russian should be also widely thought.
I hope you agree.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
6 Oct 2012 #17
And nobody bloody knows about it. Nobody TALKED about it. I haven't seen ANY articles about it on any news site, I haven't heard about it neither in the radio nor in the TV. WHY?

Maybe simply because the songs were not that good really ? Are you suggesting there is some sort of conspiracy against Elektryczne gitary ?? As for getting outside recognition, yes I would say it is important and see nothing bad in that, no matter how we "glorify our history" domestically, there will be millions of people around the world thinking that Poles are these clowns, who got defeated in 2 weeks and that was all their involvement in WW2, they rather will not listen to songs in Polish... and in the 21st century, the image a country has abroad does really matter...

Teaching Polish children English is NOT an act of patriotism.

Of course it isn't, It's a job, just like driving a bus or any other. But I don't agree that it is not important to learn English... Chinese you say ? I have been talking countless times with Chinese people, in English. English will stay no.1 business language at least for decades, maybe for centuries, even If orginally English speaking countries get marginalized, Chinese is simply too difficult.
Bieganski 17 | 901
6 Oct 2012 #18
Chinese hasn't got a chance for one simple reason - they don't care about it being spoken. Do you see any evidence of the Chinese pouring money into people learning it? I certainly don't.

For you, ignorance is certainly bliss. Even a cursory search on the internet revealed how terribly wrong you are. Both the Chinese and other (English speaking) countries are making the investment in learning it:

Chinese trying to develop softer image in Africa, globally by teaching, educating

pri.org/stories/world/africa/chinese-trying-to-develop-softer-image-in-africa-by-teaching-educating-6464.html

Teaching Chinese in America

cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7263234n

Chinese language teaching in the UK

britishcouncil.org/schools/chinese-language-teaching-uk

Poles need to remain competitive and quit wasting their time, money and children's future on learning English since it is in terminal decline.
jon357 63 | 14,609
6 Oct 2012 #19
Teaching Chinese in America

Chinese language teaching in the UK

Great, you've found something on the internet.

I notice you ignore the thousands of vacancies for people to teach English in China.

In Japan, a developed economy if ever there was on some of the larger chains of language schools have thousands of branches. Guess what language they teach...
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
6 Oct 2012 #20
they rather will not listen to songs in Polish

They're fools for not doing so - Polish rock ballads are vastly superior to English ones in my humble opinion. And yes, I've done my share of telling foreigners to listen to them ;)

then history of Poland in XX century

This is one thing that seems to get utterly neglected no matter who the Education minister might be. It's the most important of the lot - the mistakes made then should be learnt from and never, ever repeated. What are kids going to learn more from - ancient kings, or the horror that was WW2 followed up with the PRL?

For me, Poland's strength is how talented her workers are at languages - I am pretty certain that no other country in Europe of a comparable size (or bigger) has this amount of talent in languages. The UK? Germany? France? Romania? Spain? nope.

But Chinese is simply a non-factor. The Chinese want to do business - the West has the luxury of choosing who to buy from.

And remember, today's children needs jobs tomorrow, not in 100 years.
TommyG 1 | 361
6 Oct 2012 #21
Poles need to remain competitive and quit wasting their time, money and children's future on learning English since it is in terminal decline.

I think that you living in a dream world. Do you really think that any European country would stop teaching English as a foreign language and start teaching Mandarin or Arabic instead? Do you really think that in Europe or in the USA politicians and businesses will find it more convenient to speak in Chinese or Arabic?

For you, ignorance is certainly bliss.

- It most certainly is in your case...
Bieganski 17 | 901
6 Oct 2012 #22
Currently on Apple's website they have a video tribute to it's founder Steve Jobs who passed away exactly one year ago. In it a recording from Steve Jobs states his favorite quote was from the retired Canadian ice hockey player Wayne Gretzky who said "I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been."

Patriotic Poles need to adopt the same philosophy for themselves and their children.

The puck is no longer in America and Europe.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
6 Oct 2012 #23
In it a recording from Steve Jobs states his favorite quote was from the retired Canadian ice hockey player Wayne Gretzky who said "I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been."

Except the puck in 20 years time is in knowing English and either German or French (or preferably both). That's when they need to work, not in 100 years time.

Patriotic Poles need to adopt the same philosophy for themselves and their children.

So you think they should skate somewhere uncertain and risk an uncertain future for their children rather than taking the sensible bet of learning the two/three foreign languages likely to dominate Europe in years to come?

China would be in a world of trouble if the US decided to change the dollar and impose (in conjunction with Europe and the Americas) a total blockade of Chinese products.
Bieganski 17 | 901
6 Oct 2012 #24
Do you really think that any European country would stop teaching English as a foreign language and start teaching Mandarin or Arabic instead?

Absolutely. They will teach Mandarin for economic reasons alone. Since Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world then there will naturally be an increased demand and usage in Arabic; increased trade and tourism with the Middle East will solidify its significance.

Do you really think that in Europe or in the USA politicians and businesses will find it more convenient to speak in Chinese or Arabic?

It may not be convenient at the moment and of course you will have to write off practically all of the current adult population for whom it would be too late in a career (that's assuming they are working) to use it. But you shouldn't assume that European and American youth of today (tomorrow's politicians and business leaders) are too dumb or unwilling to learn and use languages other than English. I'm very confident that the sons, daughters and grandchildren of Europe's and America's current stock of politicians and business elite are learning critical languages like Mandarin and Spanish and Arabic even though you and your beer swilling mates are not.

