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Nice one Poland - saga of Polish woe continues


Ant63 11 | 403
27 Nov 2012 #1
My partners saga of Polish woe continues.

Yesterday an appeal was heard in the higher court about her children staying with their father for Christmas. It all sounds like a petty conflict until you understand he abducted the children in January 2011. Drugged and secured headphones and builders dust masks to them while hiding from the Police for three days. Nice fella which according to Polish psychologists, everyone should feel sorry for.

Of course the children don't want to go and are in fact terrified. We don't want them to go as the father has made it quite clear he will retain them in Poland again. There is no law in Poland to prevent this of course. (CLEVER!). We have no objection to the father visiting the children in England and have in fact invited him to do so almost monthly for the last 18 months. He refuses. The last time he saw his children in the UK was October 2010. Over 2 years ago.

We have an ongoing case in the UK for residence but there is an issue over jurisdiction which has to be heard at the High Court. When we have this order, the children will be safe and no longer weapons that can be used by the father. All contact will be dealt with by the courts in the UK who will not be as accommodating as we are. It will be an expensive process for the father.

So whats the Polish court done. First they have decided erroneously that they have jurisdiction. Obviously they cannot understand Brussels II. Secondly they have ordered that the children are given to the father at Christmas. Absolutely no thought about the children what so ever which is another judicial error. They cannot make this order at all, as currently there is a Ward of Court order in place in the UK that gives them the full protection of the courts of England and Wales and under Brussels II they must respect this order. So now we have a nice conflict. We have a Polish order that cannot be obeyed because to obey it would be a criminal act in the UK.

The net result is a home goal for the Polish courts. What has happened is the result of Political and Religious prejudice wrapped in a lack of understanding of European Law. So well done Poland, through your lack of consideration for your children, you have now most probably excluded two Polish children from stepping on Polish soil until they are 18 and mum maybe will never be able to go back.

This is why Poland is considered "The poor man of Europe" in legal circles. A lack of vision.

Don't for a moment think our case is unique. This sort of thing is happening every day in Poland. It's way past time for change.
Ironside 49 | 10,377
27 Nov 2012 #2
. What has happened is the result of Political and Religious prejudice wrapped in a lack of understanding of European Law.

I would say those are your stipulation!

. A lack of vision.

Make up your mind1

This is why Poland is considered "The poor man of Europe" in legal circles.

If Poland would go about sorting out her problems, your legal circles in Europe would scream murder like in Hungary case!Am I wrong?
berni23 7 | 379
27 Nov 2012 #3
he abducted the children in January 2011. Drugged and secured headphones and builders dust masks to them while hiding from the Police for three days.

Wasnt he convicted for that? Sounds like serious crimes to me.

The net result is a home goal for the Polish courts.

Dont you have a Polish lawyer working on that?
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
27 Nov 2012 #4
So well done Poland, through your lack of consideration for your children, you have now most probably excluded two Polish children from stepping on Polish soil until they are 18 and mum maybe will never be able to go back.

We all know Poland is a person and yes (he or she?) really ought to go meet with England in a neutral place to discuss this one. Maybe over a coffee?
OP Ant63 11 | 403
27 Nov 2012 #5
I would say those are your stipulation!

No. The Hague convention and Brussels I I stipulate the Law. They provide for circumstances were there are cross border disputes. They define very clear articles. I was polite about what I said. The fact is Poland signed up for these laws. It was not as simple as a signature. They went before the Supreme Court which at the time said Polish Law was incompatible and that Polish Law should be changed. They did nothing. So now Poland looks ridiculous.

Make up your mind1

Maybe you didn't understand what I was saying. The court showed a lack of vision because it was blind to the fact of the result of its actions. (which are incorrect anyway)

If Poland would go about sorting out her problems, your legal circles in Europe would scream murder like in Hungary case!Am I wrong?

More info on the Hungary case please. I am not aware of this. England for sure would be very happy if Poland straightened itself out. A lot of Polish citizens in England would be extremely happy. The British goverment would be happy as it would save a fortune on legal fees.