Just look at demographic trends. If America and Europe are declining in their traditional populations and are rapidly being replaced by migrants from all around the world then it only makes sense that English will bow out and disappear. In the near future it will be little more than a curiosity like Latin or Esperanto are today. Why save it when no one will be using it?

Poles need to look beyond today and envision the world their children will actually be living in tomorrow. Real patriots not only defend but they adapt in order to ensure the survival of their own.
TommyG 1 | 361
6 Oct 2012 #25
But you shouldn't assume that European and American youth of today (tomorrow's politicians and business leaders) are too dumb or unwilling to learn and use languages other than English

I'm not assuming that at all. But if you think that the English language is going to die out and be replaced with either Spanish, Arabic or Mandarin then you are wrong. But that's your opinion (however inaccurate and misguided it might be) and you are entitled to it.

critical languages like Mandarin and Spanish and Arabic

These are not 'critical' languages at all. Yes, there will be a growing demand for learning these languages but they will never be the world 'lingua-franca'

even though you and your beer swilling mates are not

You know nothing about my linguastic abilities or intentions so back off.... However, I do like a nice pint of beer:)
Bieganski 17 | 901
6 Oct 2012 #26
Except the puck in 20 years time is in knowing English and either German or French (or preferably both). That's when they need to work,

Knowing English, French or German might have made sense in the last century when all of them exploited other nations with cannon and fixed bayonets. But I see no benefit today for Polish children to learn these languages which will be irrelevant in the near future.

They will be at a disadvantage if they do because I've already demonstrated that other nations, especially English speaking ones like America and Britain, are making their own investments today in teaching their children other critical foreign languages like Mandarin or Spanish or Arabic. For Poles to continue wasting their time and money in learning English, French or German would be condemning themselves to low wage service sector jobs at home or in the few countries where these declining languages are still spoken. Meanwhile it will be the Germans, the British, the French and Americans who snap up the higher paying white collar jobs which will be the ones doing business in the Pacific Rim, South America, the Middle East or even Africa where the Chinese already have a huge presence and the locals are learning Mandarin.

So you think they should skate somewhere uncertain and risk an uncertain future for their children?

There's nothing uncertain about it. If you actually followed the news rather than coming on here and yelling "busia" at Polonia during all hours of the day and night every day then you would know that we live in a multipolar world and America and Europe no longer hold sway. Polish youth would be at a great advantage of finding high paying and interesting work if they started preparing themselves now for where the banks and businesses are already investing heavily today - and it isn't in America or Europe anymore. So while Polish children in the near future can be enjoying the wealth created from doing business in the Pacific region their grandchildren will also see opportunities for themselves when the future large investors in Poland come from Asia and the Middle East.

China would be in a world of trouble if the US decided to change the dollar and impose (in conjunction with Europe and the Americas) a total blockade of Chinese products.

Wrong again. The US would be in a world of trouble if China called in the debt. Total blockades of Chinese products is sheer fantasy in today's era of free trade. As if the WTO would turn a hypocritical eye away from such an action. And it is the US who would be terrified if other countries like China dropped the dollar to settle most international transactions. American interest rates would soar so high that the Zimbabwean dollar would be considered a safe haven currency.

That's why Poland always needs to look out for its own self-interest. This means looking at the world ten to twenty years from now and be willing to dump any dead weight luggage like learning English or allying itself exclusively to English speaking countries.

It's the patriotic thing to do.
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
6 Oct 2012 #27
And faggots will still keep talking about Polish artists not singing about Polish history. These are some of those times when I'm utterly disgusted with this nation

Personally, I'm more disgusted with people who continually use words like "faggots" on PF.

Chinese hasn't got a chance for one simple reason - they don't care about it being spoke

Spot on. The Chinese government is finding it hard enough to get the entire nation to adopt a common language (Mandarin), so they're hardly going to waste time on convincing the world that they should learn a language which is effectively only used in one country.

If Bieganski was correct, English would be dying out in Hong Kong, but the opposite is happening, even 15 years after the handover.
TommyG 1 | 361
6 Oct 2012 #28
looking at the world ten to twenty years from now and be willing to dump any dead weight luggage like learning English

Lol. The English language will still be alive and kicking long after you've kicked the bucket my friend.

It's the patriotic thing to do.

I don't think you have any clue about either Poland or being a patriot.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
6 Oct 2012 #29
I don't think you have any clue about either Poland or being a patriot.

Course he doesn't, he's just another foreigner pretending to be Polish to suit his motives.
Richfilth 6 | 415
6 Oct 2012 #30
Bieganski, you are constantly confusing the international prowess of the English language with the economic and political prowess of the native-speaking states. I don't disagree that Britain is an isolated backwater of declining import, and if America pursues its current financial and military policy then it will go the same way.

But you are ignoring the fact that English is used by 1.1 BILLION Indians, both internally and externally regardless of their contact with Europe to minimise the issue of dealing with their own 2700 languages. You are wilfully blind to Africa, which depends on English and French for its business, despite the vast wealth of the northern Islamic nations which use neither language domestically. And for many diplomatic reasons, the Arabic nations themselves insist on diplomacy and international relations in either British or French to remove any "upper hand" one nation may have by using its particular flavour of Arabic in negotiations (and there are many flavours).

English may decline - a century is a long time. But Poland's children need skills that are applicable in the foreseeable future, and Mandarin and Arabic are not a big part of that.


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