Most importantly children would feel safe. How would you like to be a 6 year old child worrying that someone might take you off the street at any moment and that there is nobody or no organization that can help you in Poland?
TommyG 1 | 361
27 Nov 2012 #6
So well done Poland, through your lack of consideration for your children, you have now most probably excluded two Polish children from stepping on Polish soil until they are 18 and mum maybe will never be able to go back.

Of course the children don't want to go and... We don't want them to go

If you, your missus and her children don't want to live in Poland that's fine. Don't live or holiday there. Blaming a whole country for your situation is a little bit sad...

Get a lawyer on the case and get on with your lives.
OP Ant63 11 | 403
27 Nov 2012 #7
Wasnt he convicted for that? Sounds like serious crimes to me.

No he is the father he is allowed to do that under Polish Law. The Polish court made it clear that this was not for discussion.

Dont you have a Polish lawyer working on that?

Of course. Damned expensive it is as well. We have English lawyers advising our Polish lawyers but they don't like doing as they are told. The problem is there are very few lawyers in Poland that understand International Law. Many advertise the fact that they do, but when you ask them a simple question like, "Can i get divorced in England?" most will smile and say of course not. The courts have no knowledge or understanding of International Law. It's a Joke.
berni23 7 | 379
27 Nov 2012 #8
No he is the father he is allowed to do that under Polish Law.

Abducting children is certainly against the law. I get the feeling thats not the whole story.

We have English lawyers advising our Polish lawyers but they don't like doing as they are told

LOL. And i always thought one pays the lawyers to do ones bidding. ;)
Get new ones.
OP Ant63 11 | 403
27 Nov 2012 #9
Blaming a whole country for your situation is a little bit sad...
Get a lawyer on the case and get on with your lives.

TommyG Read it again and absorb. You read it too fast. It is the legal system that is at fault and Poland's lack of care for children. The Law is what makes a country. If the Law is bad the it follows does it not.

I don't actually think in general terms like that but in child cases Poland is without doubt the worst country in Europe.

The reason I post this stuff up here is so people can see the danger they are in should their international relationship fail. We have spent over 2 years in the courts now. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Abducting children is certainly against the law. I get the feeling thats not the whole story.

In Poland you cannot abduct your own child. Both parents have equal responsibility and there is no provision in Polish Law to prevent it. If you call the Police they refer you to the courts and the courts want to spend six months deciding who is the responsible parent. This usually falls to the parent with the children. The abductor.

Sad but true

LOL. And i always thought one pays the lawyers to do ones bidding. ;)
Get new ones.

If you think like that you may be in for a shock when something doesn't go your way. In my experience most are just doing a job, take to much on, know a lot about a lot of things but not enough about something specific. It's far safer to attain the knowledge yourself and direct them.

We have the best. Our UK solicitor is a barrister specializing in Polish, English and International Law, fluent in Polish. Our Polish solicitor is great. I have an excellent understanding of the Hague and Brussels II and a fair idea of Polish Law.

The problem anyone has in this situation is that Poland does not play by the rules and actually breaks the Law.

There are over a hundred cases of parental abductions involving Poland and the UK a year. How many occur in total is anyones guess because its not possible to abduct your own child under Polish Law.
Ironside 49 | 10,377
27 Nov 2012 #10
No. The Hague convention and Brussels I I stipulate the Law.

I do not question they don't and I'm not going into details, I take your word for it. All I'm saying that is not

he result of Political and Religious prejudice

as you put it!

Maybe you didn't understand what I was saying. The court showed a lack of vision because it was blind to the fact of the result of its actions. (which are incorrect anyway)

Make up your mind as to the reasons for courts in Poland not complying to Brussels I.

Anyway I got a feeling that you see all those issues in the light of your personal problems. I think that you need sent somebody brainy talk to the father of children and find out would he would settle for!

Courts are the last resort!
By the way I'm not going to comment on the case, after all your but a side in this dispute.
OP Ant63 11 | 403
27 Nov 2012 #11
All I'm saying that is not
he result of Political and Religious prejudice as you put it!

You are wrong. Politics and religion are very much involved in Polish courts. An example is a Polish minister saying Norway is trying to steal our blue eyed blond children"

I think that you need sent somebody brainy talk to the father of children and find out would he would settle for!

Would it help if I told you he was a Policeman. A Pies with metal


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